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Should the Canadian truckers been bargained with?

Should the Canadian truckers been bargained with?

  • Yes they should be bargained with to have laws/regulations changed

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • No they should not be bargained with to have laws/regulations changed

    Votes: 9 75.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

tacomancer

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I see a lot of assumptions that the Canadian truckers should or should not have been bargained with over their concern about COVID policies. I have not seen a direct discussion though.

It looks like it would be an interesting debate.
 

tacomancer

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My personal view is that they should not be bargained with and did not have a legitimate concern. On top of that, direct bargaining should never be used to get laws change and the proper use of protest is to gain sympathy from the population to get laws/regulations changed by popular consensus or sympathy. This is the way it worked with civil rights.

To shut down and threaten vital infrastructure to get your way, and then getting, invites any other group to do the same in the future. That's quite dangerous to society.
 
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XDU

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I see a lot of assumptions that the Canadian truckers should or should not have been bargained with over their concern about COVID policies. I have not seen a direct discussion though.

It looks like it would be an interesting debate.
There's a difference between bargaining and conversing. Trudeau needed to show the convoy was non-negotiable since they had unconditional demands. They were results-oriented pragmatists who thought they could plow their way forward...

...but refusing to converse with them meant that never got shown, so he made them look like victims of the system.
 

XDU

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My personal view is that they should not be bargained with and did not have a legitimate concern. On top of that, direct bargaining should never be used to get laws change and the proper use of protest is to gain sympathy from the population to get laws/regulations changed by popular consensus or sympathy. This is the way it worked with civil rights.

To shut down and threaten vital infrastructure to get your way, and then getting, invites any other group to do the same in the future. That's quite dangerous to society.
The point of civil disobedience is to show how the system is broken from how it refuses to engage peacefully. When civil rights advocates get oppressed, authorities become tyrants.
 

tacomancer

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The point of civil disobedience is to show how the system is broken from how it refuses to engage peacefully. When civil rights advocates get oppressed, authorities become tyrants.
Which goes to my first point ... gain sympathy for a cause. Time will tell if that happens though.

So far public sentiment is against them.

 

XDU

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Which goes to my first point ... gain sympathy for a cause. Time will tell if that happens though.

So far that doesn't seem to be happening.

The problem is we don't know how much time it will take for public opinion to turn around. It's kind of like how statutes of limitations in law can make things a mess in emergencies when the impact itself can inhibit people from organizing representation on a timely basis.

Time spent waiting for people to change their minds is time wasted during which people endure tyranny.
 

tacomancer

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The problem is we don't know how much time it will take for public opinion to turn around. It's kind of like how statutes of limitations in law can make things a mess in emergencies when the impact itself can inhibit people from organizing representation on a timely basis.

Time spent waiting for people to change their minds is time wasted during which people endure tyranny.
Black people waited centuries, surely truckers can wait at least a few weeks.

Also, I think the word tyranny in this case is hyperbole.
 

XDU

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Black people waited centuries, surely truckers can wait at least a few weeks.

Also, I think the word tyranny in this case is hyperbole.
That's misery loves company thinking as if just because some people endured oppression means other people have to endure it too.

The only people who win then are oppressors. It's a divide and conquer tactic used by victimizers against victims.
 

tacomancer

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That's misery loves company thinking as if just because some people endured oppression means other people have to endure it too.

The only people who win then are oppressors. It's a divide and conquer tactics used by victimizers against victims.
The use of the word oppression in this topic is also hyperbole in my opinion.

Its like being mad and feeling oppressed that you have to stop at a red light. Its a strong overreaction.
 

XDU

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The word oppression is also hyperbole in my opinion.
Are you saying oppression only counts if it's so and so bad enough?

That seems like victimhood olympics which again enables oppressors to get away with lesser evils.
 

tacomancer

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Are you saying oppression only counts if it's so and so bad enough?

That seems like victimhood olympics which again enables oppressors to get away with lesser evils.
I am saying oppression actually counts if its oppression. That means there needs to be a targeted effort to disenfranchise a specific demographic and not just a general safety rule in a pandemic. This is akin to drunk people protesting and closing down borders because they want more freedom to drunk drive.
 

Mycroft

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There's a difference between bargaining and conversing. Trudeau needed to show the convoy was non-negotiable since they had unconditional demands. They were results-oriented pragmatists who thought they could plow their way forward...

...but refusing to converse with them meant that never got shown, so he made them look like victims of the system.
This is my thinking as well. Since they were not rioting and since they are a massive group, he should have opened a dialogue with them, at the least.

But then, he's not even letting Parliament have a dialogue about his Emergencies War Powers action. He seems to be doing everything he can to make the #TrudeauTyranny thing justified.
 

XDU

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I am saying oppression actually counts if its oppression. That means there needs to be a targeted effort to disenfranchise a specific demographic and not just a general safety rule in a pandemic. This is akin to drunk people protesting and closing down borders because they want more freedom to drunk drive.
The demographic at hand is preborns who were sacrificed since the vaccine was researched from aborted fetal cell lines. That's why Canada is so opposed to the convoy - it's a pro-choice country. What it's done now is gone from simply being pro-choice to saying people have to go along with abortions for the pragmatic greater good of society.
 

tacomancer

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The demographic at hand is preborns who were sacrificed since the vaccine was researched from aborted fetal cell lines. That's why Canada is so opposed to the convoy - it's a pro-choice country. What it's done now is gone from simply being pro-choice to saying people have to go along with abortions for the pragmatic greater good of society.
You mean the stem cell line that was in use for decades and was not from any sort of recent cell lines? That that even the Catholic Pope ruled was ok? The same one people protest but are willing to take a tylonel and other medicines derived and tested using the same cell culture? That one?

You should research the topic more since you got this one 100% wrong. Also the people protesting this are basically hypocrites unless they eschew a LOT of different types of medicines.

Those people are, in most cases, just lying because they find the first amendment useful to their real cause, which is fear of the vaccines.
 
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XDU

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You mean the stem cell line that was in use for decades and was not from any sort of recent cell lines? That that even the Catholic Pope ruled was ok? The same one people protest but are willing to take a tylonel and other medicines derived and tested using the same cell culture? That one?

You should research the topic more since you got this one 100% wrong. Also the people protesting this are basically hypocrites unless they eschew a LOT of different types of medicines.
An abortion which happened long ago is still an abortion, everyone who's pro-life isn't Catholic, and the Pope is a follower of Liberation Theology which is Stockholm Syndrome from how the Roosevelt Corollary was taken as an excuse to intervene in Latin America, a policy which stemmed from the Progressive Era's Social Gospel which had no Catholic roots at all.

The point ultimately is justice is not subject to convenience, but it's been treated that way here.
 

XDU

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You mean the stem cell line that was in use for decades and was not from any sort of recent cell lines? That that even the Catholic Pope ruled was ok? The same one people protest but are willing to take a tylonel and other medicines derived and tested using the same cell culture? That one?

You should research the topic more since you got this one 100% wrong. Also the people protesting this are basically hypocrites unless they eschew a LOT of different types of medicines.

Those people are, in most cases, just lying because they find the first amendment useful to their real cause, which is fear of the vaccines.
Also, Tylenol itself wasn't researched from that cell line. The cell line was excessively used to confirm its safety.
 

tacomancer

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An abortion which happened long ago is still an abortion, everyone who's pro-life isn't Catholic, and the Pope is a follower of Liberation Theology which is Stockholm Syndrome from how the Roosevelt Corollary was taken as an excuse to intervene in Latin America, a policy which stemmed from the Progressive Era's Social Gospel which had no Catholic roots at all.

The point ultimately is justice is not subject to convenience, but it's been treated that way here.
That's fine, then they can stop taking pain killers when they get a headache as well (and let themselves die if they need a life saving drug that is also developing using that cell line), if they don't want to be hypocrites.

Are they willing to do that? If not, then their concerns are not valid.
 

tacomancer

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Also, Tylenol itself wasn't researched from that cell line. The cell line was excessively used to confirm its safety.
It doesn't change the fact that the cell line was used. They are using religion quite conveniently and hypocritically.
 

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I've known family members who've lived in Canada for a good part of their lives, and one in-law who was Canadian. I was there only once for a few days. To the best of my knowledge, Canada has a govt and a formal system for listening to people that want to be "bargained with to have laws/regulations changed." I don't believe the truckers way of filing a request to talk about what they want is acceptable according to what little I know of Canadian law. The truckers will have to find the right window and go to the end of the line like any civilized person, which would not incl the Americans involved in this caper.
 

XDU

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It doesn't change the fact that the cell line was used. They are using religion quite conveniently and hypocritically.
Using something excessively after the fact of another thing already achieved from good means does not make those good means bad.
 

XDU

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I've known family members who've lived in Canada for a good part of their lives, and one in-law who was Canadian. I was there only once for a few days. To the best of my knowledge, Canada has a govt and a formal system for listening to people that want to be "bargained with to have laws/regulations changed." I don't believe the truckers way of filing a request to talk about what they want is acceptable according to what little I know of Canadian law. The truckers will have to find the right window and go to the end of the line like any civilized person, which would not incl the Americans involved in this caper.
That's why we're talking about emergency circumstances here. Due process gets suspended during emergencies since time is of the essence.
 

tacomancer

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Using something excessively after the fact of another thing already achieved from good means does not make those good means bad.
This is nothing but justification for your hypocrisy.
 

XDU

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This is nothing but justification for your hypocrisy.
I'm saying there is no hypocrisy. Consistency throughout a period of time is not made inconsistent from some event which was not necessary after that period of time to take place.
 

Allan

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Their first demands included calling on the Senate and Governor General to overrule the government. They weren't looking for dialogue with Trudeau, they wanted to undermine the democratically elected branch of our government.

They were extremists, and got exactly the attention they deserved.
 

tacomancer

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I'm saying there is no hypocrisy. Consistency throughout a period of time is not made inconsistent from some event which was not necessary after that period of time to take place.
I am sure you will continue to convince yourself there is no hypocrisy, you might even believe it too.
 
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