Should NATO disband?

[Rostocker]

Then you'd better pray the U.S. is still the leading world power. Because I guarantee you aren't going to like it if the Chinese or someone else takes up that role.

Why? There is no need for a world police.

 

[Grand Mal]

France and United Kingdom have a horrible history of enslavement, opression and genocide.

Germany had 12 bad years, UK and France ahd hundreds of horrible years. India to this days has not recovered from the genocidal rule of the british. But thats not the point.

We live in 2020 and things have changed. Germany today is seen as the most constructive and positive power in the world.

Germany replaces US as country with best international image | News | DW | 17.11.2017


When NATO dispands, Germany will need to go nuclear. Its that easy. For 75 years Germany lived under the american nuclear umbrella. This Umbrella is fading away now and the option to share nukes with UK and France is not there.

France explicit said that Germany needs its own stockpile and cant outsource the responsibility (there goes your bull**** argument that France would acat against a german bomb).

As this article states:

Why Germany Is Talking About Getting Its Own Nuclear Weapons

Having Decided It Can’t Rely On America, Germany Debates Acquiring Its Own Nuclear Weapons

You can read the debate in english here:

Why Germany Should Get the Bomb | The National Interest

Even the former polish foreign minister said: He is less worried about a german bomb than about the absence of a german bomb"

I might remind you that Poland doesnt think too high about us for historic reasons but they know strategy.

As USA is taken out of Europe, the French and UK are to weak to secure european security, simply because they lack the economic power. The key to Europe is Germany.

With NATO dissolution a german bomb is a strategic necesserity. Its that simple.

Germany stockpiled 2500 tons of Plutonium for exactly that reason and only because we were under teh american umbrella we did never obtain the bomb.

No matter how much we prop up our conventional military, we could never defend ourself against a nuclear power. Even small and weak countries like North Korea or Iran could force us to accept whatever they order.

And that Dayton is exactly the reason why even your own defense experts like Mattis say a german bomb is the only alternative for NATO.

To explain it: Imagine Iran has its first primitive nukes and a Germany without the NATO nuclear umbrella. The Ayatollah could threaten to nuke german cities and blackmail us to give them technology and trade.

You know what that means? Withon months the Ayatollah would have german technology which would allow him now to make his nukes mobile on a global scale.

Its the reason why polands foreign minister said he fears the absence of a german bomb much more than a german bomb.

German strategists know that, and thats the reason why we chose nuclear latency. We can build any nuclear device and even you admit that even so we disagree in the way how fast. I say in weeks and you say in months.

So you admit that german authorities have this scenario always in their mind

So the death of NATO is the birth of the german bomb.

There are american thinktanks who even say thats better for you guys since you save money

Germany didn't exist as a country till 1870-something. Before then it was a loose confederation of duchies, nation-states and the kingdom of Prussia. Germany pre-Bismark was pretty much the same as Italy pre-Garibaldi. German colonial history in Africa may have been brief but they made up for lost time in the atrocity department.
Those 12 bad years were a big percentage of the history of the German Empire.

 

[Rostocker]

Germany didn't exist as a country till 1870-something. Before then it was a loose confederation of duchies, nation-states and the kingdom of Prussia. Germany pre-Bismark was pretty much the same as Italy pre-Garibaldi. German colonial history in Africa may have been brief but they made up for lost time in the atrocity department.
Those 12 bad years were a big percentage of the history of the German Empire.

Germany was founded as kingdom 843 after Christ and predates France and UK

Kingdom of Germany - Wikipedia

As your first sentence was bull****, so was the rest.

 

[Grand Mal]

Germany was founded as kingdom 843 after Christ and predates France and UK

Kingdom of Germany - Wikipedia

As your first sentence was bull****, so was the rest.

Bull****. Germany (or should I say Germania because there was no country called Germany) was just part of the Holy Roman Empire for most of European history. That's why Prussia was a kingdom and Saxony was a duchy and Bavaria was still semi-independant after Bismark unified the country.
Why was the war called the Franco-Prussian War if there was a country called Germany?

 

[Rostocker]

Bull****. Germany (or should I say Germania because there was no country called Germany) was just part of the Holy Roman Empire for most of European history. That's why Prussia was a kingdom and Saxony was a duchy and Bavaria was still semi-independant after Bismark unified the country.
Why was the war called the Franco-Prussian War if there was a country called Germany?

The Holy ROman Empire was GErmany. Thats why it called itself Holy Roan Empire of German nation.

Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

“Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation 962-1806”

The areas you name were individual states into the greater German Kingdom.

The king himself called himself Rex Teutonicus, King of the Germans.

Why there was a Franco Prussian War? Same reason you had a war between nothern and southern US states.

I have news for you, the history of the german people is over 2000 years and even predates the german kingdom.

Now that i exposed your bull****, you can bugger off.

 

[Grand Mal]

The Holy ROman Empire was GErmany. Thats why it called itself Holy Roan Empire of German nation.

Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

“Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation 962-1806”

The areas you name were individual states into the greater German Kingdom.

The king himself called himself Rex Teutonicus, King of the Germans.

Why there was a Franco Prussian War? Same reason you had a war between nothern and southern US states.

I have news for you, the history of the german people is over 2000 years and even predates the german kingdom.

Now that i exposed your bull****, you can bugger off.

No, I dont do bugger of.
We arent talking about the history of the German people. Theres been a coutry called Germany since 1871. Thats when the King of Prussia became the Kaiser of Germany.
I never heard of Rex Teutonicus so I googled it. The Kingdom of the Teutons, Regnum Teutonicum, refers to East Frankia. The term Rex Germaniae, was to describe the Frankia king Louis to distinguish him from his brother who was the king f Gaul. Frankia fell apart at the death of Louis into Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia. This was all before the year 1000.
Germany didnt exist as a country before 1871. There was no capital of Germany, there was no ruler of Germany, there was no country called Germany.
Comparing the Franco-Prussian war to the American civil war is ridiculous. France and Prussia were separate countries.

 

[Rostocker]

No, I dont do bugger of.
We arent talking about the history of the German people. Theres been a coutry called Germany since 1871. Thats when the King of Prussia became the Kaiser of Germany.
I never heard of Rex Teutonicus so I googled it. The Kingdom of the Teutons, Regnum Teutonicum, refers to East Frankia. The term Rex Germaniae, was to describe the Frankia king Louis to distinguish him from his brother who was the king f Gaul. Frankia fell apart at the death of Louis into Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia. This was all before the year 1000.
Germany didnt exist as a country before 1871. There was no capital of Germany, there was no ruler of Germany, there was no country called Germany.
Comparing the Franco-Prussian war to the American civil war is ridiculous. France and Prussia were separate countries.

Wrong, There has never been a country called "Germany" since thats a english word. The countries name is Deutschland.

And that exists as nation sind 849 after christ. Before that is was known as germanic lands. The capital was Aachen.

Now bugger off. You start to bore me.

Beside that, your bull**** as nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Dayton3]

Why? There is no need for a world police.

Sure. Because the world is an orderly, law abiding place. There isn't a smiley big enough for this.

 

[Dayton3]

NATO is in its death throws and would not survive another 4 Trump years. When its dead, its dead.

Once again, you base whether a 65 year old alliance continues to exist on ONE American president who will be done (worst case) in a little more than four years???

Talk about petty and immature. One more reason Germans should never be trusted in a position of leadership.

 

[Bodi]

Europe seems strong enough to handle the Russian and Middle East situation.


We could cut our defense spending down from 3.4% to 2% and use that money for social programs.

We should stay in NATO but cut defense/military spending by a lot...

 

[Dayton3]

We should stay in NATO but cut defense/military spending by a lot...

You cut U.S. defense spending by "a lot" and it will reduce the current force levels to the point that the U.S. will be completely unable to conduct large scale military operations overseas without having to rely on a coalition of its allies for support.

though I suspect that is the goal of you and others.

 

[Bodi]

You cut U.S. defense spending by "a lot" and it will reduce the current force levels to the point that the U.S. will be completely unable to conduct large scale military operations overseas without having to rely on a coalition of its allies for support.

though I suspect that is the goal of you and others.

I thought you taught history? We seemed to be able to do it for World War II.

 

[Dayton3]

I thought you taught history? We seemed to be able to do it for World War II.

Modern wars are not like World War Two. The U.S. won't have two years to wait on the sidelines and slowly get ready. Dwight Eisenhower said the exact same thing in one of his famous speeches. The next major war will be a "come as you are" conflict. Where we fight with what we've got. No time to prepare.

 

[Bodi]

Modern wars are not like World War Two. The U.S. won't have two years to wait on the sidelines and slowly get ready. Dwight Eisenhower said the exact same thing in one of his famous speeches. The next major war will be a "come as you are" conflict. Where we fight with what we've got. No time to prepare.

Other than the invasion of the United States, which we would have tons of time to prepare for... what conflict do you see as one that might happen and that the USA will need to be ready to send an army around the world for? One that we have to fight for the USA to remain standing? Or for Europe to not crumble? We do not need to be all over the world all of the time. The USA can get ready for a war pretty quick if we want to.

 

[Dayton3]

Other than the invasion of the United States, which we would have tons of time to prepare for... what conflict do you see as one that might happen and that the USA will need to be ready to send an army around the world for? One that we have to fight for the USA to remain standing? Or for Europe to not crumble? We do not need to be all over the world all of the time. The USA can get ready for a war pretty quick if we want to.[/QUOTE
]

When the Russians try to seize the Baltic states. We have treaty obligations to defend them and the major European powers are not remotely capable of evicting the Russians from
there.

When the Chinese make overt moves to control the South China Sea.

The magazine "The Economist" had as their cover story of a couple of years ago "The Growing Danger of a Great Power War" that seriously examined the possibility of both conflicts.

 

[Rostocker]

Once again, you base whether a 65 year old alliance continues to exist on ONE American president who will be done (worst case) in a little more than four years???

Talk about petty and immature. One more reason Germans should never be trusted in a position of leadership.

Its Not about Trump, Trump is a Symptom.

And curb your racism

 

[Dayton3]

Its Not about Trump, Trump is a Symptom.

And curb your racism

1) You're the one who constantly brings up President Trump.
2) Germans are not a race.

 

[Rostocker]

1) You're the one who constantly brings up President Trump.
2) Germans are not a race.

Germans are an ethnicity.

Trump is the symptom. Even our foreign minister says that not much would change with Biden. The alliance is broken apart. Too much **** happened. You think If Biden comes here and does a mea culpa Tour, Things will get Like before?

 

[Dayton3]

Germans are an ethnicity.

Trump is the symptom. Even our foreign minister says that not much would change with Biden. The alliance is broken apart. Too much **** happened. You think If Biden comes here and does a mea culpa Tour, Things will get Like before?

It will if Germans improve their attitude.

 

[Rostocker]

It will if Germans improve their attitude.

Well Germany is seen as the worlds most admired power at the moment.

I dont see where we should change our attitude.

Well in one aspect we should change, thats true. We should become mroe ruthless against attempts from USA to be imperialist on us.

I understand EMrkels approach to simply ignroe USA and proceed as planned. That doesnt mean i like that approach. I would prefer more counterstrikes.

Merkel is not human, she has zero emotions and acts like a blackhole. Germany insulted, attacked. And she doesnt respond. She just proceeds as planned. That drives people mad.

Best example is Nordstream 2. She doesnt respond to any US attacks and simply moves forward with construction. Comments in media here are full that she must strike back but she simply ignores.

I prefer the old style from Gerhard Schröder but have to admit her passive aggressive way is very sucesfull.

 

[Dayton3]

Well Germany is seen as the worlds most admired power at the moment.

cite an unbiased source for that claim. As in NOT a European source.

 

[Rostocker]

cite an unbiased source for that claim. As in NOT a European source.

From the UK


Germany by far most admired country, with US, China and Russia vying for second – global poll | World news | The Guardian

Gallup is american btw.
Germany is the most admired country in the world for the third year running, leaving the US in a tight battle for distant second place with China and Russia, according to a new global leadership poll.

The annual poll, conducted by Gallup, casts more doubt on US secretary of state Mike Pompeo’s claim on Friday that the US was “perfectly positioned” to lead the free world in a new ideological rivalry with the Chinese Communist Party.

The US had a 33% global approval rating for 2019, just one percentage point ahead of China and 3% ahead of Russia. Germany outshines all three by a long stretch, with a 44% rating. These were the only four countries respondents were asked about.




And its just natural. We are seen as a constructive force. We dont intervene, have a strong economy, do alot of aid.

We also profit alot from trumps miserable image. Germany positioned itself often enough as sane and benevolent western power against Trumps erratic behavior.

 

[Dayton3]

From the UK


Germany by far most admired country, with US, China and Russia vying for second – global poll | World news | The Guardian

.

The Guardian is a left wing rag which has been strongly anti American since at least the 1980s.

I don't get you Rostocker. You're too young to have any decent reasons to be so anti American (even if you are a fervent German nationalist). You grew up in a united Germany. I've got to believe that members of your family grew up with strong anti American tendencies (given your parents and grandparents were East Germans) and passed them on to you.

For one you are full of the lies told that claimed that Stalin was prepared to allow Germany to reunite but the U.S. vetoed that idea. Why any of you Germans would believe Stalin given the millions of Germans he killed is utterly beyond me.

 

[Rostocker]

The Guardian is a left wing rag which has been strongly anti American since at least the 1980s.

I don't get you Rostocker. You're too young to have any decent reasons to be so anti American (even if you are a fervent German nationalist). You grew up in a united Germany. I've got to believe that members of your family grew up with strong anti American tendencies (given your parents and grandparents were East Germans) and passed them on to you.

For one you are full of the lies told that claimed that Stalin was prepared to allow Germany to reunite but the U.S. vetoed that idea. Why any of you Germans would believe Stalin given the millions of Germans he killed is utterly beyond me.

Gallup is american.

As for me or my parents / grandparents. I was pro america until few years ago. So were my parents. It went downhill in last couple of years as relations between our nations broke down.

 

[Dayton3]

Gallup is american.

As for me or my parents / grandparents. I was pro america until few years ago. So were my parents. It went downhill in last couple of years as relations between our nations broke down.

You can label President Trump a "symptom" if youu wish, but the bottom line is still that you are basing a decades long relationship on one man who is temporarily president.