Helvidius
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2010
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- Libertarian
To me, it obviously "depends on the situation".
Hmm...Examples? I actually don't think it is that obvious.
What if your loyalty to someone compels you to forgive themI think both are essential qualities.
Depends on the situation.Let us say they are conflicting. To forgive someone would mean breaking your loyalty to something. If someone intentionally murders a family member or friend of yours, but later feels guilty and apologizes to you, do you accept the apology? Would accepting the apology be seen as betraying the friend/family member?
And likely, Jesus would approve if his followers loyally followed his teachings of forgiveness, while Don Corleone would be more likely to forgive those who were loyal to him.I'm pretty sure Jesus put forgiveness at the top of the list, while Don Corleone rewarded loyalty.
And likely, Jesus would approve if his followers loyally followed his teachings of forgiveness, while Don Corleone would be more likely to forgive those who were loyal to him.
I was watching Mad Men and this quote came up: "Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?"
I'm not necessarily looking for answers based on the context of the show. In general what do you think?
I didn't mean loyal to Jesus, I meant loyal to the ideals of his teachings.Please show me where Jesus ever used the word 'loyalty' or any connotation. Faith is different than loyalty.
I disagree with the last. I think "Forgiveness" can also be impure. Dunno about the "corrupting the soul" part.My point is that loyalty can be impure, corrupting the soul. People were loyal to Hitler. Forgiveness is something higher, righteous.
I'm not sure "forgiveness" is a "quality" at all.
I mean, I don't think "loyalty" and "forgiveness" are two equivalent terms.
One's a quality, one's an act. Beyond that, they're sort of similar.
You might as well ask, "Which is a better quality, courage or sky-diving?"
I didn't mean loyal to Jesus, I meant loyal to the ideals of his teachings.
I disagree with the last. I think "Forgiveness" can also be impure.
It depends on WHY you are forgiving someone something.
Unless you are defining "Forgiveness" specifically as the act of forgiving someone, without any expectation of a reciprocal act.
I don’t think it’s that simple.
Perhaps our definitions of “loyal” differ somewhat.That's a loose use of the term loyal. I know we sometimes say 'loyal followers', and you can add 'of his tenets', but it's IMO a slight misuse of the term and not representative of what Jesus wanted. He was not asking for a sense of duty or wanting us to act out of obligation. As Christianity became formalized in practice, devotion became part of it. But Jesus died for us, because we were imperfect, then his message was more about striving toward the ideals of faith, hope, and charity.
I thought I did, earlier, with the “Don is more likely to forgive those loyal to him than those not” idea.Give me an example.
Most likely.The more horrible the crime against you, the more profound the forgiveness.
Then perhaps my previous example of “impure forgiveness” is incorrect.Forgiveness = the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense.
I think we simply define forgiveness differently.If you could give some concrete negative examples of forgiveness... I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but the way I define forgiveness, as long as its genuine, then its always positive.
I know we never agree, but I think this is very profound and spot on. I agree with you on this one :thumbs:My point is that loyalty can be impure, corrupting the soul. People were loyal to Hitler. Forgiveness is something higher, righteous.
I thought I did, earlier, with the “Don is more likely to forgive those loyal to him than those not” idea.
In your mind, is forgiveness genuine if someone “forgives” another (as in, perhaps, forgiving someone a debt) with the expectation that they will receive something in return at a future date?
It appears that our personal dfinitions of "forgiveness" differ.In that example, the entire system is corrupt and impure. The loyalty is based on immorality and skewed values. The 'forget about it' forgiveness, when the henchman loses the drop bag, or get pinched by the cops, is only based on the henchman's continued loyalty to an illegal endeavor and not ratting out the Don.
Forgiving a debt in exchange for something is a negotiation.
Letting go of a resentment for a perceived offense, nothing is exchanged. It's internal. Forgiving a debt as part of forgiving the offense is an external expression of that.
I was watching Mad Men and this quote came up: "Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?"
I'm not necessarily looking for answers based on the context of the show. In general what do you think?
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