should we back Israel militarily?

[Monkey Mind]

Maybe not into the sea, but what about pushing them off the land they have inhabited for 1400's years? For the record I'm against pushing anyone into the sea, what I want is coexistance.

Coexistence, eh. That's admirable, but the Palestinians don't share your humanitarian views. Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinians, is also on the record.. their goal is the destruction of Israel.

Israel has been trying to compromise and find ways to coexist. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, and in return the Palestinians elected Hamas.



"I know there is much we can learn from each other, if we can
negotiate a truce. Can there be a peace between us?"

'Peeaaaccee... No peace.'

"What is it that you want us to do?"

'Diiiie...'

 

[Chris]

What extrordinary ignorance.

In 1940 there were a million Jews living in arab lands. Today, thanks to systematic persecution there are fewer than 10,000. Now, THAT is ethnic clensing

I am aware of the fact that nearly a million Arabic Jews were victims of forced expulsions at the hands of Arab states. So are the Palestinian Arabs at the hands of the Israeli state. Both actions are unjust and both examples of ethnic cleansing.

Conversely, there are over 1.3 milliion Arabs living within Israel proper which is greater than the number living in all of the Palestinian Mandate in 1940.

Point being? There are 5 times as many Jews living in the territory as there was in 1948 as well. Both populations have grown substantially. The difference is that those 5 million Israeli Jews enjoy rights that the approx 5 Palestian Arabs living in areas under Israeli occupation do not.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3649.shtml

 

[Gardener]

This post was directed at me, due to our past differences.
I think you kinda jumped into this without realizing where his comments towards me were comming from.

And as for Trajan:
I'll still be more left leaning on most social issues, don't think you can change my mind there :2razz:

I haven't read that many of your postings, but I have read plenty of TOT's, and so surmised where the comments might have come from. He champions conservatism. I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you don't.

I decided to offer my two cents because I do not view interactions as exclusionary and (mostly) because I think the whole liberal/conservative thing gets overplayed in these forums. The reason I react is that I believe the attacment to these labels leads to people taking positions because they figure that's the positions they should be taking rather than just sitting back and thinking about the actual issue.

 

[Chris]

Palestinians aren't Arabs they're semites, sorry just wanted to throw that in.

Arabs are both. Arabs are a sub-group of the Semitic linguistic/cultural group which inhabits most of the middle east and north africa. Jews, Amharics, and a number of other small group (mainly in Ethiopia) are also Semitics.

http://ehl.santafe.edu/maps2.htm

The divisions between Jordanians, Palestinians, Egyptians, Saudis, etc are mainly political not ethnic or cultural. There are of course regional distinctions between Arab populatons but these are by no means reflective of the existing political divisions.

 

[Chris]

Coexistence, eh. That's admirable, but the Palestinians don't share your humanitarian views. Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinians, is also on the record.. their goal is the destruction of Israel.

Israel has been trying to compromise and find ways to coexist. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, and in return the Palestinians elected Hamas.

I don't condone the violent actions taken by Hams or similar groups. But before writing the Palestinians off as hopeless one should try and understand their mind set. Ask yourself the following questions;

Does Israel have any credibility in the eyes of the Palestinians as a trust worthy negotiating partner?

Why did the Palestinians elect Hamas? Were alternatives any better/viable?

Do Palestinians believe that Israel wants to co-exist with them?

 

[Kandahar]

I don't condone the violent actions taken by Hams or similar groups. But before writing the Palestinians off as hopeless one should try and understand their mind set. Ask yourself the following questions;

Does Israel have any credibility in the eyes of the Palestinians as a trust worthy negotiating partner?

Why did the Palestinians elect Hamas? Were alternatives any better/viable?

Do Palestinians believe that Israel wants to co-exist with them?

Those three questions are all Palestinian problems and there's nothing Israel can do about them.

No, Israel doesn't have any credibility in the eyes of the Palestinians. That's because the Palestinians are ignorant, not because the Israelis aren't credible. The Israelis offered all of Gaza and 96% of the West Bank to the Palestinians, and they responded by launching an intifada. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, and they responded by launching rockets into Israel from Gaza.

No, there weren't any alternatives much better than Hamas (although Fatah is a little better). Again, that's not Israel's fault.

No, the Palestinians don't believe that Israel wants to coexist. But this is the same as your first question. That's not Israel's fault, it's the Palestinian's fault. Israel DOES want to coexist, whereas the Palestinians want to be martyrs no matter what Israel does.

 

[Joby]

Come on, we Jews conquered your lands fair and square! Now let us sit in our living room and watch our TVs on our lazy-boys!

Get back into the basement were you belong, Dammit! We won fair and square! And stop poking that knife at us- we have guns! You can't win-can't you just accept that and make the best of it?

We're superior to you people, anyway! You elect evil, hateful parties. We elect parties that want nothing more than peace as we live on the land we rightfully took from you!

And tell that to the ******* neighbors too! They better accept the fact that God gave us this land, or we'll get them too! tell them to stop having their dog **** on our lawn, or we'll kill 'em all! Then we'll burn the ******* house down!

 

[Kandahar]

Come on, we Jews conquered your lands fair and square! Now let us sit in our living room and watch our TVs on our lazy-boys!

Get back into the basement were you belong, Dammit! We won fair and square! And stop poking that knife at us- we have guns! You can't win-can't you just accept that and make the best of it?

We're superior to you people, anyway! You elect evil, hateful parties. We elect parties that want nothing more than peace as we live on the land we rightfully took from you!

And tell that to the ******* neighbors too! They better accept the fact that God gave us this land, or we'll get them too! tell them to stop having their dog **** on our lawn, or we'll kill 'em all! Then we'll burn the ******* house down!

I see that you're just interested in posting hateful, bigoted garbage rather than discussing the subject intelligently, so should I assume that you won't be answering my question on the other thread? What would you do differently if you were the Israeli government?

And get over the Israeli government's actions from sixty years ago. The median age is 18 in the West Bank and 15 in Gaza, so the people waging the war have hardly been victimized by the evil infidels.

 

[Chris]

Those three questions are all Palestinian problems and there's nothing Israel can do about them.

If the Palestinians aren't confident that they can negotiate with Israel it is just as much a problem for Israel as for them. If no solution is reached they'll only be more of the same back and forth reprisals.

There are things that Israel can do to change the situation. You say the Palestinians are ignorant, than give them access to education and information. If Israel is not willing to spend money or resources to make this happen than let the UN or some other international body do it.

Secondly get rid of the US as the prime mediator in the negotiations and bring in someone neutral. The US is too hopelessly biased in favour of Israel to be credible. Once again bring in an international body with no vested interest in the region.

 

[Kandahar]

If the Palestinians aren't confident that they can negotiate with Israel it is just as much a problem for Israel as for them. If no solution is reached they'll only be more of the same back and forth reprisals.

There are things that Israel can do to change the situation. You say the Palestinians are ignorant, than give them access to education and information. If Israel is not willing to spend money or resources to make this happen than let the UN or some other international body do it.

Yeah, the jihadists will just voluntary give up their monopoly on Palestinian education...

Secondly get rid of the US as the prime mediator in the negotiations and bring in someone neutral. The US is too hopelessly biased in favour of Israel to be credible. Once again bring in an international body with no vested interest in the region.

One can be neutral observer and still be biased in favor of Israel. In fact, any neutral party SHOULD be biased in favor of Israel. Only someone with a strong anti-Israel bias could possibly reach the conclusion that Israel and the Palestinians have equally legitimate grievances and demands.

 

[Chris]

One can be neutral observer and still be biased in favor of Israel. In fact, any neutral party SHOULD be biased in favor of Israel. Only someone with a strong anti-Israel bias could possibly reach the conclusion that Israel and the Palestinians have equally legitimate grievances and demands.

I'm sorry but I can't see how a biased mediator could possibly be a good thing. To say that the Palestinians have less legitimate grievances and demands is your oppinion not fact.

 

[Kandahar]

I'm sorry but I can't see how a biased mediator could possibly be a good thing. To say that the Palestinians have less legitimate grievances and demands is your oppinion not fact.

It's the opinion of anyone who is willing to observe the situation rationally.

Every time Israel makes any concessions at all as a sign of good faith, the Arabs simply change their demands (or just engage in wanton violence with no demands whatsoever). Arafat did it when Israel offered him all of Gaza and 96% of the West Bank. Hamas did it when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza.

There is no concession that Israel could possibly make that would satisfy the Arabs, short of the dissolution of the nation and the expulsion of the Jews living there.

 

[akyron]

There is no concession that Israel could possibly make that would satisfy the Arabs, short of the dissolution of the nation and the expulsion of the Jews living there.

Well you know what the PLO leader Zahir Muhsein said...



"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. - PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein"


The anti Israel lobby wants us to believe that with 6,145,389 square miles, the Arabs want war and genocide, but with 6,145,389 plus 2300 more, then they will want peace............Right..

Zahir was a guy that wasnt afraid to call a horse a horse.

Yasser Arafat had a some things to say as well...

Since we cannot defeat Israel in war; we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.
Yasser Arafat

 

[Chris]

Every time Israel makes any concessions at all as a sign of good faith, the Arabs simply change their demands (or just engage in wanton violence with no demands whatsoever). Arafat did it when Israel offered him all of Gaza and 96% of the West Bank. Hamas did it when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza.

Arafat was a corrupt authoritarian leader. His chose to reject the former Israeli offer was his own and did not take into account what the people on the ground actually wanted.

Assuming that a democratic govn't or referendum was held on the deal, a decision to reject it would be justified if the Palestinians felt it did not address their interests sufficiently.

Personally I felt the deal had a lot of holes in it. For starters it did not guarantee the formation of an independent Palestinian state. While the PLO stood to take over local govn't the territories were still submissive to Israeli occupation (as was the case following the Gaza withdrawl). The deal also would have essentially meant accepting Israeli sovereignty over all of the former Palestinian lands outside the territories and legitimizing the expulsion of their former Arab inhabitants. The Israeli demand for parts of the West Bank were no doubt further interpreted as an opportunistic land grab by many Palestinians.

 

[Kandahar]

Arafat was a corrupt authoritarian leader. His chose to reject the former Israeli offer was his own and did not take into account what the people on the ground actually wanted.

Assuming that a democratic govn't or referendum was held on the deal, a decision to reject it would be justified if the Palestinians felt it did not address their interests sufficiently.

No it wouldn't. Just because the majority of Palestinians would vote for something stupid doesn't mean it's justified.

Personally I felt the deal had a lot of holes in it. For starters it did not guarantee the formation of an independent Palestinian state.

Yes it did. That was the entire point of the deal.

While the PLO stood to take over local govn't the territories were still submissive to Israeli occupation (as was the case following the Gaza withdrawl).

Israel agreed to withdraw if the terror attacks stopped.

The deal also would have essentially meant accepting Israeli sovereignty over all of the former Palestinian lands outside the territories

So you're an advocate of the "push Israel into the sea" ideology? That explains a lot...

and legitimizing the expulsion of their former Arab inhabitants.

It's not realistic to expect Israel to welcome back potential terrorists with open arms, and I suspect that you know this and are just using this as an excuse to bash Israel.

The Israeli demand for parts of the West Bank were no doubt further interpreted as an opportunistic land grab by many Palestinians.

So rather than give up the FOUR PERCENT of the West Bank that would be under Israeli control, they launched an intifada that has killed thousands of people. Brilliant.

 

[Volker]

Well you know what the PLO leader Zahir Muhsein said...

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. - PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein"

This was in line with his pan-Arab Ba'thist views, but completely at odds with the PLO charter, and several pro-Israeli commentators have raised the quote, arguing that it disproves the genuineness of Palestinian nationalism (and the need for a Palestinian state). In fact, Mohsen's opinion reflected only an extreme minority opinion within the PLO and in Palestinian society - namely that of as-Sa'iqa, which was of course also that of Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuhayr_Muhsin

On a lighter note, this is an example about wikipedia is not perfect, because someone else added information about the same topic, but wrote the name different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahir_Muhsein

 

[Chris]

The current Arab leadership is probably the biggest problem the Palestinian and by extension the greater Arab world have. I totally agree that people like Arafat have made the problem worse.

The Arabs desperately need an alternative voice to the militant, fundamentalist ones which currently dominate.

My point is that one doesn't justify the other. Just because the Palestinian leadership is unreasonable doesn't mean the Israeli one is.

Regardless of how you slice it, expelling the Arab inhabitants of what is now Israel so that Israel can be a racist segregated state is unjust and inhumane.

The only outcome that is acceptable to me is one that respects the right of both groups to live and co-exist together, not segregated by law, a fence, a military armistice line, etc. Both groups need to abandon their own racist agendas and look for something that will satisfy the basic interests of both.

If Israel agreed to annex all of the disputed territories, give all of the Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizenship, compensate them for stolen/destroyed property, give them full voting rights, and abandon its racist laws, you might have a shot at peace.

 

[Chris]

No it wouldn't. Just because the majority of Palestinians would vote for something stupid doesn't mean it's justified.



Yes it did. That was the entire point of the deal.



Israel agreed to withdraw if the terror attacks stopped.



So you're an advocate of the "push Israel into the sea" ideology? That explains a lot...



It's not realistic to expect Israel to welcome back potential terrorists with open arms, and I suspect that you know this and are just using this as an excuse to bash Israel.



So rather than give up the FOUR PERCENT of the West Bank that would be under Israeli control, they launched an intifada that has killed thousands of people. Brilliant.

Your putting words in my mouth!

 

[26 X World Champs]

I agree that the UN should hold Hamas and Hezbollah responsible for their actions. The same should also apply to actions taken by the Israelis.

Israel and the Arab dictatorships should have sanctions slapped on them. Israel for its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arab, denial of their right of return, and consist violation of their basic right to live and exist with dignity.

The Arab regimes should be given the same treatment for their suppression of democracy and human rights. Not just Iran and Syria but the Arab dictatorships the US and sadly most other western nations support in exchange for oil (Saudi Arabia being the worst offender by far).

Israel is NOT a dictatorship, you're violent anti-semitism is ultra-transparent for anyone here to see.

Israel is a TRUE DEMOCRACY, one that is living breathing and healthy. It is what no other country is in the Middle East.

For all of you anti-semites out there it's time you just come out and admit your hate for Israel because they're Jewish. Iran, Hamas, Hezbolah etc. have publicly sworn to destroy Israel so how can anyone with any sense not recognize how much the Arabs hate Israel and how Israel is simply defending itself.

You all know that I am strongly anti-Iraq War...but I am also strongly PRO-ISRAEL. Our defending Israel would be for all the right reasons that Iraq does not measure up to. Is Israel perfect? Of course not but they're a civilized Democracy who are not trying to nation build they're sole purpose is to defend it's country from the hateful people who want them destroyed simply because they're Jewish.

To read in this forum the blatant anti-semitism written by posters like Chris is revolting to me and it is also just another fine example of people in the USA who HATE other people, and it's always based on ignorance.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Israel is NOT a dictatorship, you're violent anti-semitism is ultra-transparent for anyone here to see.

Israel is a TRUE DEMOCRACY, one that is living breathing and healthy. It is what no other country is in the Middle East.

For all of you anti-semites out there it's time you just come out and admit your hate for Israel because they're Jewish. Iran, Hamas, Hezbolah etc. have publicly sworn to destroy Israel so how can anyone with any sense not recognize how much the Arabs hate Israel and how Israel is simply defending itself.

You all know that I am strongly anti-Iraq War...but I am also strongly PRO-ISRAEL. Our defending Israel would be for all the right reasons that Iraq does not measure up to. Is Israel perfect? Of course not but they're a civilized Democracy who are not trying to nation build they're sole purpose is to defend it's country from the hateful people who want them destroyed simply because they're Jewish.

To read in this forum the blatant anti-semitism written by posters like Chris is revolting to me and it is also just another fine example of people in the USA who HATE other people, and it's always based on ignorance.

A statement by Champs that I agree with??? Please don't make this a habit. :lol:

 

[Gardener]

http://electronicintifada.net][/QUO... strong that you choose to join the intifada?

 

[ashurbanipal]

Bullshit. Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians for no reason. Israel doesn't try to push the Arabs into the sea. Israel doesn't teach its children from an early age that Arabs are cannibals. Israel doesn't adopt Nazi ideology.

And for future reference, anytime I see the phrase "Zionist ideology" I'll assume you're an anti-semite until I see reason to believe otherwise. And I have a feeling I'm not alone in that.

You think that Hamas and Hezbollah target civillians for no reason? In other words, you think a bunch of them woke up one morning, had their coffee, and then someone said "Hey, Abdul! I've got a great idea! Let's strap explosives to our bodies and go into a market and blow ourselves up! That would be sweet!"

You also think that Hezbollah and Hamas are interested in establishing the Nordic and Germanic people as the master race? You think they're interested in killing off all the Bolsheviks that run the international banking scheme directed against Germany? You think that they want to invade Poland, France, Belgium, and Russia in order to give themselves more living space?

As to their right to return maybe they should quit blowing up Israeli women and children while they're in Israel. I mean would you knowingly let a murderer into your house?

The point being that it wasn't your house to begin with--you stole it from the guy who is now trying to get in and kill you for it.

There is no concession that Israel could possibly make that would satisfy the Arabs, short of the dissolution of the nation and the expulsion of the Jews living there.

Sounds reasonable to me. Three points:

1) I find no reasonable answer to the question posed by Ahmadinejiad: "Why should Arabs give up lands because Germans killed Jews?"

2) In any case, there will NEVER be peace in the middle east until either all the arabs are killed or irrevocably moved, or Israel is no longer a nation. This is a conflict that has lasted for a thousand years and it will eventually plunge the world into war if drastic measures are not taken. Hatred, one to the other, between Arabs and Jews, is still alive in the bones of the people buried there, it is so deep their ghosts are fighting wars from centuries past. I was raised to be a Jew, and I know what it is to have a home, and what it is to lose a home. Home means a lot, but it is not everything. The world is a big place, and people are still in darkness--forcing light on them only dazzles and frightens them. I have long believed that eventually peace could prevail, but recent information is begining to change my mind.

3) In any case, both sides have participated in brutality that is hardly imaginable to those who haven't seen it. How do you forgive someone who shot or blew up your child--regardless of whether they were specifically intent on murder of that individual or not? How do you forgive someone who killed your friend, whether it was by suicide bomb or by machine gun? How do you fail to hate a people who bulldozed your home and kicked you off land you used to own? How do you fail to hate a people who blew up your store? It maybe can be done, but much time will have to pass peacefully, and the only way to ensure that is utter separation.

 

[zymurgy]

What nonsense. Zionism is simply the name for the movement to establish a Jewish homeland and give the Jewish people the same right to self determination as is afforded any other people.

White nationalism is simply the name for a movement to establish a white homeland and give white people the a right to self determination. Is white nationalism racist?

I answered no to this poll. The US needs to be in a position where they can resolve disputes between seperate factions, and that isn't possible when the entire world knows your allegience is to one side exclusively.

Our polcies have put us ina position where we have no role in dispute resolution.

 

[Goobieman]

If Israel agreed to annex all of the disputed territories, give all of the Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizenship, compensate them for stolen/destroyed property, give them full voting rights, and abandon its racist laws, you might have a shot at peace.

Except that the people that want to destroy Israel dont give a hoot in hell about these things.

They simply want to destory Israel.

 

[Sir_Alec]

I'm getting a little sick of some of you supporting Israel every time this subject comes up. They may be a democracy but... lets look at the numbers shall we:

1. Theres is currently one Israeli prisoner in palestine. Israel is holding 9000 Palestinian prisoners.

2. 0 Israeli homes have ever been destroyed. 4000 Palestinian homes have been destroyed.

3. Israel has been targeted by over 60 UN resolutions. Palestine has had none. So much for human rights Israel. :rofl

4. 734 palestinian children have been killed compared to 121 Israeli.

5. 30000 palestinians have been hurt and 4000 have been killed. 7000 Israelis have been injured and 1000 have been killed.

6. The US gives Israel 15 million dollars a day. We give 232,000 to Palestine. Hmmmm I wonder if any palestinians might resent that? :doh

I think Israel needs to lay off the military reponse button for a while just to calm down the conflict a little.