Should Trump and the Senate hold the debt ceiling hostage for the border wall?

[EMNofSeattle]

It’s clear the Dems are in for the long haul on the Shutdown, but the debt ceiling is going to reach its limit in March, so the question is simple, since it would likely cause credit rating downgrades and maybe even default if we don’t raise the credit limit, should Trump and McConnell refuse to raise it? This has an added benefit, if the Dems choose a default in the countries debts it will kill any prayer of liberal social policies after the next elections if treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

It’s clear the Dems are in for the long haul on the Shutdown, but the debt ceiling is going to reach its limit in March, so the question is simple, since it would likely cause credit rating downgrades and maybe even default if we don’t raise the credit limit, should Trump and McConnell refuse to raise it? This has an added benefit, if the Dems choose a default in the countries debts it will kill any prayer of liberal social policies after the next elections if treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status

There is no benefit to a credit downgrade. The government already runs at a deficit so a downgrade makes it more expensive for us to finance our debt.

Moreover, is it liberals who are increasing the deficit? The deficit seems to expand under Republicans like Trump, G.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. They cut taxes and increase military spending. The tax cuts never pay for themselves.

And does the border wall make financial sense? Would it be effective enough at limiting illegal immigration to pay for itself? Does illegal immigration hurt or help the economy considering that we need the cheap labor?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

There is no benefit to a credit downgrade. The government already runs at a deficit so a downgrade makes it more expensive for us to finance our debt.

Moreover, is it liberals who are increasing the deficit? The deficit seems to expand under Republicans like Trump, G.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. They cut taxes and increase military spending. The tax cuts never pay for themselves.

And does the border wall make financial sense? Would it be effective enough at limiting illegal immigration to pay for itself? Does illegal immigration hurt or help the economy considering that we need the cheap labor?

To your last question would it even matter? The democrats claim they don’t want to fund the border wall because 5 billion is just too much money, ok so if we default 68 billion dollars plus lose years of ability to borrow they’re stripped of this argument that its fiscally responsible.

The problem Republican administrations have is that lowering taxes is good for businesses and property rights and needs to be done, but there’s strong institutional resistance to cutting spending and we never get enough votes to cut spending. If we defaulted on 40 percent of our payments and all bond buying stopped there would be no choice, austerity must occur at that point

Also if the US descends into massive recession it would cut back on illegal immigration too..


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[Cardinal]

To your last question would it even matter? The democrats claim they don’t want to fund the border wall because 5 billion is just too much money, ok so if we default 68 billion dollars plus lose years of ability to borrow they’re stripped of this argument that its fiscally responsible.

The problem Republican administrations have is that lowering taxes is good for businesses and property rights and needs to be done, but there’s strong institutional resistance to cutting spending and we never get enough votes to cut spending. If we defaulted on 40 percent of our payments and all bond buying stopped there would be no choice, austerity must occur at that point

Also if the US descends into massive recession it would cut back on illegal immigration too..


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The amount of money is actually kind of irrelevant. The primary issues are that giving Trump his wall will mean he can shut down the government every time a spending bill is due and he can just get everything he wants, and of course they would be rewarding his lie that Mexico would fund the wall, incentivizing him to lie about every important issue that comes up.

Besides, Trump has already stated that the only reason he won't accept the House's new bill is "he would look foolish."

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The amount of money is actually kind of irrelevant. The primary issues are that giving Trump his wall will mean he can shut down the government every time a spending bill is due and he can just get everything he wants. Also, they would be rewarding his lie that Mexico would fund the wall.

Besides, Trump has already stated that the only reason he won't accept the House's new bill is "he would look foolish."

That’s why the debt ceiling is a better hostage. Even if the democrats win elections the US will be unable to borrow new money for years until it pays back years of defaulted payments and the money it can borrow will be at payday loan interest rates


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[Cardinal]

That’s why the debt ceiling is a better hostage. Even if the democrats win elections the US will be unable to borrow new money for years until it pays back years of defaulted payments and the money it can borrow will be at payday loan interest rates


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Well, I guess Republicans should let the House's bill come to a vote then.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Well, I guess Republicans should let the House's bill come to a vote then.

No. I’m saying they should refuse any bill to raise the debt ceiling without the money, leave the government shut down, im theorizing a plan of progressive coercion.


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[Cardinal]

No. I’m saying they should refuse any bill to raise the debt ceiling without the money, leave the government shut down, im theorizing a plan of progressive coercion.


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All you're doing is trading one kind of blackmail for another, which brings us right back to the same two reasons why Democrats could never give him what he wants.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

All you're doing is trading one kind of blackmail for another, which brings us right back to the same two reasons why Democrats could never give him what he wants.

Well the fact is the democrats cannot be permitted to simply run rough over the other party. If they do then refusing to work on the important stuff is a justifiable strategy.


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[Cardinal]

Well the fact is the democrats cannot be permitted to simply run rough over the other party. If they do then refusing to work on the important stuff is a justifiable strategy.


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It's a little late for you to try shifting blame now. Your own thread title says, "Should Trump and the Senate hold the debt ceiling hostage for the border wall?"

You already announced your understanding that it's Trump and the Republicans that are fully responsible for the shutdown, which means you know full well that it's the Republicans that are running roughshod over the other party.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It's a little late for you to try shifting blame. Your own thread title says, "Should Trump and the Senate hold the debt ceiling hostage for the border wall?"

You already announced your understanding that it's Trump and the Republicans that are fully responsible for the shutdown.

Well congrats, you’ve won the most pointless prize in the universe competition. It doesn’t matter who’s responsible. Only who wins


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[Cardinal]

Well congrats, you’ve won the most pointless prize in the universe competition. It doesn’t matter who’s responsible. Only who wins


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It clearly mattered enough to you who was responsible when you gave full ownership of the shutdown to Republicans when you made your thread title.

 

[Mr Person]

It’s clear the Dems are in for the long haul on the Shutdown, but the debt ceiling is going to reach its limit in March, so the question is simple, since it would likely cause credit rating downgrades and maybe even default if we don’t raise the credit limit, should Trump and McConnell refuse to raise it? This has an added benefit, if the Dems choose a default in the countries debts it will kill any prayer of liberal social policies after the next elections if treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status

Oh dear.

I thought patriotism was looking out for the country, not repeatedly taking the budget/federal workers/nation hostage and issuing demands. Yet that's what you (apparently) and the people you lot vote for have kept doing. Nevermind meeting the Dems somewhere in the middle. But again and again, the GOP decides to force a shutdown and demand concessions. How on Earth is this representing "the people"?

What...because you think everything they do is right? No, not even that would defend it.





I really do have to worry though. What you say sounds like POE swill given how ridiculously it ends, but do you actually think it would somehow work in America's benefit if this was a headline: "treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status"?

Are your posts really worth that little, that is, as little as they would be worth if you really believe there's some kind of advantage to causing US bonds to become junk status? If you're willing to do something so dishonest as to blame the Democrats for a hypothetical shutdown you have specifically said resulted from the GOP's decision?

PS: Your word was "decides". There's no wiggle room to say that that's not you saying it was their "decision".

 

[MovingPictures]

The amount of money is actually kind of irrelevant. The primary issues are that giving Trump his wall will mean he can shut down the government every time a spending bill is due and he can just get everything he wants, and of course they would be rewarding his lie that Mexico would fund the wall, incentivizing him to lie about every important issue that comes up.

Besides, Trump has already stated that the only reason he won't accept the House's new bill is "he would look foolish."

Unfortunately, the Democrats have been giving into Republican hostage games since the 90's, and it has taught the latter that they can get whatever they want by holding the government up for ransom, and the Democrats will give them what they want.

It's my hope that they won't give in this time. Pelosi is talking a tough game in saying she is not interested in a trade with Trump (DACA for wall funding), but she's folded in these ransom games, whenever the Republicans put her to the test, so I'm not going to be surprised if the Dems do a 180 a the last minute.

 

[trouble13]

It’s clear the Dems are in for the long haul on the Shutdown, but the debt ceiling is going to reach its limit in March, so the question is simple, since it would likely cause credit rating downgrades and maybe even default if we don’t raise the credit limit, should Trump and McConnell refuse to raise it? This has an added benefit, if the Dems choose a default in the countries debts it will kill any prayer of liberal social policies after the next elections if treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status

Of I were Trump i would announce that i will only pass clean Bill's until he gets his funding. I would not allow the gov to go into default. There just would be no goodies for any of them until they fix the border.

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[trouble13]

To your last question would it even matter? The democrats claim they don’t want to fund the border wall because 5 billion is just too much money, ok so if we default 68 billion dollars plus lose years of ability to borrow they’re stripped of this argument that its fiscally responsible.

The problem Republican administrations have is that lowering taxes is good for businesses and property rights and needs to be done, but there’s strong institutional resistance to cutting spending and we never get enough votes to cut spending. If we defaulted on 40 percent of our payments and all bond buying stopped there would be no choice, austerity must occur at that point

Also if the US descends into massive recession it would cut back on illegal immigration too..


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That's a really dark perspective akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater but doing it intentionally. Remind me to never piss you off lol

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[Mycroft]

The amount of money is actually kind of irrelevant. The primary issues are that giving Trump his wall will mean he can shut down the government every time a spending bill is due and he can just get everything he wants, and of course they would be rewarding his lie that Mexico would fund the wall, incentivizing him to lie about every important issue that comes up.

Besides, Trump has already stated that the only reason he won't accept the House's new bill is "he would look foolish."

Do you have a quote of Trump saying that? Or is that a rumor?

 

[jghiretire]

No. I’m saying they should refuse any bill to raise the debt ceiling without the money, leave the government shut down, im theorizing a plan of progressive coercion.


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Gee not much sympathy for the 400,000 that are working without pay.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

To your last question would it even matter? The democrats claim they don’t want to fund the border wall because 5 billion is just too much money, ok so if we default 68 billion dollars plus lose years of ability to borrow they’re stripped of this argument that its fiscally responsible.

Wouldn't it also be fiscally irresponsible for Trump to cost us 68 billion? If we sink into a recession he's the president he's the one who will be blamed. Surely, his wall is not worth a recession.

The problem Republican administrations have is that lowering taxes is good for businesses and property rights and needs to be done, but there’s strong institutional resistance to cutting spending and we never get enough votes to cut spending. If we defaulted on 40 percent of our payments and all bond buying stopped there would be no choice, austerity must occur at that point

But austerity doesn't work during a recession. A recession is a downward spiral where consumers stop spending. The government is also a consumer. Government can slash spending by laying people off and lowering its own spending. This feeds into the downward spiral of recession. No one believes in austerity during recessions anymore. It's been completely debunked.

Also if the US descends into massive recession it would cut back on illegal immigration too..

Has that happened in the past? We've had many recessions.

 

[jghiretire]

Well the fact is the democrats cannot be permitted to simply run rough over the other party. If they do then refusing to work on the important stuff is a justifiable strategy.


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But the Republicans can?? WOW hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Gee not much sympathy for the 400,000 that are working without pay.

I feel the Government is way too big as it is, the fact that a government has 400,000 people who are non essential to start with means that maybe it’s a good thing is they go without Pay so long they have quit for other work


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[jghiretire]

Oh dear.

I thought patriotism was looking out for the country, not repeatedly taking the budget/federal workers/nation hostage and issuing demands. Yet that's what you (apparently) and the people you lot vote for have kept doing. Nevermind meeting the Dems somewhere in the middle. But again and again, the GOP decides to force a shutdown and demand concessions. How on Earth is this representing "the people"?

What...because you think everything they do is right? No, not even that would defend it.





I really do have to worry though. What you say sounds like POE swill given how ridiculously it ends, but do you actually think it would somehow work in America's benefit if this was a headline: "treasury bonds are downgraded to junk status"?

Are your posts really worth that little, that is, as little as they would be worth if you really believe there's some kind of advantage to causing US bonds to become junk status? If you're willing to do something so dishonest as to blame the Democrats for a hypothetical shutdown you have specifically said resulted from the GOP's decision?

PS: Your word was "decides". There's no wiggle room to say that that's not you saying it was their "decision".

Kind of what I thought too.

 

[jghiretire]

I feel the Government is way too big as it is, the fact that a government has 400,000 people who are non essential to start with means that maybe it’s a good thing is they go without Pay so long they have quit for other work


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Good to know you have real empathy going there.

 

[jghiretire]

Unfortunately, the Democrats have been giving into Republican hostage games since the 90's, and it has taught the latter that they can get whatever they want by holding the government up for ransom, and the Democrats will give them what they want.

It's my hope that they won't give in this time. Pelosi is talking a tough game in saying she is not interested in a trade with Trump (DACA for wall funding), but she's folded in these ransom games, whenever the Republicans put her to the test, so I'm not going to be surprised if the Dems do a 180 a the last minute.

Yes we have. Time to stop.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There is no benefit to a credit downgrade. The government already runs at a deficit so a downgrade makes it more expensive for us to finance our debt.

Moreover, is it liberals who are increasing the deficit? The deficit seems to expand under Republicans like Trump, G.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. They cut taxes and increase military spending. The tax cuts never pay for themselves.

And does the border wall make financial sense? Would it be effective enough at limiting illegal immigration to pay for itself? Does illegal immigration hurt or help the economy considering that we need the cheap labor?

Cheap labor begets poor people, poor people require "safety net" spending, more "safety net" spending requires more borrowing. Folks love to point to defense spending as the root cause of the deficit but it might be more than coincidence that total annual federal "safety net" spending is about the same as the annual federal deficit. I agree that cutting taxes was definitiely part of the 'budget' problem but so is cheap labor because it requires a federal subsidy.

Welfare Budget - Federal Safety Net