Should the minimum wage be lower for workers who get tipped?

[OrphanSlug]

I had to go find a story on this to get more context, ended up with ABCNews...

Should the minimum wage be lower for workers who get tipped? Two states are set to decide

Voters in Arizona and Massachusetts are set to decide whether employers should be able to continue to pay tipped workers such as servers and bartenders a lower minimum wage than non-tipped workers

abcnews.go.com

The issue of two minimum wage standards for tipped vs. non-tipped (or tipped out) employees has been a mess for years now. If I understand the issue correctly this is entirely because of Federal Labor Laws which allow for businesses to decide more can be considered a tipped employee, by various means as in direct tipped or tip shared ("tipped out",) and move even more of their workforce to consumer partially paid for.

Now Arizona Republicans are trying to do something differently than Massachusetts. The former is looking for more means to move more employees to tipped status and have that rate be less than what is on the books now in these categories. Whereas Massachusetts is looking to kill the two-tiered or "subminimum wage" (sometimes three-tiered when you move people around based on partial tips) system entirely for one minimum wage for everyone. There are other states that have a single minimum wage and the Massachusetts plan stair steps it from two to one out to 2029.

Restaurant Associations support the Arizona move, no article mentions similar support in Massachusetts (should surprise no one.)

While we are arguing about this no where is either state really considering living wage, the concept of what it takes to exist and participate healthy enough in an economy. But then again every time we push that the response is needing less people via some automation or changes to product delivery. And ultimately price costs for the consumer. Becomes a circular debate.

 

[Beruit 1978]

You asserted HS girls should be making $200/shift ($25/hour?) at a rural (dive?) bar while you assert that rural areas should have a MW of $15/hour ($120/shift, assuming an 8 hour shift).

BTW, many states have rural areas.

Yes, I asserted that those high school girls are at risk, and constantly harassed, and that such a demanding job is worth $200/shift or more. Such blatant exploitation should be compensated.

 

[mike2810]

I say No. Tips should have no factor in what a person gets paid.

I also personally believe that Tips should not be reportable income. The person tipping has already paid taxes on the money being given.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yes, I asserted that those high school girls are at risk, and constantly harassed, and that such a demanding job is worth $200/shift or more. Such blatant exploitation should be compensated.

Blatant exploitation assumes folks can’t simply refuse to work there. You noted that their turnover rate was high, indicating that many chose to quit after finding out what that workplace was like.

 

[Beruit 1978]

Well let's look at what you cited in post #1 and see what eliminating tipping would do?
Here is the quote from your cited article,

So if the AZ minimum wage is $14.35 per hour, but the tipped workers only make $11.35 per hour, a person at the
Full minimum wage working 20 hours a week would gross $287. with the tipped person would make $227 plus tips.
Wait staff at a place like Olive Garden, can expect to make $15 per hour in tips, increasing their 20 hour week to a gross of
$527. By eliminating tipping and giving them the higher pay, you would be taking $240 per week out of their pockets!

No, by stopping tipping, the restaurants will have to make up the difference. They won't get employees, unless they pay. In the short term, some people will get screwed, but in the long term, things will settle into an accepted wage.

I'll also point out that for every Olive Garden, there are a dozen restaurants where the staff gets both lower wages, and less tipping.

One more tidbit. I have a brother in law who is rather abusive toward wait staff. Wait staff often sucks up to him, and suffers his abuse, in the hopes of getting a tip. I have often given rather extravagant tips to make up for him being an ass. In a world where the wait staff isn't expected to put up with his shit, everyone maintains their dignity better. The waitress doesn't HAVE TO put up with anyone's stupid crap, because she is getting an honest wage, no matter what you, the customer has to say.

Maybe you have never abused the wait staff, but you've damned sure witnessed it.

 

[longview]

No, by stopping tipping, the restaurants will have to make up the difference. They won't get employees, unless they pay. In the short term, some people will get screwed, but in the long term, things will settle into an accepted wage.

I'll also point out that for every Olive Garden, there are a dozen restaurants where the staff gets both lower wages, and less tipping.

One more tidbit. I have a brother in law who is rather abusive toward wait staff. Wait staff often sucks up to him, and suffers his abuse, in the hopes of getting a tip. I have often given rather extravagant tips to make up for him being an ass. In a world where the wait staff isn't expected to put up with his shit, everyone maintains their dignity better. The waitress doesn't HAVE TO put up with anyone's stupid crap, because she is getting an honest wage, no matter what you, the customer has to say.

Maybe you have never abused the wait staff, but you've damned sure witnessed it.

Sorry I think you are wrong! It is only my opinion. Do you have any data to support that wait staff in non tip countries make more or less
money per year than wait staff in the US?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

My answer is 'Not only NO! but HELL NO!!

The practice of tipping came into being because wait staff, food service, and farm labor were being exploited. We need to move toward a society where tipping is not acceptable. If there is going to be a minimum wage, then it applies to everyone. If it doesn't apply to everyone, then just eliminate minimum wage, and stop pretending to give a damn for laborers. The latter idea will bite politicians in the ass come election time!

We cannot remove the minimum wage. It was created to stop business owners from exploiting people.

I agree lower minimum wage for tipped workers is nonsense. In Colorado, it became a thing in 2002, because our governor at that time was a GOP crook and his tenure ruined a number of lives.

No. Regular minimum wage needs to be paid. Tips are a bonus for good service and were never meant to be part of the pay package.

 

[ttwtt78640]

We cannot remove the minimum wage. It was created to stop business owners from exploiting people.

I agree lower minimum wage for tipped workers is nonsense. In Colorado, it became a thing in 2002, because our governor at that time was a GOP crook and his tenure ruined a number of lives.

No. Regular minimum wage needs to be paid. Tips are a bonus for good service and were never meant to be part of the pay package.

The (current) federal income tax on tips indicates otherwise. One downside to no longer taxing tips as income is that less would be ‘contributed’ to Social Security (SS) - eventually, that may result in lower SS retirement benefits.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

The (current) federal income tax on tips indicates otherwise. One downside to no longer taxing tips as income is that less would be ‘contributed’ to Social Security (SS) - eventually, that may result in lower SS retirement benefits.

That is irrelevant.

Tips were a bonus for good service. They were NEVER meant to be part of the pay package.

Many republicans think they should be part of the pay; I disagree. Many people who earn TIPS are food service workers and those people, most of whom are not well off, need at least minimum wage. Taking this away means these people are not getting a paycheck.

I have done this job, and I often got checks for less than $5.00 because taxes were taken out and there was nothing left.

T - TO
I - INSURE
P - PROMPT
S - SERVICE


The republicans need to leave it alone.

 

[soylentgreen]

One of the things I found most annoying in america was that the price of something if written down did not reflect its true cost. You then had to do a mental calculation to add on the tax if any and then the tip.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

One of the things I found most annoying in america was that the price of something if written down did not reflect its true cost. You then had to do a mental calculation to add on the tax if any and then the tip.

In terms of food, particularly, at a restaurant, the prices never include tax. They also do not include tips because those are generally not mandated.

At grocery stores, or other retail venues, the price of the item(s) is the cost of the item without tax. The tax is calculated based on the amount of the purchase.

I suppose it's something that may seem odd to visitors from overseas.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That is irrelevant.

Tips were a bonus for good service. They were NEVER meant to be part of the pay package.

Many republicans think they should be part of the pay; I disagree. Many people who earn TIPS are food service workers and those people, most of whom are not well off, need at least minimum wage. Taking this away means these people are not getting a paycheck.

I have done this job, and I often got checks for less than $5.00 because taxes were taken out and there was nothing left.

T - TO
I - INSURE
P - PROMPT
S - SERVICE


The republicans need to leave it alone.

You make little sense. Leaving it alone means tips are federally taxable and tipped workers are subject to a lower federal MW.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

You make little sense. Leaving it alone means tips are federally taxable and tipped workers are subject to a lower federal MW.

I am sorry I confused you.

When I said "leave it alone" I meant that the tipped workers need to be paid AT LEAST minimum wage and there should no taxation of tips.

 

[Luce]

No.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I am sorry I confused you.

When I said "leave it alone" I meant that the tipped workers need to be paid AT LEAST minimum wage and there should no taxation of tips.

I’m not confused since “leave it alone” isn’t calling for change.

 

[soylentgreen]

In terms of food, particularly, at a restaurant, the prices never include tax. They also do not include tips because those are generally not mandated.

At grocery stores, or other retail venues, the price of the item(s) is the cost of the item without tax. The tax is calculated based on the amount of the purchase.

I suppose it's something that may seem odd to visitors from overseas.

Truly odd and really annoying. I can put up with countries where you have to bargain for the price becaue that can be fun trying to bargain down. And I come from a country where the price listed is the price, no hidden add on.
But where the price listed is not the price you have to pay as in your country just seems dishonest.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Truly odd and really annoying. I can put up with countries where you have to bargain for the price becaue that can be fun trying to bargain down. And I come from a country where the price listed is the price, no hidden add on.
But where the price listed is not the price you have to pay as in your country just seems dishonest.

It's the price of the product without tax. Typically, the tax on the purchase is determined as a percentage of the total cost of the order.

It's not meant to be dishonest. The government wants their cut.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

I’m not confused since “leave it alone” isn’t calling for change.

If the republicans had never changed anything, it would be.

Sadly, republicans are owned by big business.

 

[soylentgreen]

It's the price of the product without tax. Typically, the tax on the purchase is determined as a percentage of the total cost of the order.

It's not meant to be dishonest. The government wants their cut.

I know it is not meant to be dishonest but it does feel like it is dishonest. I think if you are going to write the price on a board or tag then that should be the price. Not I have to calculate the add ons.

 

[Real blank]

If this no tax on tips happens it will be amazing how many things suddenly get classified as a tip.

 

[The Hairy Fiddler]

Tipped workers by law here work at wages below minimum.

 

[CimpleMan]

Which California ballot props are likely to pass?

A new poll suggests that four California propositions are likely to pass, while two are trailing and the other five are up in the air.

calmatters.org

Looks like Prop to increase Minimum Wage is going to fail. Article has polling for all California Propositions. Some surprises, not surprised Prop increasing penalties for some crimes with broad support.

 

[george48]

My answer is 'Not only NO! but HELL NO!!

The practice of tipping came into being because wait staff, food service, and farm labor were being exploited. We need to move toward a society where tipping is not acceptable. If there is going to be a minimum wage, then it applies to everyone. If it doesn't apply to everyone, then just eliminate minimum wage, and stop pretending to give a damn for laborers. The latter idea will bite politicians in the ass come election time!

Oh I see why trump does the no taxes on tips...another way to bamboozle and stiff workers

 

[Helix]

No. I support minimum wage being the same for tipped and non-tipped workers.

 

[Jason Warfield]

No.

The point is to provide a stable, bare minimum to get by on. Tipping is at the mercy of those doing the tipping.

Now, some might say that if there is a minimum wage, then those workers won't hustle for tips...but the key word here is minimum, so tips are still desired and will be hustled for.

And I suspect anyone who disagrees with that probably has never worked as a waiter, waitress, bartender, etc. Could be wrong, but I doubt they ever said no to a tip if they did.