Should there be a strict seperation of church and state?

[Donkey1499]

Since logic and rationale are in direct conflict with religion, that must be a very difficult task. Three steps forward, one step back. Much akin, I would imagine, to running a race on crutches.

Would it not be easier to pick one rational or the other since the two are in such conflict?

This coming from the Stalinist who wants to wipe ALL religion from the face of the galaxy...:rofl

 

[Donkey1499]

:2funny: now thats funny.

I shouldn't take credit for that, though. I have to give credit to Larry the Cable Guy on that one. :mrgreen:

 

[Captain America]

This coming from the Stalinist who wants to wipe ALL religion from the face of the galaxy...:rofl

:rofl

Donk, have you been stealin' from Grampa's still again? You naughty Donkey! :mrgreen:

 

[ModerateDem]

Since logic and rationale are in direct conflict with religion, that must be a very difficult task. Three steps forward, one step back. Much akin, I would imagine, to running a race on crutches.

Would it not be easier to pick one rational or the other since the two are in such conflict?

When they do conflict I usually do paper, rock, scissors to figure out which one is the right one....:rofl j/k.

I have to disagree with the notion that religion is always in conflict with Logic and rationale. That is just a blatantly false statement. Religion says Murder is wrong so does Logic and Rationale in constitutional terms. So where is the conflict? I approach the abortion problem with the same line of reasoning I gave. Religion says Life is sacred and should be protected. Logic and rationale then say there are circumstances that Religion would allow for it to be done. Thus the idea of being pro-life but in the instances of rape,incest and the mother's health Abortion is allowed for Moral and ethical reasons. Thinking for oneself and allowing Religion to be only one part of the criteria for the line of reasoning is not hard at all. it just takes an open mind and an open heart.

 

[Donkey1499]

:rofl

Donk, have you been stealin' from Grampa's still again? You naughty Donkey! :mrgreen:

Garsh! U cot me red handid. Eye supoze Eye'el poot on M klinki brayslitts cuz Eye undraje... hyuck!:mrgreen:

 

[Captain America]

When they do conflict I usually do paper, rock, scissors to figure out which one is the right one....:rofl j/k.

I have to disagree with the notion that religion is always in conflict with Logic and rationale. That is just a blatantly false statement. Religion says Murder is wrong so does Logic and Rationale in constitutional terms. So where is the conflict? I approach the abortion problem with the same line of reasoning I gave. Religion says Life is sacred and should be protected. Logic and rationale then say there are circumstances that Religion would allow for it to be done. Thus the idea of being pro-life but in the instances of rape,incest and the mother's health Abortion is allowed for Moral and ethical reasons. Thinking for oneself and allowing Religion to be only one part of the criteria for the line of reasoning is not hard at all. it just takes an open mind and an open heart.

I can dig it. Whatever gets you through the night.

Myself, I can be pro-life without religion dictating to me it's wrong. I know murder and theft is wrong too and I didn't have to learn that in church either. Also, I can see how, back in the day, that religion telling people not to eat pork was logical advice given the fact that refrigeration and microbiological parasites were common amongst pork (albeit the reason given was poppycock, the fact remains it was unhealthy.)

But the point I was trying to make is that decisions in life should be based on one's life's experience and education and facts and tangible truths. It's somewhat confliction to say in one breath that 2+2=4 and in the other breath say 1+1+1=1.

Things like virgin birth, water into wine, coming back to life after being dead for days, rivers to blood, Noah's Ark, 72 virgins, and other Santa Claus type fables are in direct conflict with logic and reason. I can't see how someone who ACTUALLY believes such tales can reason on the same level as one who does not. It's almost a handicap in my humble opinion.

Don't get me wrong. The liberal side of me says "Live and let live" and "Believe what you wish to believe." I have no beef with the religious. I am just not one to let all that mumbo-jumbo affect my line of thinking.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Donkey1499]

When they do conflict I usually do paper, rock, scissors to figure out which one is the right one....:rofl j/k.

I have to disagree with the notion that religion is always in conflict with Logic and rationale. That is just a blatantly false statement. Religion says Murder is wrong so does Logic and Rationale in constitutional terms. So where is the conflict? I approach the abortion problem with the same line of reasoning I gave. Religion says Life is sacred and should be protected. Logic and rationale then say there are circumstances that Religion would allow for it to be done. Thus the idea of being pro-life but in the instances of rape,incest and the mother's health Abortion is allowed for Moral and ethical reasons. Thinking for oneself and allowing Religion to be only one part of the criteria for the line of reasoning is not hard at all. it just takes an open mind and an open heart.

What a genuine, heart-felt post. 5 Kudos... :mrgreen:

 

[Donkey1499]

I can dig it. Whatever gets you through the night.

Myself, I can be pro-life without religion dictating to me it's wrong. I know murder and theft is wrong too and I didn't have to learn that in church either. Also, I can see how, back in the day, that religion telling people not to eat pork was logical advice given the fact that refrigeration and microbiological parasites were common amongst pork (albeit the reason given was poppycock, the fact remains it was unhealthy.)

But the point I was trying to make is that decisions in life should be based on one's life's experience and education and facts and tangible truths. It's somewhat confliction to say in one breath that 2+2=4 and in the other breath say 1+1+1=1.

Things like virgin birth, water into wine, coming back to life after being dead for days, rivers to blood, Noah's Ark, 72 virgins, and other Santa Claus type fables are in direct conflict with logic and reason. I can't see how someone who ACTUALLY believes such tales can reason on the same level as one who does not. It's almost a handicap in my humble opinion.

Don't get me wrong. The liberal side of me says "Live and let live" and "Believe what you wish to believe." I have no beef with the religious. I am just not one to let all that mumbo-jumbo affect my line of thinking.

Whatever floats your boat.

I wonder if Cherokee is in high enough rank to demote your ***! You're not being fair at all. Your argument is one sided, like the NY Times. Doesn't that make you feel bad? Cuz you insult me by saying that I'm not logical. Spock would be ashamed of you right now...

 

[ModerateDem]

I can dig it. Whatever gets you through the night.

Myself, I can be pro-life without religion dictating to me it's wrong. I know murder and theft is wrong too and I didn't have to learn that in church either. Also, I can see how, back in the day, that religion telling people not to eat pork was logical advice given the fact that refrigeration and microbiological parasites were common amongst pork (albeit the reason given was poppycock, the fact remains it was unhealthy.)

I dont eat pork for religious reasons. I am Jewish the not eating Pork is given. I agree that their reasoning was a bunch of nonsense. They had no right to tell everyone not to eat Pork. It is a personal choice with a religious base not a force the issue upon others kind of thing unless your doctor tells you otherwise.

But the point I was trying to make is that decisions in life should be based on one's life's experience and education and facts and tangible truths. It's somewhat confliction to say in one breath that 2+2=4 and in the other breath say 1+1+1=1.

Bieng Jewish I would have to say the example of the trinitarian argument is Irelevent. to me 1+1+1=3 and 2+2=4 as well as 100*100=10000. both Logically and religiously

Things like virgin birth, water into wine, coming back to life after being dead for days, rivers to blood, Noah's Ark, 72 virgins, and other Santa Claus type fables are in direct conflict with logic and reason. I can't see how someone who ACTUALLY believes such tales can reason on the same level as one who does not. It's almost a handicap in my humble opinion.

Who says I believe in most of what you said above. Noah's Ark I can imagine based on the factual evidence that the middle east was at one point flooded over and an wooden ship that fits the size of the Ark was actually found in the mountains of Turkey. Not only that but the Torah tells me that it happened. Do not assume that everyone adheres to christainity. I do not.

Don't get me wrong. The liberal side of me says "Live and let live" and "Believe what you wish to believe." I have no beef with the religious. I am just not one to let all that mumbo-jumbo affect my line of thinking.

Whatever floats your boat.

On this, the whole argument, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Captain America]

I wonder if Cherokee is in high enough rank to demote your ***! You're not being fair at all. Your argument is one sided, like the NY Times. Doesn't that make you feel bad? Cuz you insult me by saying that I'm not logical. Spock would be ashamed of you right now...

I'm supposed to feel bad? You call me a Stalinist and now somehow I'm insulting you? Yeah, I feel real bad about that Donk. :roll:

:rofl

Look man, it doesn't matter a hill of beans to me what you believe bro. You can believe in the tooth-fairy as far as I'm concerned. It is of no consequence to me.

I'm just keeping it real here. I'm proned to reality that way. Call me crazy. :mrgreen:

 

[Donkey1499]

I dont eat pork for religious reasons. I am Jewish the not eating Pork is given. I agree that their reasoning was a bunch of nonsense. They had no right to tell everyone not to eat Pork. It is a personal choice with a religious base not a force the issue upon others kind of thing unless your doctor tells you otherwise.

Actually, I swear it was God who told people not to eat pork. You know, He told Moses or Aaron or one of them and then they passed it on. Like the 10 Commandments.

 

[Donkey1499]

I'm supposed to feel bad? You call me a Stalinist and now somehow I'm insulting you? Yeah, I feel real bad about that Donk. :roll:

:rofl

Look man, it doesn't matter a hill of beans to me what you believe bro. You can believe in the tooth-fairy as far as I'm concerned. It is of no consequence to me.

I'm just keeping it real here. I'm proned to reality that way. Call me crazy. :mrgreen:

You're still not a nice person. And yes you should feel bad. Cuz I know that you once believed in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus; but some big bully at school told that they weren't real (of which they're not real) before you were ready to be told and you felt like your parents lied to you. So your issue with religion has nothing to do with logic. It has more to do with your anger towards your parents. And I know all of this because I passed Psychology I in high school with a B-. So Pfffffffft to you!

 

[Captain America]

I dont eat pork for religious reasons. I am Jewish the not eating Pork is given. I agree that their reasoning was a bunch of nonsense. They had no right to tell everyone not to eat Pork. It is a personal choice with a religious base not a force the issue upon others kind of thing unless your doctor tells you otherwise.



Bieng Jewish I would have to say the example of the trinitarian argument is Irelevent. to me 1+1+1=3 and 2+2=4 as well as 100*100=10000. both Logically and religiously



Who says I believe in most of what you said above. Noah's Ark I can imagine based on the factual evidence that the middle east was at one point flooded over and an wooden ship that fits the size of the Ark was actually found in the mountains of Turkey. Not only that but the Torah tells me that it happened. Do not assume that everyone adheres to christainity. I do not.



On this, the whole argument, we will have to agree to disagree.

Right on. I do not know that much about your religion having been raised in the Bible Belt. I know what the "Old Testament" says and I also have a hard time wrapping my head around that as well.

I do recognize what some may call "spirituality" within myself however. I just do not assume to put a name or face to any particular diety or profess that any particular belief outweighs another especially when all I have studied show appearant flaws and contridictions to logic and reason.

I have no problem on agreeing to disagree. Unlike many of the religous, I have no compulsion to declare that my beliefs are the ultimate truth and that any others beliefs besides mine are in error.

I just know what works for me.

Shalom.

 

[ModerateDem]

Actually, I swear it was God who told people not to eat pork. You know, He told Moses or Aaron or one of them and then they passed it on. Like the 10 Commandments.

The difference is that G-d actually dictated that the Jews Not eat Pork. There is a difference between G-d dictating in his G-d inspired book that a certain people should not do something, and a religiously fanatical preacher, that has nothing better to do with his time, telling a bunch of people that they are prohibited from eating Pork because he says so for one reason or another. The difference is huge.

 

[Captain America]

You're still not a nice person. And yes you should feel bad. Cuz I know that you once believed in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus; but some big bully at school told that they weren't real (of which they're not real) before you were ready to be told and you felt like your parents lied to you. So your issue with religion has nothing to do with logic. It has more to do with your anger towards your parents. And I know all of this because I passed Psychology I in high school with a B-. So Pfffffffft to you!

Oh, I get it now. I'm that bully telling you there is no Santa Claus. Can you ever forgive me? :rofl

 

[Donkey1499]

Right on. I do not know that much about your religion having been raised in the Bible Belt. I know what the "Old Testament" says and I also have a hard time wrapping my head around that as well.

I do recognize what some may call "spirituality" within myself however. I just do not assume to put a name or face to any particular diety or profess that any particular belief outweighs another especially when all I have studied show appearant flaws and contridictions to logic and reason.

I have no problem on agreeing to disagree. Unlike many of the religous, I have no compulsion to declare that my beliefs are the ultimate truth and that any others beliefs besides mine are in error.

I just know what works for me.

Shalom.

But I remeber a post you writ a while back where said that the world would be better off if there were no religions. So that's like enforcing athiest views on everyone, is it not? Please explain...

 

[Donkey1499]

The difference is that G-d actually dictated that the Jews Not eat Pork. There is a difference between G-d dictating in his G-d inspired book that a certain people should not do something, and a religiously fanatical preacher, that has nothing better to do with his time, telling a bunch of people that they are prohibited from eating Pork because he says so for one reason or another. The difference is huge.

So did GOD tell them, or "some fanatical preacher"?

 

[Donkey1499]

Oh, I get it now. I'm that bully telling you there is no Santa Claus. Can you ever forgive me? :rofl

:spin:
Nice try pal... But no cigar for you. YOU lost, now admit defeat, dammit! :mrgreen:

 

[Captain America]

But I remeber a post you writ a while back where said that the world would be better off if there were no religions. So that's like enforcing athiest views on everyone, is it not? Please explain...

The world would also be better off without guns and yet I own many of them.

I feel that religion, when shoved down the throats of the unwilling is a bad thing. I think religious beliefs are best kept internally. You will never see me in real life debating anyone over the existance of Santa Claus or The Messiah, 72 Virgins, a boat large enough to house every creature known to man for weeks on end or a plethra of other topics that, to me, are purely outlandish, for lack of a better word. There is no point. Especially when I instinctively feel that they are arguing just for the sake of argument. I also feel that if they were put on a polygraph machine, we would find out that they too, don't really believe in all they say they believe as it flies in the face of logic. Neither will I fall into that trap here.

Believe in what you wanna belive bro. Don't take it as me not liking you for it. My wife is a devout Catholic and I love her to pieces.

I'm just stuck here in the real world. Don't hate me for it.

 

[ModerateDem]

So did GOD tell them, or "some fanatical preacher"?

Oy Vey! :slapme:

G-d told the Jews not to eat pork. Everyone one else can regardless of some fanatical preacher's opinion unless your doctor says otherwise.

 

[Captain America]

:spin:
Nice try pal... But no cigar for you. YOU lost, now admit defeat, dammit! :mrgreen:

OK....you win. :roll: There really is a Santa Claus.

 

[Donkey1499]

The world would also be better off without guns and yet I own many of them.

I feel that religion, when shoved down the throats of the unwilling is a bad thing. I think religious beliefs are best kept internally. You will never see me in real life debating anyone over the existance of Santa Claus or The Messiah, 72 Virgins, a boat large enough to house every creature known to man for weeks on end or a plethra of other topics that, to me, are purely outlandish, for lack of a better word. There is no point. Especially when I instinctively feel that they are arguing just for the sake of argument. I also feel that if they were put on a polygraph machine, we would find out that they too, don't really believe in all they say they believe as it flies in the face of logic. Neither will I fall into that trap here.

Believe in what you wanna belive bro. Don't take it as me not liking you for it. My wife is a devout Catholic and I love her to pieces.

I'm just stuck here in the real world. Don't hate me for it.

"Real world"? How do YOU define this "real world"? Or is this just more psycho-babble BS from the Chimps of Chesterhausen?

 

[Donkey1499]

Oy Vey! :slapme:

G-d told the Jews not to eat pork. Everyone one else can regardless of some fanatical preacher's opinion unless your doctor says otherwise.

I eat pork cuz Jesus said I could... Sunday football wouldn't be the same without it.

 

[Donkey1499]

OK....you win. :roll: There really is a Santa Claus.

Heh. Rolling your eyes in the midst of defeat, just like a typical STALINIST!

 

[doughgirl]

“I've seen a lot of debating about the correct interpretation of the constitution as is but very little debating about what the constitution should say regarding the seperation of church and state.”


That is because nowhere in the Constitution is separation of Church and State mentioned Star. Jefferson mentioned this only in a letter to the Danbury Baptists.


Kandahar said, “There should be a strict separation of church and state in that the government should take no stance in support or opposition toward any religion, or toward the idea of religion itself. That means that "In God We Trust" has to go, as does "One nation under God."

So you want all the references to our past history if its religious to be taken down and gotten rid of?

Boy….then burn both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence….. Tear down all the presidential monuments …….redecorate the House and Senate chambers, the Rotunda of the capital, burn the Great Seal……..destroy the Liberty Bell…redecorate past history because you are so paranoid that something might rub off on you from some piece of Christianity.

How can we rewrite history? We cant.

The separation phrase is not in the Constitution, only Jeffersons letter. From what I have read this letter wasnt even an issue until around 1853 when it was found and published along with more of his writings. His letter was changed, seven lines were eliminated. (I read this in the book, "Me My Country, My God", by DR. C. Thomas Anderson) Lincoln suggested the changes because Jefferson was offending to many voters. His true feelings in the seven lines omitted however were taken out. His concerns weren’t just about eliminating religion altogether but about religious persecution. The exact same reason why the Pilgrims came over to begin with. Jefferson felt that no one should be persecuted because of what they believed. But I don’t think for one minute that he intended that their religious rights ever be infringed on by an act of a government or an official. Jeffersons actions back up what I state too. Because not long after he sent that letter to the Baptists…….he started attending church meetings in the House of Representatives to listen to John Leland preach.

Separation of Church and State? Guess Jefferson didn’t think there was a problem with the connection between Church and the House of Representatvies did he? Ha ha


His actions show that he never believed that the influences of biblical principles should end influencing the men who were involved with the government. Jefferson just did not want a national forced religion.


I’ll end by saying this. The wall of separation is not bad when its understood in its original context. It was intended to prevent government from imposing on the rights of citizens to believe and worship as they wish. It doesn't prevent a government official from proclaiming his faith nor does it prevent him from trying to convince others of his/her beliefs through persuasion or argument. Just because someone is in public office does not mean that he/she must put his own faith aside.

Our country is secular today. But it was not secular back then. You cant deny our historical past and it is wrong to try to rewrite history.