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Should sexual consent age laws be changed to a variable?

I disagee. Pre-teens and teens do not always appreciate the consequences of what they are doing, and their natural impulsivity prevents them, at times, from "knowing what they are doing".

They aren't dogs humping peoples legs, they are aware of what they are doing as much as any 18, 20, or any year old could.

But by saying ALL 13 year olds are too immature to make this choice is prejudice. There are a significant amount of, let's say, 20 year olds who are particularly irresponsible when it comes to sex. But do you support their liberty to do so anyway?
 
They aren't dogs humping peoples legs, they are aware of what they are doing as much as any 18, 20, or any year old could.

But by saying ALL 13 year olds are too immature to make this choice is prejudice. There are a significant amount of, let's say, 20 year olds who are particularly irresponsible when it comes to sex. But do you support their liberty to do so anyway?

One cannot deal in absolutes but only in the relative here as in so much of society and politics. Most 13 year olds are not mature enough and most 20 year old are.

And prejudices(in the sense of prejudgements) and habit are not always negatives.
 
They aren't dogs humping peoples legs, they are aware of what they are doing as much as any 18, 20, or any year old could.

But by saying ALL 13 year olds are too immature to make this choice is prejudice. There are a significant amount of, let's say, 20 year olds who are particularly irresponsible when it comes to sex. But do you support their liberty to do so anyway?

I don't disagree with you around the problem with the arbitrariness of the age. But here's the problem. Research shows that the brain of a teenager is not developed in the same way as that of an adult. The mechanisms that control mood and impulsivity are just not there. All that we know about teens is evidenced by physical/biological research, so the restrictions that are placed are valid. Now, setting an age is difficult, but, as I have worked with teens for 18+ years, I have never seen one under the age of 14 that was capable, emotionally or impulsively, of making this kind of decision in the same way an adult would. Conversely, the vast majority of 18+ years-olds that I have worked with, could. Are there some 13 year olds that could? Probably, but most could not. So, since it is impossible to determine an individuals ability in this area, an arbitrary age needs to be determined. All evidence shows that 13 is too young.
 
One cannot deal in absolutes but only in the relative here as in so much of society and politics. Most 13 year olds are not mature enough and most 20 year old are.

And prejudices(in the sense of prejudgements) and habit are not always negatives.

This is true, and in the absence of being able to accomplish this in a relative way...certainly the more appropriate...a number needs to be determined that deals with the majority.
 
One cannot deal in absolutes but only in the relative here as in so much of society and politics. Most 13 year olds are not mature enough and most 20 year old are.

We judge people independently all the time, especially when it matters most like in the court of law. Also in giving people licenses for driving, gun ownership, etc.

And prejudices(in the sense of prejudgements) and habit are not always negatives.

Name an example of when it's better to prejudge rather than judge on character in real time.
 
We judge people independently all the time, especially when it matters most like in the court of law. Also in giving people licenses for driving, gun ownership, etc.
I very much doubt there could be a reasonable test for this even if it were wanted. In Australia and Britain the tests on driving are quite standardised and can only be taken after at 16 and 17 and still young drivers have a much higher risk of injury or death.


Name an example of when it's better to prejudge rather than judge on character in real time.

Well you just said prejudice not just that pertaining to character but I would suggest it is better for a soldier when he sees the enemy approaching, he does not ask whether this man really wants to kill him and if wonder if they can't talk and agree not to shoot each other for instance or a policeman having a gun waved in their face.
 
We judge people independently all the time, especially when it matters most like in the court of law. Also in giving people licenses for driving, gun ownership, etc.

In your first example, you are discussing independent situations. This is inconsistent with the current situation, whereas we are discussing setting limits. In the other examples, individuals are judged whether they can drive or own a gun, partially based on their age. Your argument deteriorates at this point.

Name an example of when it's better to prejudge rather than judge on character in real time.

Try this. Tell us how the age of consent for sex will be determined in a workable, practical way.
 
That would be a completely unworkable system. You have to remember that the age of consent has a lot more ramifications than the ability to be in a relationship. Should a 14 year old be able to appear in pornography? Take part in a gangbang? Work in a brothel? There's a lot more to sex than just sex, and that's an area where I'd rather the law err on the side of caution.
 
I disagee. Pre-teens and teens do not always appreciate the consequences of what they are doing, and their natural impulsivity prevents them, at times, from "knowing what they are doing". 13 is too young.

Though I agree, here, this is inconsistent and hypocritical with what you said, before.

I have no issues with 12/13 year olds having sex with one another as they would anyway even if it was illegal but i do have an issue with taking down the law of a adult having sex with a minor. Because it would lead to the question over child pornography which is also written into that law etc.
 
Try this. Tell us how the age of consent for sex will be determined in a workable, practical way.

Go to the county court, or the DMV or something, take at least a written exam about basics like, as silly as it may seem, how sex works, how stds are spread and what they are, how to use condoms, etc. If they get a given amount correct, give them some sort of permit to have consensual sex if that's what they want.
 
Should a 14 year old be able to appear in pornography?

Sure, if they want to and they did pass this hypothetical exam demonstrating they understand what they are doing.

Take part in a gangbang?

I don't there are seperate laws for age of consent and age of consent for gangbangs.

Work in a brothel?

Do brothels even exist in US?
 
Sure, if they want to and they did pass this hypothetical exam demonstrating they understand what they are doing.



I don't there are seperate laws for age of consent and age of consent for gangbangs.

That's kinda my point. If you lower the age of consent you're lowering it for every depraved, masochistic, perverted act that you can imagine, and many you can't

Do brothels even exist in US?

Yes, in Nevada
 
Go to the county court, or the DMV or something, take at least a written exam about basics like, as silly as it may seem, how sex works, how stds are spread and what they are, how to use condoms, etc. If they get a given amount correct, give them some sort of permit to have consensual sex if that's what they want.

Knowledge and the ability to use that knowledge are two different things. The overemotionality and impulsivity remain, affecting the use of that knowledge. Your answer does not address this issue.

Further, did you know that, in a study on condom use, 10% of adults got it right? Says a lot about knowledge and the ability to use it.
 
But that's just my argument, what if a 13 year old can demonstrate mental understanding of sexual intercourse?



Just as a side note, is that "Lean: Libertarian" a sarcastic joke? Because you sound an aweful lot like a communitarian conservative.

But on topic. I would like to see some evidence and explanation of this grand social decline you are talking about. As a society that values liberty we generally let the individual be responsible for their happiness and even their downfalls. If you're suggesting dictatorship in some venerable context against, well, libertarianism quite frankly, then that's a whole seperate topic and debate.

So only comm conservs reject the idea of embracing, condoning, and lauding 13 year olds having sex? Do 13 year olds have sex,yes? Do they make up the majority, no. Even if they did it doesn't mean we change our attitude on the matter. Do we accept the reality that there are 13 year olds smoking dope, yes, do we applaud and encourage it, no. No matter how much society, the media, etc try to rush turning children into adults, there will always be rules, and laws to abide by. It's not the end of the world!
 
Just as a side note, is that "Lean: Libertarian" a sarcastic joke? Because you sound an aweful lot like a communitarian conservative.
Libertarian does not mean libertine nor just the American libertarian party. I am a Communitarian-individualist because that is the only way to understand man, society and freedom. I'm a committed decentralist and in some sense libertarian though.

I mean I combine a communitarian, conservative streak with radical decentralism, a sort of libertarian socialist/distributist economic outlook with a thorough libertarianism that is however interpreted through my communitarian-individualist view of society.

So how exactly should I say I lean? There is no decentralist lean, I'm little like the average liberal and although I have a conservative streak I'm really not that conservative I only look that way to the very liberal or social democrat. Few conservatives would claim me as one when they knew my actual thoughts on most issues.

But on topic. I would like to see some evidence and explanation of this grand social decline you are talking about. As a society that values liberty we generally let the individual be responsible for their happiness and even their downfalls. If you're suggesting dictatorship in some venerable context against, well, libertarianism quite frankly, then that's a whole seperate topic and debate.
I'm talking about the breakdown of intermediate associations like family and local community which go a significant way to determine the personality, order, meaning and freedom of individuals. Man is a social anima, not a floating, autonomous atom.

If you want evidence well I'd start with Durkheim's On Suicide or anythng by Robert Nisbet. Or just witness the great increases in state power, the decline of traditional associations, the rise in mental health issues and suicide the later being as Durkheim saw the ultimate evidence of alienation from society, the rise in alcoholism, the rise of crime and other such problems over the last few centuries or so. The list goes on.

We did well in loosening the grip of the oppression of some of traditional society but we went too far into individualism and atomism. We did not replace the necessary bonds and associations that help shape and constitute men and we left him helpless. He naturally looked to such comforts as oftened by substances, consumerism, evangelical religion and mostly obviously the overbearing state. This is part of the ancient conservative realisation that the statism and corrosive individualism go together naturally.

I did post this from Robert Nisbet but you ignored it.

Conservatives, from Burke on, have tended to see the population much in the manner medieval legists and philosophical realists (in contrast to nominalists) saw it: as composed of, not individuals directly, but the natural groups within which individuals invariably live: family, locality, church, region, social class, nation, and so on. Individuals exist, of course, but they cannot be seen or comprehended save in terms of social identities which are inseparable from groups and associations. If modern conservatism came into existence essentially through such a work as Burke's attack on the French Revolution, it is because the Revolution, so often in the name of the individual and his natural rights, destroyed or diminished the traditional groups - guild, aristocracy, patriarchal family, church, school, province, etc. - which Burke declared to be the irreducible and constitutive molecules of society. Such early conservatives as Burke, Bonald, Haller, and Hegel (of The Philosophy of Right) and such conservative liberals as the mature Lamennais and of course Tocqueville, saw individualism - that is, the absolute doctrine of individualism - as being as much of a menace to social order and true freedom as the absolute doctrine of nationalism. Indeed, they argued, it is the pulverizing of society into a sandheap of individual particles, each claiming natural rights, that makes the arrival of collectivist nationalism inevitable.

De Maistre summed it up when he said he'd seen Frenchman, Italians, Englishmen, Germans and so on, he'd even heard of Persians but he'd never seen a man. Men do not exist outside the social associations they reside in and these are necessary to give him a fulfilling existence.
 
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Liberals rarely are it seems. Are you now?
And I'm not a liberal, so what does that have to do with anything?

It is these associations like family, local community, guilds, religious and fraternal associations which have been attacked for centuries by an atomising individualism and it eternal ally; centralising statism.
What does having sex at 13 have to do with family, local community, guilds, etc?
 
Should a 14 year old be able to appear in pornography?

Yes.

Take part in a gangbang?
Of course. Why not?

Work in a brothel?
In most states (or maybe all of them) the age you can start working is 16, so no. Not according to current laws on the matter. (which I don't necessarily agree with)

There's a lot more to sex than just sex, and that's an area where I'd rather the law err on the side of caution.

Caution for what? It's "cautionary" to convict a 14 yr old for a "crime" for having sex? How is that cautionary? Who does it help? You think it helps THEM deal with having sex?
 
And I'm not a liberal, so what does that have to do with anything?
You seem positively libertine and atomistic in your social views.

What does having sex at 13 have to do with family, local community, guilds, etc?
I was talking about it as a symptom of decay of these and similar institutions.
 
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You seem positively libertine and atomistic in your social views.


I was talking about it as a symptom of decay of these and similar institutions.

How is having sex a decay in those groups? What does my family have to do with my sex life?
 
How is having sex a decay in those groups? What does my family have to do with my sex life?
You haven't read Freud have you?:mrgreen:

Such laissez faire behaviour and attitudes to the young are part of the decay of these groups. As I posted earlier those with more stable and developed familial and community associations tend to engage in less of this behaviour.
 
You haven't read Freud have you?:mrgreen:

Such laissez faire behaviour and attitudes to the young are part of the decay of these groups. As I posted earlier those with more stable and developed familial and community associations tend to engage in less of this behaviour.

How so? And why? Why would a "more stable" family lend itself to a reduction of sexual desire? I really don't think think about my parents when I'm deciding whether or not to have sex. Nor do I think about my community. Do most people? Are my parents supposed to have some effect on my sexual desire?
 
Did you not read what I posted?

Too Soon for Sex? Teenage and Underage Sex

You are completely neglecting the social impact on the regulation and partial construction of individual personality, order, meaning and freedom. These relationships help to construct who we are, stable and healthy ones mediate against destructive libertine behaviour, particularly among the young, and corrosive atomisation.
 
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Yeah, I read it. Just doesn't make any sense. I don't recall ever having sex for some "validation" of myself. :confused: So, I don't get it. I guess some people do, people do some crazy ****. I just don't see what it "validates" about someone.

You are completely neglecting the social impact on the regulation and partial construction of individual personality, order, meaning and freedom. These relationships help to construct who we are, stable and healthy ones mediate against destructive libertine behaviour, particularly among the young, and corrosive atomisation.
How is having sex willingly "destructive"?
 
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