Should We Redesign Payroll Taxes? (1 Viewer)

[haymarket]

I backed up my views on this issue with plenty of material. You've provided zero material, as well as completely ignored all the material I shared, and then accused me of providing no material support for my position. Laughably unimpressive showing from you. There was also no petty insult in that post you quoted.

Do you want to drop it and let the thread police keep this topic exclusive to SS and Medicare now?

Exactly what specific material do I need to present to back up the statement that government should honor its commitments to those who have already fulfilled their end of the bargain?

 

[Neomalthusian]

Exactly what specific material do I need to present to back up the statement that government should honor its commitments to those who have already fulfilled their end of the bargain?

Subjective value judgments like this aren't supportable by evidence. They're just wishful thinking type comments. It would be the same as saying "there shouldn't be any unfunded liabilities!" Yeah, well, there are.

Your previous comments have indicated that your position is that state and municipal governments are invulnerable because they have taxing powers, thus whatever debt they have, they can simply raise taxes and pay those debts, end of story, and that by the way "there is plenty of money" to pay them. Really any material support for that position whatsoever, be it economic analyses, papers, articles from the media, and so forth that put forth this same basic argument, particularly in regard to states with enormous pension funding gaps, would have helped your position.

 

[rickc]

Exactly what specific material do I need to present to back up the statement that government should honor its commitments to those who have already fulfilled their end of the bargain?

your vote along with a large percentage of the voting public.

they want their phoney baloney jobs. they won't mess with social security or medicare.

now as for the pensions. they have been disappearing since Reagan. that is except for executive pensions. those plans are fully funded.

 

[haymarket]

Subjective value judgments like this aren't supportable by evidence. They're just wishful thinking type comments. It would be the same as saying "there shouldn't be any unfunded liabilities!" Yeah, well, there are.

Your previous comments have indicated that your position is that state and municipal governments are invulnerable because they have taxing powers, thus whatever debt they have, they can simply raise taxes and pay those debts, end of story, and that by the way "there is plenty of money" to pay them. Really any material support for that position whatsoever, be it economic analyses, papers, articles from the media, and so forth that put forth this same basic argument, particularly in regard to states with enormous pension funding gaps, would have helped your position.

I am simply far more fiscally conservative than you are. I was raised to honor your existing debts before taking on new ones.

 

[rickc]

I am simply far more fiscally conservative than you are. I was raised to honor your existing debts before taking on new ones.

rich republicans are only interested in cutting cost to increase their bottom line.

now if the top marginal tax rate started at half a million and was 70% above that they would find it much easier to increase salaries and invest in the company. they will either give it to the government or pay it out in salaries.

same way with capital gains taxes. want to stop the gambling on wall street and get the investor class to invest. simple. change the holding period on long term capital gains from the 1 year it is now to 5 or 10 years. that way they invest in a company instead of gambling on a short term investment. of course i am tired of the wealthiest among us paying taxes at a 15% rate when mine are.closer to 30%. i would raise the capital gains rate too.

 

[Conservative]

rich republicans are only interested in cutting cost to increase their bottom line.

now if the top marginal tax rate started at half a million and was 70% above that they would find it much easier to increase salaries and invest in the company. they will either give it to the government or pay it out in salaries.

same way with capital gains taxes. want to stop the gambling on wall street and get the investor class to invest. simple. change the holding period on long term capital gains from the 1 year it is now to 5 or 10 years. that way they invest in a company instead of gambling on a short term investment. of course i am tired of the wealthiest among us paying taxes at a 15% rate when mine are.closer to 30%. i would raise the capital gains rate too.

You have claimed here how well off you are so put your money where your mouth is, send your paycheck to the Govt. and let them then send back to you what they believe you deserve. Still aren't going to answer the question as to why you would give bureaucrats more money after they spent your SS contributions on things other than SS?

Income taxes don't fund SS nor should they. In addition neither do capital gains taxes. You really need to learn the taxes you pay and their purpose

 

[rickc]

You have claimed here how well off you are so put your money where your mouth is, send your paycheck to the Govt. and let them then send back to you what they believe you deserve. Still aren't going to answer the question as to why you would give bureaucrats more money after they spent your SS contributions on things other than SS?

Income taxes don't fund SS nor should they. In addition neither do capital gains taxes. You really need to learn the taxes you pay and their purpose

conservative

i want you to pay what i consider your fair share. this is not about me. it is about people like you.

i have stated previously how to fix social security and it certainly isn't raising the retirement age.

my fix requires people like you to dig down deep and pay your fair share. a share we will decide how large.

 

[Conservative]

conservative

i want you to pay what i consider your fair share. this is not about me. it is about people like you.

i have stated previously how to fix social security and it certainly isn't raising the retirement age.

my fix requires people like you to dig down deep and pay your fair share. a share we will decide how large.

People like me? Do we know each other? All I see from you are personal opinions never backed by anything other than your ideology. You willingly would give more money to the federal bureaucrats that stole the money in the first place. That's sales in logic and Common Sense. Class Warfare, envy and jealousy are all the Democrats of today have

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[rickc]

People like me? Do we know each other? All I see from you are personal opinions never backed by anything other than your ideology. You willingly would give more money to the federal bureaucrats that stole the money in the first place. That's sales in logic and Common Sense. Class Warfare, envy and jealousy are all the Democrats of today have

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and do you vote for those who do it?

congress is a.nest of vipers that needs to be cleaned out!

 

[Conservative]

and do you vote for those who do it?

congress is a.nest of vipers that needs to be cleaned out!

No, I vote for anyone who would return the power to the states, you want a more massive and expensive central govt. because you believe they are the answer. Support term limits and cleaning out those vipers. What part of the Trump economic agenda bothers you the most and why?

 

[rickc]

No, I vote for anyone who would return the power to the states, you want a more massive and expensive central govt. because you believe they are the answer. Support term limits and cleaning out those vipers. What part of the Trump economic agenda bothers you the most and why?

i think trump is just as frustrated by the republicans in congress as i am.

i agree with trump on the trade war with china. we gave china the money and the technology to become the worlds manufacturing superpower. who benefited from that? why the corporations and the investor class. All to enrich the rich. Now they are building up their military and becoming a world economic superpower. You know republicans in congress are against any limits on our corporations free trade.

I hate tax cuts for the rich when we are running trillion dollar deficits. of course that also was republicans in congress. Trump just went along to get along.

The stupid wall. Really? Republicans in congress will never fund it. that money could be much better spent on infrastructure. Stopping illegal immigration is so easy. all you have to do is make everify mandatory and fine Americans who hire them. Republicans in congress will never do it because they want that illegal labor here.

trumps stand on environmental issues is right out of the republican playbook. let nothing stand in the way of corporate profits. Every appointee, every position he has taken is disgusting.

healthcare. he says he is going to do it cheaper and have healthcare for everyone in his campaign. Republicans i congress hate that idea. Even he said that the republican plan he endorsed was mean spirited. now healthcare is a bigger mess than it was when he was elected.

then it is his rhetoric. playing that base with hatred, bigotry and fear. nothing he has done does anything positive for them. they sure like his rhetoric though!

i could go on and on but i am tired of typing

 

[Conservative]

i think trump is just as frustrated by the republicans in congress as i am.

i agree with trump on the trade war with china. we gave china the money and the technology to become the worlds manufacturing superpower. who benefited from that? why the corporations and the investor class. All to enrich the rich. Now they are building up their military and becoming a world economic superpower. You know republicans in congress are against any limits on our corporations free trade.

I hate tax cuts for the rich when we are running trillion dollar deficits. of course that also was republicans in congress. Trump just went along to get along.

The stupid wall. Really? Republicans in congress will never fund it. that money could be much better spent on infrastructure. Stopping illegal immigration is so easy. all you have to do is make everify mandatory and fine Americans who hire them. Republicans in congress will never do it because they want that illegal labor here.

trumps stand on environmental issues is right out of the republican playbook. let nothing stand in the way of corporate profits. Every appointee, every position he has taken is disgusting.

healthcare. he says he is going to do it cheaper and have healthcare for everyone in his campaign. Republicans i congress hate that idea. Even he said that the republican plan he endorsed was mean spirited. now healthcare is a bigger mess than it was when he was elected.

then it is his rhetoric. playing that base with hatred, bigotry and fear. nothing he has done does anything positive for them. they sure like his rhetoric though!

i could go on and on but i am tired of typing

You seem to believe that tax cuts for the rich are what causes deficits and that isn't true, there never will be enough money from the rich to fund the spending appetite of bureaucrats in DC and as I have pointed out tax cuts have not cut federal income tax revenue nor have tax cuts hurt other taxes either as people with more money to spend are doing it in travel which affects excise taxes, investment capital, charitable giving, corporate profits all boost federal revenue. This country has a massive spending problem because people believe govt. is the answer to all their social problems and that isn't the case. Every dollar that goes to the federal govt. is one less dollar for the citizens of the state to support social spending in the state. I have asked this question before with no answer, what percentage of one's income should go to state, federal, and local taxes?

I voted for Trump because he pisses off the establishment in both parties. We need term limits as it is Congress not the President that passes laws and authorizes spending. Trump has reduced the budget items for what he controls but Congress will continue to spend to keep their power.

The belief that tax revenue would be greater without the tax cuts is based upon the liberal lack of understanding or our GDP and what truly grows revenue, CONSUMER SPENDING. So much focus on FIT revenue and not enough on the other revenue stream of the Federal Govt. and absolutely no interest in solving the SS and Medicare Problems which is funded by Payroll taxes not FIT taxes

 

[rickc]

You seem to believe that tax cuts for the rich are what causes deficits and that isn't true, there never will be enough money from the rich to fund the spending appetite of bureaucrats in DC and as I have pointed out tax cuts have not cut federal income tax revenue nor have tax cuts hurt other taxes either as people with more money to spend are doing it in travel which affects excise taxes, investment capital, charitable giving, corporate profits all boost federal revenue. This country has a massive spending problem because people believe govt. is the answer to all their social problems and that isn't the case. Every dollar that goes to the federal govt. is one less dollar for the citizens of the state to support social spending in the state. I have asked this question before with no answer, what percentage of one's income should go to state, federal, and local taxes?

I voted for Trump because he pisses off the establishment in both parties. We need term limits as it is Congress not the President that passes laws and authorizes spending. Trump has reduced the budget items for what he controls but Congress will continue to spend to keep their power.

The belief that tax revenue would be greater without the tax cuts is based upon the liberal lack of understanding or our GDP and what truly grows revenue, CONSUMER SPENDING. So much focus on FIT revenue and not enough on the other revenue stream of the Federal Govt. and absolutely no interest in solving the SS and Medicare Problems which is funded by Payroll taxes not FIT taxes

we can agree on the problems. a republican congress!

but disagree on the solutions

 

[Conservative]

we can agree on the problems. a republican congress!

but disagree on the solutions

But you have offered no solutions other than raising taxes ignoring the consequences of doing that. We have a consumer driven economy that is hurt by higher taxes, we have state and local responsibilities hurt by higher taxes, we have bureaucrats who benefit from higher taxes at the expense of the taxpayers. Tax increases have consequences but are ignored

 

[Conservative]

we can agree on the problems. a republican congress!

but disagree on the solutions

Would you please show me where Federal Income Tax Revenue was reduced due to the Trump tax cuts?

https://apps.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=19&step=2#reqid=19&step=2&isuri=1&1921=survey

 

[rickc]

But you have offered no solutions other than raising taxes ignoring the consequences of doing that. We have a consumer driven economy that is hurt by higher taxes, we have state and local responsibilities hurt by higher taxes, we have bureaucrats who benefit from higher taxes at the expense of the taxpayers. Tax increases have consequences but are ignored

opinions vary

plenty of information out there to support the theory that tax rates have no impact on long term GDP growth. in fact the inverse could be true

 

[Conservative]

opinions vary

plenty of information out there to support the theory that tax rates have no impact on long term GDP growth. in fact the inverse could be true

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What do tax rates have to do with the actual results generated in terms of ACTUAL dollars collected? What do you do personally when you have more spendable income and how does that affect the economy?

You do realize that FIT isn't the only source of revenue for the Federal Govt.? when people have more spendable income they travel more and that affects excise taxes, where more people are working that affects income taxes, when people have more money they invest more and that creates capital gains. you keep focusing on FIT and ignoring the other taxes collected even though in this case FIT revenue has grown every month vs. last year so how does growing revenue create deficits?

 

[rickc]

What do tax rates have to do with the actual results generated in terms of ACTUAL dollars collected? What do you do personally when you have more spendable income and how does that affect the economy?

You do realize that FIT isn't the only source of revenue for the Federal Govt.? when people have more spendable income they travel more and that affects excise taxes, where more people are working that affects income taxes, when people have more money they invest more and that creates capital gains. you keep focusing on FIT and ignoring the other taxes collected even though in this case FIT revenue has grown every month vs. last year so how does growing revenue create deficits?

exactly. more spendable income, what has happened to the middle/working class spendable income since Reagan? that middle/working class is the backbone of America's consumer economy. put more money in their hands and they will spend it making our economy hum. they haven't had a raise in 40 years.

 

[Conservative]

exactly. more spendable income, what has happened to the middle/working class spendable income since Reagan? that middle/working class is the backbone of America's consumer economy. put more money in their hands and they will spend it making our economy hum. they haven't had a raise in 40 years.

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Which is exactly what FIT cuts do so tell me exactly how raising taxes on the rich is going to fix that perceived problem you claim? Is it your belief that the federal govt. ought to give out welfare checks to the American public that don't pay any Federal Income taxes? There is a disconnect here between your comments and reality. To you it is about increasing rates on the rich which does exactly what with regards to the middle class?

You want to cut payroll taxes again? Again you seem to not understand the taxes you pay or their purpose. FICA(payroll taxes) Fund SS and Medicare so cutting that tax cuts funding to SS and Medicare

 

[distraff]

Currently we have a bizarre tax system where workers and employers both contribute equally to payroll taxes to pay for social security and medicare. On its own, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These are programs that do a lot of good and provide for people in retirement. Here's the problem: these payroll taxes do not apply to those who make a living off of investments, and they also do not apply to those who make more than a certain amount of money. Here's where it gets even worse, if you are self-employed, you are effectively playing twice the tax, since you are the employer and employee.

What we've set up is a tax scheme that effectively discourages labor, discourages entrepreneurship, and encourages only investment. On top of that, it's not solvent. So we need to change it. Here's my proposal?

Let's stop treating this like a savings account and treat it like it actually is: social welfare. Make the tax apply to high income earners, not just middle income earners. Make it apply not just to wage income, but to all sources of income. This does mean that yes, now the rich can collect social security, but we already a maximum benefit worked into the system, so on net we'll be collecting much more revenue.

This fix will treat all sources of income equally and fix the budget issues.

Thoughts?

I think we should roll up almost all taxes into the personal income tax with almost all deductions removed. That would make tax day a lot simpler.

 

[rickc]

think about this scenario

before Reagan the top marginal tax rate was 70%. So you could either give that money to the government or invest it in your company or in worker salaries or equipment.

after reagan the owners and investors quickly realized they could keep it all.

put the top marginal rate a 70% over $500,000. no reason to pay a CEO 350 times a worker's salary because he can't keep it anyway. get rid of all the deductions and loopholes in the tax code. of course the day the tax.code is changes they will start their workaround with legislation and tax attorneys.

now you would have to fix long term capital gains to keep them from just paying them with stock options. change the long term holding period from its present 1 year to 5 or 10 years. at least that way they would be really investing in the company and not just waiting a year to collect their prize.

 

[Conservative]

think about this scenario

before Reagan the top marginal tax rate was 70%. So you could either give that money to the government or invest it in your company or in worker salaries or equipment.

after reagan the owners and investors quickly realized they could keep it all.

put the top marginal rate a 70% over $500,000. no reason to pay a CEO 350 times a worker's salary because he can't keep it anyway. get rid of all the deductions and loopholes in the tax code. of course the day the tax.code is changes they will start their workaround with legislation and tax attorneys.

now you would have to fix long term capital gains to keep them from just paying them with stock options. change the long term holding period from its present 1 year to 5 or 10 years. at least that way they would be really investing in the company and not just waiting a year to collect their prize.

Until you get the federal bureaucrats responsible for the tax dollars they get why would you give them more and take away from state and local govt. coffers? Tax rates are irrelevant what is collected matters more, why are you having such a problem understanding that and also why won't you answer the direct question as to what percentage of one's personal income should go to Federal, State and local taxes?

All I see from you is class envy, jealousy. Why does what a CEO make concern you so much? You don't like it, stop buying from the companies that pay those salaries

You seem to have a problem with people keeping more of what they earn and prefer giving it to the bureaucrats to spend, WHY? No more diversions, answer the questions or admit you are wrong in your ideology

 

[rickc]

Until you get the federal bureaucrats responsible for the tax dollars they get why would you give them more and take away from state and local govt. coffers? Tax rates are irrelevant what is collected matters more, why are you having such a problem understanding that and also why won't you answer the direct question as to what percentage of one's personal income should go to Federal, State and local taxes?

All I see from you is class envy, jealousy. Why does what a CEO make concern you so much? You don't like it, stop buying from the companies that pay those salaries

You seem to have a problem with people keeping more of what they earn and prefer giving it to the bureaucrats to spend, WHY? No more diversions, answer the questions or admit you are wrong in your ideology

i think our government should pay it's bills. it will tax a combination of cutting spending and raising taxes. congress doesn't have the guts to do either. i propose a balanced budget admendment to the constitution.

but that has nothing to do with our tax code and the growing income inequality

you just can't understand what i am telling you. once again i will post the graphics showing when and why the distribution of income became so distorted in America.

 

[Conservative]

i think our government should pay it's bills. it will tax a combination of cutting spending and raising taxes. congress doesn't have the guts to do either. i propose a balanced budget admendment to the constitution.

but that has nothing to do with our tax code and the growing income inequality

you just can't understand what i am telling you. once again i will post the graphics showing when and why the distribution of income became so distorted in America.

View attachment 67241055

View attachment 67241056

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Again and still no answer to the question raised, how does income equality affect you and how does increasing taxes on the rich close that income equality? You offer no solutions just charts that don't provide context and really have no impact on income equality. Is it your goal to take from the rich and give it to someone else? Under what principles would you do that?

Why is it always someone else's fault for individuals not making enough money? Who forced them to take the job in the first place and why are they staying in a position that doesn't pay them what you believe they deserve?

 

[rickc]

Again and still no answer to the question raised, how does income equality affect you and how does increasing taxes on the rich close that income equality? You offer no solutions just charts that don't provide context and really have no impact on income equality. Is it your goal to take from the rich and give it to someone else? Under what principles would you do that?

Why is it always someone else's fault for individuals not making enough money? Who forced them to take the job in the first place and why are they staying in a position that doesn't pay them what you believe they deserve?

well selfishly, which conservatives seem to understand best, my business would be more profitable with a middle class with more disposable income.

i might pay more taxes but taxes are just a cost of doing business. a big tax bill is a good thing. means you are making.money.

taxes are never stealing. somebody has to pay the bills for this great country. obviously those who benefit most should not be adverse to paying their fair share. only the greedy rich want to keep it all.

truth is with a middle class making.more money that tax base will be larger and as revenues rise it could relieve some of that tax burden off the upper earners.

right now we are just kicking the can down the road. adding astronomical amounts to the national debt just to continue to enrich the rich.

just as an afterthought on Trump's tax cut it added less than a $100 a month to the average american's income.