Sin is impossible and illogical.

[Daisy]

Christians think it is okay to kill little infants in revenge for things that happened hundreds of years before they were even born, so it's a pretty low bar.

And people today think it's ok to kill little infants in the womb as punishment for their own sins/mistakes...the lowest of bars...your point?

 

[Lisa]

Which begs the question? Why do non-believers do this?
Are they trying to convince themselves or us?

I am illustrating that sin and religious belief are inherently illogical. The entire concept of theistic religion is a house of cards built in a hurricane.

 

[trixare4kids]

I am illustrating that sin and religious belief are inherently illogical. The entire concept of theistic religion is a house of cards built in a hurricane.

Who are you illustrating it for?

 

[Lisa]

Who are you illustrating it for?

Is this thread offensive to you?

As to your question, take 3 guesses. The first two don't count.

 

[Daisy]

I am illustrating that sin and religious belief are inherently illogical. The entire concept of theistic religion is a house of cards built in a hurricane.

Yet, it's still alive, after 1,000's of years...long after the 1st servant, Abel, was slain by his own brother...

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

And people today think it's ok to kill little infants in the womb as punishment for their own sins/mistakes...the lowest of bars...your point?

Is sacrificing your own child a low bar?

I'd hate to have to be the one to break the news to God.

 

[trixare4kids]

Is this thread offensive to you?

As to your question, take 3 guesses. The first two don't count.

I don't guess. I asked you a question, you don't want to answer it.

 

[Pippi Longstock]

I agree with you, to a point, Pippi but we should not allow their ridicule to stop us from speaking out about our God, endurance is required in order to be a servant of God...

the apostle Paul, who wrote: “We are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.” (Hebrews 10:39) To “shrink back,” as Paul mentioned, does not mean just to experience a temporary bout of fear, for many faithful servants of God have at times been afraid. (1 Samuel 21:12; 1 Kings 19:1-4) Rather, it means “to draw back, withdraw,” to be “remiss in holding the truth,” explains one Bible dictionary. It adds that “shrink back” may be a metaphor based on “lowering a sail and so slackening the course” in regard to God’s service. Of course, those with strong faith give no consideration to “slackening the course” when difficulty arises—be it persecution, ill health, or some other trial. Instead, they press on in serving Jehovah, aware that he deeply cares for them and knows their limitations. (Psalm 55:22; 103:14)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989302

Pro tip: Atheists love it when sects argue.

 

[Lisa]

Yet, it's still alive, after 1,000's of years...long after the 1st servant, Abel, was slain by his own brother...

That is another religious myth. The bible, any of the many translations, is not objectively true, regardless of your beliefs.

The fact that religious belief still exists 2500+ years later is just more proof that people are gullible and many people should use any excuse to not think critically.

This what Socrates was referring to when he said The Unexamined Life Is Not Worth Living. Many people go through life with blinders on and never question what they believe or have been told. According to Socrates, this mindless way of life is not worth living.

I don't guess. I asked you a question, you don't want to answer it.

The answer is very obvious, even to you. I like to debate using the Socratic method of asking questions.

 

[Daisy]

Is sacrificing your own child a low bar?

I'd hate to have to be the one to break the news to God.

Depends...is it for solely selfish reasons or because you refuse to break God's laws under any/all circumstances because love for Him comes 1st?

You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” Matthew 22:37

Knowing God can undo/reverse anything that happens in this old world is a truly unmatched comfort...Abraham knew that...all of God's servants know that...

“But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead," Hebrews 11:19

 

[Daisy]

Pro tip: Atheists love it when sects argue.

Can't argue with that, Pippi...

 

[Lisa]

Can't argue with that, Pippi...

Atheists like it argue. Discussions are intellectually stimulating way to address issues. I was part of a monthly Humanist disccion group that met in coffee shops, libraries and thee basements of various UU churches or universities prior to Covid.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Depends...is it for solely selfish reasons or because you refuse to break God's laws under any/all circumstances because love for Him comes 1st?

You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” Matthew 22:37

Knowing God can undo/reverse anything that happens in this old world is a truly unmatched comfort...Abraham knew that...all of God's servants know that...

“But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead," Hebrews 11:19

According to @Revelation (along with a number of other Christians I have spoken with) aborted fetuses get a free ticket to Heaven.

Accordingly, Christian mothers who really love their children a lot will have an abortion, so that their children don't run the risk of losing their chance at salvation.

It's an entirely loving and selfless act, and they know they will get to see all their aborted fetuses again after they die. That way, they can all be a happy family together in the hereafter.

 

[Daisy]

According to @Revelation (along with a number of other Christians I have spoken with) aborted fetuses get a free ticket to Heaven.

Accordingly, Christian mothers who really love their children a lot will have an abortion, so that their children don't run the risk of losing their chance at salvation.

It's an entirely loving and selfless act, and they know they will get to see all their aborted fetuses again after they die. That way, they can all be a happy family together in the hereafter.

lol...people can convince themselves of all sorts of crazy things...there is nothing selfless about abortion...

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

lol...people can convince themselves of all sorts of crazy things...there is nothing selfless about abortion...

If you love your child, why would you subject them to all the suffering involved with life on earth, and risk the possibility that they might lose their salvation and be cast into the lake of fire?

Why not give them a guaranteed ticket to eternal life if you could? Because you selfishly want to spend a few brief decades with your child before they go?

 

[Daisy]

If you love your child, why would you subject them to all the suffering involved with life on earth, and risk the possibility that they might lose their salvation and be cast into the lake of fire?

Why not give them a guaranteed ticket to eternal life if you could? Because you selfishly want to spend a few brief decades with your child before they go?

Now, you're just being ridiculous...

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Now, you're just being ridiculous...

What is ridiculous about it?

Why would a mother who loves their child risk the possibility that they might lose their chance at salvation instead of giving them guaranteed eternal life in Paradise?

 

[Daisy]

What is ridiculous about it?

Why would a mother who loves their child risk the possibility that they might lose their chance at salvation instead of giving them guaranteed eternal life in paradise?

Make up your mind...is it heaven or paradise?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Make up your mind...is it heaven or paradise?

@Revelation says they go to Heaven. Others have claimed that they will go to Paradise. The details vary by denomination.

According to Jesus, He went to Paradise on the day He died, so I would probably go with that one as the most Biblically consistent.

Regardless of which, either eternal life in Heaven, or eternal life in Paradise seems like a pretty nice thing to give your child if you love them.

Why risk the possibility that they might lose their chance at salvation if you have the opportunity to spare them from it?

 

[Daisy]

@Revelation says they go to Heaven. Others have claimed that they will go to Paradise. The details vary by denomination.

According to Jesus, He went to Paradise on the day He died, so I would probably go with that one as the most Biblically consistent.

Regardless of which, either eternal life in Heaven, or eternal life in Paradise seems like a pretty nice thing to give your child if you love them.

Why risk the possibility that they might lose their chance at salvation if you have the opportunity to spare them from it?

So, you're arguing something you know nothing about...got it...I believe that's called the "talkin' outta both sides of your mouth" game...

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

So, you're arguing something you know nothing about...got it...I believe that's called the "talkin' outta both sides of your mouth" game...

I reckon I probably know more about it than you do.

Why are you avoiding the question?

Why would a mother who loves her fetus risk the possibility that they might lose their chance at salvation after being born, if she has the opportunity to spare them from it?

 

[Gordy327]

lol...people can convince themselves of all sorts of crazy things...there is nothing selfless about abortion...

But it's ok to dash them against rocks:

Psalm 137: 9 - "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

 

[ashurbanipal]

But what that exists can be called perfect? The problem is the idea that we know what perfection means in order to have it as a goal. What we call failure could really just be seen as an unavoidable event on the way to success.

There's probably nothing in this world that exists that is perfect in the sense that western theists would have in mind. That doesn't mean it's so unclear a concept that we can't possibly use it. To use the archery analogy: if I shoot at the target and mean to hit the bullseye, but miss, that's a kind of error. The point I'm trying to make is that what the writers of the Old/New testament had in mind is that such is our nature--we sometimes miss what we aim for. Sometimes we aren't as understanding or empathetic as we later realize we should have been, and sometimes we are even downright cruel when such was not warranted. And so on.

The concept of sin that arose later (roughly late first century in an inchoate way, and then articulated most clearly by Augustin) is a super-added conceptual layer that isn't in the original idea. Now you may disagree that even the original idea has merit, but I don't think so many people would agree. I know, when I set out to do some task or accomplish some whatever, whether I end up doing all that I set out to do, or not. Sometimes I am successful in fulfilling my intention, and sometimes I am not. Even with myself as my own judge, I don't (and shouldn't) rate myself all that highly.

Now of course failure is a good teacher, and it's certainly true that I learn to hit the target more often by examining what goes wrong when I don't. But that doesn't mean those misses match with my intention--I intended to hit the target those times as well, but did not. Both things can be true (failure is a teacher, but is nevertheless a failure).

 

[devildavid]

There's probably nothing in this world that exists that is perfect in the sense that western theists would have in mind. That doesn't mean it's so unclear a concept that we can't possibly use it. To use the archery analogy: if I shoot at the target and mean to hit the bullseye, but miss, that's a kind of error. The point I'm trying to make is that what the writers of the Old/New testament had in mind is that such is our nature--we sometimes miss what we aim for. Sometimes we aren't as understanding or empathetic as we later realize we should have been, and sometimes we are even downright cruel when such was not warranted. And so on.

The concept of sin that arose later (roughly late first century in an inchoate way, and then articulated most clearly by Augustin) is a super-added conceptual layer that isn't in the original idea. Now you may disagree that even the original idea has merit, but I don't think so many people would agree. I know, when I set out to do some task or accomplish some whatever, whether I end up doing all that I set out to do, or not. Sometimes I am successful in fulfilling my intention, and sometimes I am not. Even with myself as my own judge, I don't (and shouldn't) rate myself all that highly.

Now of course failure is a good teacher, and it's certainly true that I learn to hit the target more often by examining what goes wrong when I don't. But that doesn't mean those misses match with my intention--I intended to hit the target those times as well, but did not. Both things can be true (failure is a teacher, but is nevertheless a failure).

We may aim at things that we want, but that is not necessarily aiming for perfection or even something subjectively thought of as “good”. Christianity does have a concept of a perfect god but this concept is vague, and it isn’t clear how we can even aim at being perfect like this god as it is unclear and by definition impossible to hit. And honestly, god is only perfect by definition, not by our ability to actually assess why it is so. And it confuses the two ideas about sin. One is being in a state of sin and the other is knowingly committing a sin. It really is kind of a mess.

I dont think any concept of missing perfection has merit in regard to the concept of sin. Sin really comes down to not following directives and rules that the god you believe in allegedly has set down and must be obeyed. That is the clearest concept of sin. The rest is too subjective and dependent on personal ideas of what is right or wrong.

 

[devildavid]

I agree with you, to a point, Pippi but we should not allow their ridicule to stop us from speaking out about our God, endurance is required in order to be a servant of God...

the apostle Paul, who wrote: “We are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.” (Hebrews 10:39) To “shrink back,” as Paul mentioned, does not mean just to experience a temporary bout of fear, for many faithful servants of God have at times been afraid. (1 Samuel 21:12; 1 Kings 19:1-4) Rather, it means “to draw back, withdraw,” to be “remiss in holding the truth,” explains one Bible dictionary. It adds that “shrink back” may be a metaphor based on “lowering a sail and so slackening the course” in regard to God’s service. Of course, those with strong faith give no consideration to “slackening the course” when difficulty arises—be it persecution, ill health, or some other trial. Instead, they press on in serving Jehovah, aware that he deeply cares for them and knows their limitations. (Psalm 55:22; 103:14)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989302

This is an admission of using this particular sub forum to proselytize your particular religion.