Should non-citizens in the USA be allowed to vote in federal elections?

[LouC]

Some cities now allow non-citizens to vote in their elections. President Bill Clinton removed the citizenship question from the 2000 census to have non-citizens counted for calculating allocation of Representatives in Congress, with Barrack Obama repeating this is 2010. So in fact non-citizens have identical representation as American citizens in the federal House of Representatives. Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

The Constitution had no mandate that only "Citizens" were to be counted in the Census for the purpose of apportionment of Representatives.

[A] Citizenship question on our census form does nothing in regards apportionment of Representatives in Congress.

It does do what it has been intended to do which is to intimidate non Citizens to not participate in the Census, regardless their legal status here in the country.

The notion that "most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting" is simply not supported by any factual evidence.

Historically, non Citizen voting in elections was once a common occurrence, but fell in and out of practice over time.

The Long, Strange History of Non-Citizen Voting
TANVI MISRA NOV 7, 2016

... In a 1993 paper in the Penn Law Review, Jamie Raskin, who was an American University law professor at the time (and one of the pioneers of non-citizens voting rights in Takoma Park), explained the history of what he called “alien suffrage”:
... The practice had its ups and down in the 18th century, but voting among immigrants was common at state, federal, and regional elections, and it was extremely popular at the local level. Suspicion towards foreigners spiked during the War of 1812, and in the lead-up to the Civil War, several states tweaked the criteria for voter eligibility or abolished non-citizen voting outright. The South codified its ban in the Confederate Constitution 1861, mainly because immigrants tended not to support slavery. But the practice returned after the Civil War and during Reconstruction, and in the 1860s and 1870s, immigrant voting was at its peak, as an incentive to lure foreign labor westward.
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2016/11/the-long-strange-history-of-non-citizen-voting/504974/

 

[calamity]

Some cities now allow non-citizens to vote in their elections. President Bill Clinton removed the citizenship question from the 2000 census to have non-citizens counted for calculating allocation of Representatives in Congress, with Barrack Obama repeating this is 2010. So in fact non-citizens have identical representation as American citizens in the federal House of Representatives. Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

Sure. If they live here, legally, and pay taxes, why should they not be allowed to vote?

 

[wellwisher]

Some cities now allow non-citizens to vote in their elections. President Bill Clinton removed the citizenship question from the 2000 census to have non-citizens counted for calculating allocation of Representatives in Congress, with Barrack Obama repeating this is 2010. So in fact non-citizens have identical representation as American citizens in the federal House of Representatives. Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

This is another thing that points to Democrat-Russian collusion, in general, and Obama-Clinton-Russian collusion in particular. The loud Democrat complaint and accusation after the Trump election was Russia tampering with the vote. The easiest way to do that is to allow Russian agents to directly vote as a non-citizen in blue states. If you combine this with the Democrat insistence on a porous border and sanctuary cities, the Russians don;t even have to hack anymore. This is one more reason to start another special investigation but now into the long term Democrat-Russian Collusion.

 

[jonny5]

Some cities now allow non-citizens to vote in their elections. President Bill Clinton removed the citizenship question from the 2000 census to have non-citizens counted for calculating allocation of Representatives in Congress, with Barrack Obama repeating this is 2010. So in fact non-citizens have identical representation as American citizens in the federal House of Representatives. Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

It seems pretty obvious that only members of a organization should be able to choose the representatives of that organization.

 

[TheParser]

Why, of course, non-citizens should vote.

Non-citizens already do vote, don't they?

In fact, every citizen should be required to drive a non-citizen to the polling station or at least babysit the non-citizen's children while the non-citizen goes to vote.

And in 2020, boy oh boy, non-citizens will be turning out by the millions -- even in the red states.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Non citizens voting in Federal, state, and any election is a common fear and suspicion among Conservatives.

So the left has no problem if Trump in the next election has 50 million Russians register to vote in our election. WOW!
So no need for the witch hunt. WOW!

Can they just mail in from China? They can decide our next election. No need for either party. That is one way to drain the swamp.

 

[MrWonka]

Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

Nonsensical garbage. In order to vote in a federal election, you do have to register and your citizenship is verified. That is true in all states. Liberals simply realize that if you're going to make a mistake it would be better to risk letting someone vote unlawfully than it would be to block a legitimate voter from exercising their constitutional rights.

The level of subterfuge and risk necessary for someone to try and impersonate a citizen in order to vote does a more than adequate job of eliminating unlawful voting. Additional checks and hoops to jump through would further limit voter participation in a country that already struggles to get voters to the polls as it is.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

I don't really have a problem with this, and if individual states want to allow it in local elections that should be their choice. Ultimately, I feel as though any person that is living full time in our society, paying our taxes, and subject to our laws should have some say in those laws. Roughly 60% of actual citizens don't seem to give a **** about their own country enough to take the time to vote once a year. If there are undocumented immigrants who care about our country enough to put that effort in then I say they deserve it as much as any citizen.

One of the founding principles of this country was the idea that Taxation without Representation is morally wrong. Well, there are a lot of immigrants in this country paying into our tax base who have no say in their representation and no ability to collect on many of the benefits they are helping to pay for.

 

[MrWonka]

Can I vote in Mexican elections?

Do you live in Mexico, and are you planning to stay there long term?

 

[MrWonka]

No. I don't care what level (local, State or Federal). Non citizens should not have a right to vote.

Should they be forced to pay our taxes then?

 

[MrWonka]

So the left has no problem if Trump in the next election has 50 million Russians register to vote in our election.

Are those Russians actually living in America on a long term basis? Are they paying our taxes, and subject to our laws? If so then I actually wouldn't have an issue with that. The issue with Russians or other non-citizens influencing our elections is that because they don't live in America, pay our taxes and are not subject to our laws they have no legitimate stake in our elections. They will not realistically suffer the outcomes that our citizens would if our leaders make poor choices, and in fact, they may even benefit if our leaders make poor choices that weaken our country.

But if Russian immigrants are living, working, and raising families here in America and they plan to for some time then their fate is tied to the choices our leaders make. I don't see how letting them put their two cents into the discussion is a problem.

 

[Moderate Right]

Some cities now allow non-citizens to vote in their elections. President Bill Clinton removed the citizenship question from the 2000 census to have non-citizens counted for calculating allocation of Representatives in Congress, with Barrack Obama repeating this is 2010. So in fact non-citizens have identical representation as American citizens in the federal House of Representatives. Additionally, most blue states have blocked any voter verification that offered any way to prevent non-citizens from voting.

The only thing remaining is allowing non-citizens exactly the same voting rights as citizens in federal elections.

Shows what a political hack Calamity really is.

 

[jonny5]

Do you live in Mexico, and are you planning to stay there long term?

Would it matter? If Im a US citizen living in Mexico, should I be choosing their leaders? Residents of the USA are still citizens of foreign countries.

 

[jonny5]

Should they be forced to pay our taxes then?

They arent forced. They are here by choice.

 

[MrWonka]

They arent forced. They are here by choice.

So are you. You can leave any time you'd like. I'm sure Russia would take you.

 

[MrWonka]

Would it matter? If I'm a US citizen living in Mexico, should I be choosing their leaders?

Why not? If you're living in Mexico long term would your life be more impacted by the choices of the leaders of Mexico or America?

Residents of the USA are still citizens of foreign countries.

So? Their lives are impacted by where they live. If you're living in working in Mexico would you want Mexico's economy to go to ****? Would you want them to pass a law that could radically curtail your freedom? Would you want them to start a pointless war that could get your family killed in retaliation?

If you were a U.S. Citizen living in Mexico for the next ten years would you care more about that tax rates in America or Mexico? Where are you the biggest stakeholder? Maybe if you still owned land back in America it would make sense for you to want to have a say in both countries. Maybe if you'd hoped to return someday I could see you wanting to vote in both places. But so long as you're a long term resident of Mexico it is the leadership of Mexico that will have the greatest impact on your life. Why shouldn't you have a say in the laws that will govern you?

 

[mike2810]

Should they be forced to pay our taxes then?

What do you think? If you visited a foreign land and purchased something would you have to pay the tax? If you worked in a different country would you have to abide by that countries tax laws? Do believe non citizens should be able to utilize the schools and other facilities that are paid for by taxes without following local/State/Federal tax laws?

Your question looses its meaning with the use of the word "forced".

 

[MrWonka]

What do you think? If you visited a foreign land and purchased something would you have to pay the tax? If you worked in a different country would you have to abide by that countries tax laws? Do believe noncitizens should be able to utilize the schools and other facilities that are paid for by taxes without following local/State/Federal tax laws?

Your question loses its meaning with the use of the word "forced".

By your logic, nobody is ever forced to do anything. As a U.S. Citizen, you can "choose" to move to a different country almost as easily as a migrant can go home. Basically, you're telling me that a migrant should have all the same burdens and priveledges that a citizen has except for the ability to influence those burdens and priveledges. Why not let them have that too?

Tell me...if someone chose of their own free will to migrate away from their homeland to a different country do you think it's because they like the laws of their new country better or worse than the laws of their old country?

Why would a migrant coming to a new country vote to change their new country's laws in order to try and make them more like their old country? I mean maybe if the choice was based almost entirely upon better weather I could understand that, but I feel confident saying there are not a lot of Mexicans coming to America for that reason.

 

[Waddy]

Of course non-citizens shouldn't vote. Crap, there are plenty of native born idiots that shouldn't have the vote. On both sides. Originally only land owners could vote; so this meant mostly white guys. They set it up that way because they figured rightly that land owners would have more of a stake in the community and they would be paying most all of the taxes. I say we go back to something like that. Only citizens who actually pay federal taxes should get to vote, no matter their ethnicity. That would sure trim the voter rolls.

 

[mike2810]

By your logic, nobody is ever forced to do anything. As a U.S. Citizen, you can "choose" to move to a different country almost as easily as a migrant can go home. Basically, you're telling me that a migrant should have all the same burdens and priveledges that a citizen has except for the ability to influence those burdens and priveledges. Why not let them have that too?

Tell me...if someone chose of their own free will to migrate away from their homeland to a different country do you think it's because they like the laws of their new country better or worse than the laws of their old country?

Why would a migrant coming to a new country vote to change their new country's laws in order to try and make them more like their old country? I mean maybe if the choice was based almost entirely upon better weather I could understand that, but I feel confident saying there are not a lot of Mexicans coming to America for that reason.

Interesting how you rambled on without answering my questions. Instead you ask more questions.

Citizenship has its privileges.
Tell us how are YOU being forced to do anything.

Tell us would you not expect those who " chose of their own free will to migrate away from their homeland to a different country" to 1. migrate legally, and 2. work towards citizenship in that new country? Once they become a citizen, then they would have the right to vote.

 

[MrWonka]

Interesting how you rambled on without answering my questions. Instead, you ask more questions.

No, that's you. You avoided my initial question by trying to claim that the migrant isn't being forced to do anything because they chose to come to that country, and if they don't like it they can choose to leave. But local citizens can choose to leave as well so a migrant is no less forced than a local. We decry taxation without representation. That was the foundation of our country. Why is it okay to tax migrants without representation, but not local citizens?

Citizenship has its privileges.

Why? Shouldn't everyone with a stake in the game have some influence over the rules that it is played by? Does a citizen have more to lose than a long term migrant?

Tell us would you not expect those who " chose of their own free will to migrate away from their homeland to a different country" to 1. migrate legally, and 2. work towards citizenship in that new country? Once they become a citizen, then they would have the right to vote.

Assuming that the immigration laws make sense, the migrant wasn't desperate, and there was a reasonable path towards citizenship I would. But if someone is being displaced by war, or suffering in poverty due to poor economic conditions I would not expect them to wait in an unreasonably long line to escape. Furthermore, I would trust this person given that their previous situation gives them a good inkling about what types of laws are bad, and I would not fear them messing up my country given that picked this country over hundreds of others.

 

[MrWonka]

Only citizens who actually pay federal taxes should get to vote, no matter their ethnicity.

So older retires shouldn't vote? Wouldn't this make those who own property and wealth want to prevent others from obtaining property and wealth? Wouldn't it be really easy for them to accomplish this given that they have complete control over the law?

That would sure trim the voter rolls.

We already have some of the lowest voter participation rates in the country. You seem to think the world would be a better place if a very small number of people had a ton of control over everyone else's life. Maybe a Democracy isn't right for you. Have you heard of Saudi Arabia? It seems like your kind of place.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

there is no federal law that bans non-citizens for voting in state or local elections. States do not allow it. I don't think they should be allowed to vote in even small city elections

 

[Sampson Simpson]

I think this is coming and if Democrats gain the Presidency and Congress they'll go for it. They are already doing so in some of their West Coast cities for local elections.

complete bull****. Why do you people just push ridiculous lies? God, its so pathetic and tired already\

This is another thing that points to Democrat-Russian collusion, in general, and Obama-Clinton-Russian collusion in particular. The loud Democrat complaint and accusation after the Trump election was Russia tampering with the vote. The easiest way to do that is to allow Russian agents to directly vote as a non-citizen in blue states. If you combine this with the Democrat insistence on a porous border and sanctuary cities, the Russians don;t even have to hack anymore. This is one more reason to start another special investigation but now into the long term Democrat-Russian Collusion.

Jesus forking christ, where do these trolls come from?

 

[Waddy]

So older retires shouldn't vote? Wouldn't this make those who own property and wealth want to prevent others from obtaining property and wealth? Wouldn't it be really easy for them to accomplish this given that they have complete control over the law?


We already have some of the lowest voter participation rates in the country. You seem to think the world would be a better place if a very small number of people had a ton of control over everyone else's life. Maybe a Democracy isn't right for you. Have you heard of Saudi Arabia? It seems like your kind of place.

I'm retired and I pay federal taxes. Most retirees do. If you had read closely I never suggested a land ownership restriction; I suggested being a federal taxpayer the requirement. I'll stand by that.

And, yeah, having fewer but better voters would be a good thing. The people who pay the freight should have the most say.

 

[mike2810]

No, that's you. You avoided my initial question by trying to claim that the migrant isn't being forced to do anything because they chose to come to that country, and if they don't like it they can choose to leave. But local citizens can choose to leave as well so a migrant is no less forced than a local. We decry taxation without representation. That was the foundation of our country. Why is it okay to tax migrants without representation, but not local citizens?


Why? Shouldn't everyone with a stake in the game have some influence over the rules that it is played by? Does a citizen have more to lose than a long term migrant?



Assuming that the immigration laws make sense, the migrant wasn't desperate, and there was a reasonable path towards citizenship I would. But if someone is being displaced by war, or suffering in poverty due to poor economic conditions I would not expect them to wait in an unreasonably long line to escape. Furthermore, I would trust this person given that their previous situation gives them a good inkling about what types of laws are bad, and I would not fear them messing up my country given that picked this country over hundreds of others.

We are not the EU. Even in the EU only 15 of the 28 countries allow non citizens to vote IF they meet certain residency requirement.

Citizens have a stake in the country they are a citizen of. Migrants have no long term stake. They may or may not have loyalty to the country they migrated to. Especially if they are escaping a war.

It would be interesting to see how many migrants really knew US laws before coming here. Especially those fleeing wars or poverty.

E