Should White Nationals and worse be referred to in relation to "Right" and "Trump"?

[apdst]

Many of them refer to themselves as alt-right, and StormFront has been supporting Trump and his comments since the rioting yesterday.

The Black Panthers supported Obama. Are we going to apply the same standard?

 

[SheWolf]

The Black Panthers supported Obama. Are we going to apply the same standard?

What does that have to do with this discussion. They call themselves alt-right. They are right wing.

 

[RickJames3000]

"White nationalists" are overwhelmingly "rightwing" and can definitely be called "Trumpian", but it would be reductionist (and illogical) to infer from that fact that all Republicans (or all "rightwingers") are "White nationalists".

 

[apdst]

What does that have to do with this discussion. They call themselves alt-right. They are right wing.

The discussion is about pigeon-holing people and groups.

You rant about President Trump. It's only fair to ask if you held Obama to the same standard.

 

[Serenity]

The discussion is about pigeon-holing people and groups.

My thoughts are that it's wrong, dishonest and idiotic to engage in behaviour that paints all with a wide brush. What is your position?

 

[SheWolf]

The discussion is about pigeon-holing people and groups.

You rant about President Trump. It's only fair to ask if you held Obama to the same standard.

Obama didn't appoint a racist Black Panther, but Trump did appoint Bannon. That's a huge difference between Obama and Trump.

 

[apdst]

"White nationalists" are overwhelmingly "rightwing" and can definitely be called "Trumpian", but it would be reductionist (and illogical) to infer from that fact that all Republicans (or all "rightwingers") are "White nationalists".

What about "white nationalists" makes them "overwhelmingly" right wing?

Please produce examples of their political platforms to support your claim.

 

[apdst]

Obama didn't appoint a racist Black Panther, but Trump did appoint Bannon. That's a huge difference between Obama and Trump.

Obama hired Van Jones, an admitted Communist. He had a link on his campaign website to the Black Panther website.

The difference is: you like Obama and you hate President Trump; hence the double standard.

 

[RickJames3000]

What about "white nationalists" makes them "overwhelmingly" right wing?

Please produce examples of their political platforms to support your claim.

Their authoritarian nature lends itself naturally to the Right.
Their nationalism itself is Rightwing... and their absolute hatred of "cosmopolitanism" positions them squarely as the enemies of "the Left".

If I can do anything else to clear up your confusion, just let me know!

 

[apdst]

My thoughts are that it's wrong, dishonest and idiotic to engage in behaviour that paints all with a wide brush. What is your position?

It depends. Are all Nazis bad? Was Oskar Schindler a good Nazi, or a bad Nazi?

 

[apdst]

Their authoritarian nature lends itself naturally to the Right.
Their nationalism itself is Rightwing... and their absolute hatred of "cosmopolitanism" positions them squarely as the enemies of "the Left".

If I can do anything else to clear up your confusion, just let me know!

I knew you would respond with the usual rhetoric. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[SheWolf]

Obama hired Van Jones, an admitted Communist. He had a link on his campaign website to the Black Panther website.

The difference is: you like Obama and you hate President Trump; hence the double standard.

You are reaching really far to associate Obama with NBP. Trump's campaign was racially divisive and he got these alt-right deplores into his fold, because he spoke to them. If you can try to argue that Obama and Trump are entirely equal, but it really doesn't pass the reality test. Furthermore, if you really thought Obama was that bad and Trump is equal to him, why the heck would you be a Trump supporter?

 

[Angelus]

KKK
Number of members Klan groups are active in most US states and are estimated to have between 5,000 and 8,000 members, according to the SPLC.

Where are they? There are dozens of KKK groups in the US stretching from New Jersey to Los Angeles. Groups include the Confederate White Knights and the Traditionalist American Knights.

Are they growing? In 2016 the Klan said that it was in the midst of a revival with a "surge in membership across the Deep South".

Neo-nazi
Number of members There are several high-profile neo-Nazi organisations in the US, including the American Nazi Party and the National Socialist Movement (NSM). The most visible of these groups is the National Alliance (NA). A spin-off of the NA, Vanguard America, participated in the "Unite the Right" march on 12 August 2017 that left one woman dead and dozens of protesters and counter-protesters injured following clashes. The most recent membership figures for the NA, for 2012, are estimated to be at least 2,500, while an article published in the New York Times in 2011 said that the NSM consisted of about 400 members.


Where are they? A number of these groups were formed or originally based in Virginia. They have become more widespread in recent years with members of groups such as the NSM active in 32 states.

Are they growing? The manipulation of the mainstream media is attributed to a rise the far-right neo-Nazi movement, according to the Data and Society Research Institute. Links between US and European neo-Nazis are also said to be growing stronger, according to the SPLC.[/quote]

I do not believe Trump supporters are automatically part of these groups - but I do believe these groups are Trump supporters as the claim to be.

White supremacy: Are US right-wing groups on the rise? - BBC News

 

[apdst]

You are reaching really far to associate Obama with NBP. Trump's campaign was racially divisive and he got these alt-right deplores into his fold, because he spoke to them. If you can try to argue that Obama and Trump are entirely equal, but it really doesn't pass the reality test. Furthermore, if you really thought Obama was that bad and Trump is equal to him, why the heck would you be a Trump supporter?

No farther than you're reacing to blame nazism on President Trump.

President Trump's campaign never once advocated racism. The Leftists say that, because the race card is all they have.

 

[countryboy]

only a small fraction of conservatives are white supremacists. however, Trump should absolutely be associated with them due to his rhetoric and intentional lack of distancing. he wants to keep this faction under his tent in order to make it a bit wider. the irony is that Trump isn't a conservative, though conservatives defend him due to lack of other options and a phenomenon that i think of a "tribal blindness."

Intentional lack of distancing? Sooo, if I like to wear white tank tops, does that mean I should constantly reaffirm that I do NOT beat my wife? Do you realize how absurd that is?

 

[DiAnna]

The Black Panthers supported Obama. Are we going to apply the same standard?

How many Black Panthers did Obama appoint as Sr. Advisers in his WH staff? Trump has 3 alt-righters (and proud of it) in his. :lol:

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

So, the question is this:

When referring to White Nationalists and their ilk, should we be referring to them as "Right Wing", as "Trumps Base", as "Conservative", etc even with caveat styled adjectives like "extreme" or "radical"? Or should we simply be referencing them as "White Nationalists", "White Supremacists", etc?

Now, context as to why I'm asking this and why I think this is going to be so interesting to watch peoples reactions.

Islamic Terrorism / Radical Islam

George Bush famously said the following, oft repeated as justifications for Obama's stance on the matter / as a means of attacking Trumps stance on it:

"This great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil"

Hillary Clinton, when faced with the idea of saying radical islam, preferred "radical jihadist" because the other "sounds like we are declaring war against a religion."

You have President Obama, explaining why he would not use such terms:

"What I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible"

Now there are some who have roundly applauded such notion, both around in general and on this site. There are plenty of examples of threads here at DP with members explaining how this mentality is correct, because we need the help of the Islamic world to combat these terrorist threats and to continually connect the terrorism to Islam will ostracize us from those countries by making them feel as if they are the "enemy".

There were also people across both spectrum who roundly criticized President Obama and others for such mentality (including our current POTUS). Suggesting that reasonably minded people can understand the difference between the specific condemnations and the broader community. That if you can not reasonably and realistically discuss, call out, and name something that you can't honestly combat it. And that failing to do so is essentially an attempt to protect it in some fashion.

So I would ask, how does this relate to the White Nationalist = "Trumps Base" or "Radical Right Wing" type statements? The problem of this mentality and mindset is not something that's going to be solved by just "the left" or Democrats alone. It's not going to be countered just by one side being arguing against it. By constantly tying it to "the right", are people ostracizing those on the Right by giving them the impression that they are just one in the same with these asshole? Or is it simply accurately and realistically pointing out what the "enemy" is, and doing such is not just reasonable but necessary in order to properly combat such a thing?

I highlighted the issue that causes us to need to define things in very specific terms. Because of the partisan/ideological stupidity and divisiveness create by BOTH sides, the potential for there to be reasonably minded people being able to understand these differences is significantly reduced. Some ideological nut will latch on to a reasonable statement and make it unreasonable.

 

[SheWolf]

No farther than you're reacing to blame nazism on President Trump.

President Trump's campaign never once advocated racism. The Leftists say that, because the race card is all they have.

I am not doing that... :lol:

I said they supported him. They openly say so. Trump's campaign had a lot to do with it. I am not blaming the riot on Trump or nazism on Trump.

 

[Zyphlin]

Many of them refer to themselves as alt-right, and StormFront has been supporting Trump and his comments since the rioting yesterday.

The question wasn't about their thoughts, it was about yours.

Going back to the analog in the OP, many terrorists refer to themselves as Islamic, Muslim, etc. That forms the basis for some people's claims of why it's beneficial to refer to them as such, while it's irrelevant to the fact for those who think they shouldn't. What they refer to themselves isn't the question, it's how you think they should be referred to, why, and what impact you think it would have

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I am not doing that... :lol:

I said they supported him. They openly say so. Trump's campaign had a lot to do with it. I am not blaming the riot on Trump or nazism on Trump.

Actually, this is the same kind of "guilt by association" garbage we heard during Obama's campaign. Since Black Panthers, who supported terrorist acts supported Obama, that must mean that his policies were in line with terroristic Black Panthers. It was an idiotic presentation then (and it still is) and it's a dumb presentation when considering Trump. Trump is no more of a White Supremacist than Obama was a Black Panther. No candidate has any power over what fringe moron supports them. Usually, these fringe morons don't support anyone... they are ANTI someone else.

 

[apdst]

How many Black Panthers did Obama appoint as Sr. Advisers in his WH staff? Trump has 3 alt-righters (and proud of it) in his. :lol:

Van Jones, Valerie Jarret and Cass Sunstein are communists. Now what?

 

[apdst]

I am not doing that... :lol:

I said they supported him. They openly say so. Trump's campaign had a lot to do with it. I am not blaming the riot on Trump or nazism on Trump.

You just did. Right here...

"Trump's campaign had a lot to do with it."

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Van Jones, Valerie Jarret and Cass Sunstein are communists. Now what?

Completely irrelevant. Trump has surrounded himself with some folks who are anti-semites and conspiracy theorists. SO WHAT? The point that's being presented is that if someone with extreme views supports a particular political figure, that in no way indicates that the political figure supports those extremist views. Do you agree with that statement, apdst?

 

[apdst]

Completely irrelevant. Trump has surrounded himself with some folks who are anti-semites and conspiracy theorists. SO WHAT? The point that's being presented is that if someone with extreme views supports a particular political figure, that in no way indicates that the political figure supports those extremist views. Do you agree with that statement, apdst?

Irrelevent! Riiiight! Nice double standard ya got there. :lamo

 

[molten_dragon]

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

I think right wing and conservative are certainly accurate descriptions of most white nationalists. "Trump voters" is probably also an accurate description of most of them.