So angry about Gaza: I don't care that Harris and Dems lost anymore.

[Craig234]

I say LBJ is the best president since - yet he has a huge moral crime of millions murdered in Vietnam. I say Biden is the best president since LBJ - yet he has a huge moral crime of supporting genocide by the rogue state. War criminals I'd be happy to see jailed for it, despite how much I support their presidencies generally.

 

[Craig234]

@SonOfDaedalus my like is for your recognition of the horrific crimes our country is committing in Gaza and correct blame for both parties - but not for not minding that Democrats lost. As much as I condemn Biden/Harris, I supported voting for them over trump. I'm with you all day in condemning Biden for what he did, but not in not caring trump winning.

 

[Bodi]

The cruelty is obscene as Isreal, with the support of western nations, has through their cruelty promoted the growth of the next generation of terrorists. If you were her brother tell me how you would hate.

Or they could not become terrorists like a few billion people around the globe do... instead, focusing on political change peacefully, despite how hard it is and how long it takes, living tough lives in the meantime.


,

 

[Pyrite]

Or they could not become terrorists like a few billion people around the globe do... instead, focusing on political change peacefully, despite how hard it is and how long it takes, living tough lives in the meantime.


,

Israel could choose not to become terrorists. But, for some reason, it is choosing to pursue a strategy that has a history of proving unsuccessful re eliminating Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

Both Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza are ill-served by their respective governments.

 

[Aristaeus]

I'm too disgusted to continue with this lesser of two evils argument anymore. I never imagined the U.S. would support holocaust level atrocities.

It's not all Biden's fault but Biden is a coward and so are most Democrats. Trump's best friend is a pedophile. I have no expectations from him or the people who support him.

What is happening in Gaza is likely genocide, but it is nowhere near Holocaust levels. Can we at least stop with the ludicrous comparisons?

 

[Felis Leo]

And how about those ah can actually do anything about any of this? Like the WH or more he of the two houses?

What can they do, since Dems "opposing" their actions or inaction means literally nothing?

Because fighting for what is right even if you cannot win in that moment is important. Because it signals to the American people that Democrats stand as a distinct (and moral) alternative. After all, if the Republicans proposed a federal abortion restrictions, would you be okay with some Democratic Congressmen and women going along with it and signing off on it because Democrats are in the minority and the Republicans could simply outvote them anyway? Or would you expect to stand unanimously against such legislation because that is what the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for?

 

[Tigerace117]

So Democrats "oppose" and...then what?

What changes?

No more endless billions of aid to Israel to help them mass murder Palestinian civilians, for starters.

 

[Felis Leo]

What is happening in Gaza is likely genocide, but it is nowhere near Holocaust levels. Can we at least stop with the ludicrous comparisons?

How about “pre-Holocaust” genocidal levels? Like those seen in the Warsaw Ghetto, Poland, December 1941 in terms of the levels of capricious murder and mass-starvation?

 

[Felis Leo]

No more endless billions of aid to Israel to help them mass murder Palestinian civilians, for starters.

Well the aid would still be sent, because the Republicans would probably have just enough votes even if every single Democrat in the House and Senate voted against aid to Israel. But the American people would see that they have an actual alternative and could vote for it, rather than have both parties united in bipartisan support of a genocidal rogue ethnostate in the same way that both parties were for continuation of the Vietnam War at one time.

 

[Bodi]

Where was all the crying and disgust when Rwandan and Cambodian and Chilean and Ugandan genocides were occurring? There wasn't any. Because it was brown and black people slaughtering each other.

There was a ton of outcry when White South Africans had Apartheid... there is a ton of outcry about basically white Jews defending themselves against Arabs and Palestinians. There sure is racism in all this... and it is clear who it is directed at.



.

 

[Bodi]

Israel could choose not to become terrorists.

'One is not a terrorist if one is defending themselves against terrorism...

But, for some reason, it is choosing to pursue a strategy that has a history of proving unsuccessful re eliminating Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

You think killing them all and removing the rest is not a successful strategy?

Both Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza are ill-served by their respective governments.

Agreed...




.

 

[Felis Leo]

Where was all the crying and disgust when Rwandans and Cambodians and Chileans and Ugandan genocides were occurring?

We were not providing the perpetrators of those genocides with weapons for free at the American taxpayer’s expense, embracing them as allies, and inviting their leaders to speak before Congress as they were carrying out their genocides.

There was a ton of outcry when White South Africans had Apartheid... there is a ton of outcry about basically white Jews defend themselves against Arabs and Palestinians. There sure is racism in all this... and it is clear who it is directed at.

Yes. It’s directed at Palestinian Arabs.

 

[Pyrite]

Where was all the crying and disgust when Rwandan and Cambodian and Chilean and Ugandan genocides were occurring? There wasn't any. Because it was brown and black people slaughtering each other.

There was a ton of outcry when White South Africans had Apartheid... there is a ton of outcry about basically white Jews defending themselves against Arabs and Palestinians. There sure is racism in all this... and it is clear who it is directed at.



.

Are you trying to minimize what the modern state of Israel has been and is doing to the Palestinians trapped in Gaza? It sure looks like it.

 

[Bodi]

We were not providing the perpetrators of those genocides with weapons for free at the American taxpayer’s expens

Sooooo you are not against genocide... you are against who is financing the genocide?

Genocide is okay as long as it is not funded by the USA?

That sounds super shitty, to be honest.

.

 

[EnchantedMuggle]

Because it signals to the American people that Democrats stand as a distinct (and moral) alternative. After all, if the Republicans proposed a federal abortion restrictions, would you be okay with some Democratic Congressmen and women going along with it and signing off on it because Democrats are in the minority and the Republicans could simply outvote them? Or would you expect to stand unanimously against such legislation because that is what the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for?

It's not that I disagree with the moral stance, but exactly what did being "the moral choice" get Democrats last November?

No matter what, the majority of GOP voters will NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they voted for a felon. Literally a felon.

Independents also did NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they, too, voted for a literal felon.

The Democrats may well stand as a moral group, but an alternative? Morality has gotten Dems literally nowhere. The American people don't want morality. We just saw that last fall, didn't we?

 

[Pyrite]

'One is not a terrorist if one is defending themselves against terrorism...

Yes, one is, if one is acting like a terrorist group, which is what the Israeli Government is doing.

You think killing them all and removing the rest is not a successful strategy?

How does one "kill them all" and "remove the rest"?

Agreed...




.

 

[Bodi]

Are you trying to minimize what the modern state of Israel has been and is doing to the Palestinians trapped in Gaza? It sure looks like it.

NBo. I feel for the Palestinians. It sucks.

They voted in a Terrorist Organization and have been used by Arabs and Anti Jews racists for decades.

 

[EnchantedMuggle]

No more endless billions of aid to Israel to help them mass murder Palestinian civilians, for starters.

Okay, we're having a disconnect here.

HOW would Dems "opposing" aid to Israel, stop aid to Israel?

You keep saying "for starters" and then just not answering exactly how Dems will accomplish any of this against a GOP House, GOP Senate, and GOP oval office.

 

[Bodi]

Yes, one is, if one is acting like a terrorist group, which is what the Israeli Government is doing.

So defending yourself is terrorism according to you?

How does one "kill them all" and "remove the rest"?

By killing them all and removing the rest....


.

 

[Tigerace117]

Where was all the crying and disgust when Rwandan and Cambodian and Chilean and Ugandan genocides were occurring? There wasn't any. Because it was brown and black people slaughtering each other.

There was a ton of outcry when White South Africans had Apartheid... there is a ton of outcry about basically white Jews defending themselves against Arabs and Palestinians. There sure is racism in all this... and it is clear who it is directed at.



.

......trying to pretend there was no outrage over the Khmer Rouge’s actions, or the genocide in Rwanda, is pretty comical.

Whining about how “mean” it is that people oppose apartheid and trying to pretend its “racist” to do so is really, really sad dude.

 

[Felis Leo]

Sooooo you are not against genocide... you are against who is financing the genocide?

Genocide is okay as long as it is not funded by the USA?

No, it makes the genocide even more outrageous, that it is being carried out in the name of the American people with our money and weaponry.

That sounds super shitty, to be honest.

Why? If the Israelis are going to insist on bombing and starving Palestinian babies to death, they can do it on their own with their own weapons at their own expense. Why should we have to pay for it?

 

[Pyrite]

It's not that I disagree with the moral stance, but exactly what did being "the moral choice" get Democrats last November?

No matter what, the majority of GOP voters will NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they voted for a felon. Literally a felon.

Independents also did NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they, too, voted for a literal felon.

The Democrats may well stand as a moral group, but an alternative? Morality has gotten Dems literally nowhere. The American people don't want morality. We just saw that last fall, didn't we?

There's no easy answer. No quick answer. No assured answer.

As you've noted, MAGA and some Independents/Libertarians chose to vote for trump, whom they knew to be incompetent, corrupt, chaotic, and a panderer to putin. Also, others didn't believe trump presented enough of a danger for them to get off their asses and go out to vote against him.

Those who voted for trump last November represent a de-moralized element in our society, one that I don't believe is going to be rehabilitated to any significant degree. (Being told it's okay to hate, to be cruel, to control and punish others can be too seductive, too appealing, for some to resist.)

We can point out, over and over, how trump's and the GOP's policies have harmed Americans. Have damaged individuals, families, and communities. We can point out the loss of our alliances and friendships. We can and should present practical solutions to cutting Medicaid and Medicare benefits, to cutting SNAP, to privatizing SS. And we should decry the tax cuts that benefit the uber-rich. I've come to believe we should get rid of our fear of alienating voters by standing up to Israel, because, damn it, Netanyahu et al have gone way too far, for far too long, in Israeli Governments' history of treating Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as subhumans. (Yes, I use that term deliberately.)..

We've got to stand for something. Something besides just taking care of ourselves. The Israeli Government has shown it is willing to torture and kill as many Palestinians as it wants - as Netanyahu believes will keep him in power - and standing idly by? We won't have the excuse the Brits and the Americans had in WWII, that no one knew the extent of the horrific actions taken against a captive population. We know damn well. Which means, this time around, we have an opportunity - heck, a duty - to try to stop it.

 

[roberthughey]

I'm so angry and disgusted about what's happening in Gaza. How could Biden let this happen? Such disgusting moral cowardice.

I made so many excuses for the Democrats and the political tightrope they had to walk. But this is not a tightrope. What Israel is doing is pure evil and we should be opposing it. Biden could have stopped supplying arms to Israel.

I'm so angry and disgusted that I don't care that Dems lost. A pox on both their houses.

Do you support this call by world's Arab countries?

Seems logical to me as a start.

Let's see how many are against it and the reasons why.

-------------------

Arab States Call for Hamas to Disarm Amid Push for a Palestinian State​

“Hamas must end its rule in Gaza,” reads a declaration endorsed by the 22 member nations of the Arab League.

The world’s Arab countries for the first time have joined unanimously in the call for Hamas to lay down its weapons, release all hostages and end its rule of the Gaza Strip, conditions that they said could help the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Arab States Call for Hamas to Disarm Amid Push for a Palestinian State

“Hamas must end its rule in Gaza,” reads a declaration endorsed by the 22 member nations of the Arab League.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Felis Leo]

It's not that I disagree with the moral stance, but exactly what did being "the moral choice" get Democrats last November?

No matter what, the majority of GOP voters will NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they voted for a felon. Literally a felon.

Independents also did NOT vote for "the moral alternative." This time around, they, too, voted for a literal felon.

The Democrats may well stand as a moral group, but an alternative? Morality has gotten Dems literally nowhere. The American people don't want morality. We just saw that last fall, didn't we?

I mean no offense and realize this may rankle you a bit, but the Democrats were not the moral choice last November. Certainly not as it relates to this issue. And if you insist otherwise, I will just say this: not being evil does not make one moral.

You will doubtlessly remember the bit of Milton’s Paradise Lost about what happened to the angels who sat on the sidelines watching the forces of God and Satan fight one another. They may not have fought God, but when God won the battle, the fence-sitters were damned from Heaven as well because they refused to stand for righteousness when the moment it mattered came. So too are the Democrats damned, until they actively stand for the good. Not simply for being the non-evil nullity.

 

[Bodi]

No, it makes the genocide even more outrageous,

So there are levels to genocide... some are worse than others. Got it. I am learning a lot here.

that it is being carried out in the name of the American people with our money and weaponry.

Same argument against guns. So the US Government is to blame for murderers and mass shooters?

Why? If the Israelis are going to insist on bombing and starving Palestinian babies to death, they can do it on their own with their own weapons at their own expense. Why should we have to pay for it?

Palestinians and Israelis partner to feed thousands of Gazans as food aid fluctuates

Arava Institute and Damour buy food from Gazan suppliers, with prices set to rise; organizations set sights on providing water and sewage system components too

www.timesofisrael.com

.