Should Men Have a Say?

[Panache]

You tried this one before.

You simply sign away your obligations - and your rights - to a child when you donate.

Hey, there's a solution! Make the woman sign a contract that she won't seek child support if she gets pregnant! Like a pre-nup - call it a pre-****.

A few women might go for this. Those who know they don't want a child and would have an abortion for instance. Most will laugh you out of their bedroom.

I'm totally serious, even if most women won't believe it.

So ladies on this thread, would you sign such a document?

If the woman is the only one choosing to produce a child, why should the man be obligated? Just because some of his DNA was used by the woman in the process? How is that different from donating at a sperm bank?

 

[molten_dragon]

It's not a cop-out. It's reality, and it comes with responsibility. Refusing to deal with it is the cop out.

I'm starting to suspect that you're missing the point on purpose by now.

Responsibility has nothing to do with it.

You're using the argument "life's not fair, deal with it". That's not a valid argument. End of discussion.

 

[misterman]

If the woman is the only one choosing to produce a child, why should the man be obligated? Just because some of his DNA was used by the woman in the process? How is that different from donating at a sperm bank?

Yeah, women are just sperm banks. Great.

You realize that this quest of yours would cause you and the rest of manhood to never get laid again, don't you?

 

[misterman]

I'm starting to suspect that you're missing the point on purpose by now.

Responsibility has nothing to do with it.

You're using the argument "life's not fair, deal with it". That's not a valid argument. End of discussion.

It's really amazing that you can walk in here and say that a debate about supporting your children has nothing to do with responsibility. That's just amazing.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Why not a sperm bank? Is the fathers obligation not derived from his gentic contribution to the spawn?

People go to a sperm bank with the pre existing condition that the man will not be responsible for any offspring that result

Sure, it can result in pregnancy, but that doesn't mean it results in a birth. If it results in pregnancy then the parents need to decide whether they are going to keep the kid and become parents or not.

Not at all, when it is in the womb it is the sole responsibility of the woman. The man has nothing to do with it during that time frame. All he can do is offer his suggestions

If the guy doesn't want to be a parent, then the girl can choose to be a parent on her own, abort or give it up for adoption. In any event, when the guy says he doesn't want it, and abortion is still an option, then he is nothing more than a sperm donor at that point.

If the girl wants to use his sperm to create a baby for herself, that is fine, but since she is the only one choosing to have a baby, she should be the only one shouldering the responsibility for said baby.

Not all all

Should the women have the baby she can try to give it up for adoption, the man can instead take over the parental responsibility for the child and force the woman to pay child support. In that case the woman does not have a choice in being a parent, she is nothing more then an incubator and an egg donor


You keep ignoring the part where the man accepts the responsibility for the potential of parenthood when he decides to have sex. As he accepted that risk at the time of having sex, he accepts the responsibility that will result should a baby be born

 

[misterman]

You still don't get it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with allowing men to end a woman's pregnancy. It has nothing whatsoever to do with women being the ones that get pregnant. It is about the ability to choose whether or not you are going to be a parent after you've gotten pregnant (or impregnated someone).

Both men and women are biologically equipped to make this choice (women by aborting the pregnancy or abandoning the child, men by aborting the pregnancy, abandoning the child, or killing the woman). The only difference is that as a society we have said that a woman's methods of doing so are okay and a man's are not.

Yes. We have decided that forcing an abortion or killing the fetus through violence, abandoning a child, or killing the woman are all bad ways to avoid fatherhood. That's very astute.

:roll:

 

[molten_dragon]

It's really amazing that you can walk in here and say that a debate about supporting your children has nothing to do with responsibility. That's just amazing.

The debate isn't about supporting your children. The debate is about whether men should have the ability to choose whether they will have children or not.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The debate isn't about supporting your children. The debate is about whether men should have the ability to choose whether they will have children or not.

Right

And the men get that choice at the time of having sexual intercourse, or when the baby might be put up for adoption

A woman due to biology has one extra opportunity to make the choice of being a parent or not

 

[Panache]

Yeah, women are just sperm banks. Great.

No, woman are the people who use the sperm to make babies. If they can get the sperm without having to pay the bank, all the better for them.

You realize that this quest of yours would cause you and the rest of manhood to never get laid again, don't you?

How so? You think that no woman would ever have sex unless she could force the man into fatherhood in the event of a pregnancy?

Sorry to break it to you, but we didn't have child support laws 5000 years ago, and guys still got laid.

 

[molten_dragon]

Yes. We have decided that...abandoning a child...are all bad ways to avoid fatherhood.

I'm leaving the other two out, since I'm not advocating those as serious suggestions.

It's funny though how when a woman abandons a child into someone else's care it's called adoption and people have no problem with it.

If a man abandons a child into someone else's care then he's a deadbeat dad and it's a crime.

 

[misterman]

The debate isn't about supporting your children. The debate is about whether men should have the ability to choose whether they will have children or not.

Back to square one.

Men can decide whether to squirt their sperm in a woman. A woman can decide to let him. If a pregnancy results, she can decide to keep it or not, he has no say in that. That's the way it should be.

But there's no child until he/she is born. Then you are a father whether you like it or not.

Deal with it. Dealing with reality IS responsibility.

 

[molten_dragon]

Right

And the men get that choice at the time of having sexual intercourse, or when the baby might be put up for adoption

A woman due to biology has one extra opportunity to make the choice of being a parent or not

I've already debunked this argument. Men have that choice due to biology as well. The means by which they can make that choice are simply illegal.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I've already debunked this argument. Men have that choice due to biology as well. The means by which they can make that choice are simply illegal.

Well we are taking about legal choices here are we not? Also that is not a choice due to biology, that is an outside physical action

I could make the illegal choice to ensure none of you ever become parents, (forcible sterilization) but that is not one of the legal options we are talking about

 

[Panache]

People go to a sperm bank with the pre existing condition that the man will not be responsible for any offspring that result

And women should opt not to abort against the wishes of the man with the same understanding. Since at that time she is choosing to have a baby, and she is the only one choosing to have a baby, the baby should be her responsibility and hers alone.

Not at all, when it is in the womb it is the sole responsibility of the woman. The man has nothing to do with it during that time frame. All he can do is offer his suggestions

Once the woman takes full responsibility for the thing, its her responsibility. She shouldn't be able to force responsibility back on the guy without his consent.

Not all all

Should the women have the baby she can try to give it up for adoption, the man can instead take over the parental responsibility for the child and force the woman to pay child support. In that case the woman does not have a choice in being a parent, she is nothing more then an incubator and an egg donor

She was the one who chose to have the baby. It is her responsibility.

You keep ignoring the part where the man accepts the responsibility for the potential of parenthood when he decides to have sex. As he accepted that risk at the time of having sex, he accepts the responsibility that will result should a baby be born

When the guy has sex, he accepts the possibility that he will create a zygote. He should be prepared to pay at least half the cost required to terminate the zygote.

If the girl unilaterally chooses to turn that zygote into a baby, that's all on her.

 

[misterman]

I've already debunked this argument. Men have that choice due to biology as well. The means by which they can make that choice are simply illegal.

Yes.

And?

 

[molten_dragon]

Back to square one.

Men can decide whether to squirt their sperm in a woman. A woman can decide to let him. If a pregnancy results, she can decide to keep it or not, he has no say in that. That's the way it should be.

All of this is true, you're doing well so far.

But there's no child until he/she is born.

Also true, but I'm not sure why you think it's relevant.

Then you are a father whether you like it or not.

This is the part that should be changed. Men should legally have as much time to decide whether or not they will be a father as woman have to decide whether or not they will be a mother.

Deal with it. Dealing with reality IS responsibility.

Oh look, we're back to Misterman's secret code for "I have no real way to rebut what you've said, so I'll throw this meaningless catchphrase out in the hopes that you'll be distracted and quit smashing my face in in this debate.

 

[misterman]

She was the one who chose to have the baby. It is her responsibility.

That's the sickness of all this: you want to claim the right to say to a woman "either abort your kid or raise him without any help from his father."

Where's the guy who keeps bashing me about abortion? Where'd he go?

 

[misterman]

This is the part that should be changed. Men should legally have as much time to decide whether or not they will be a father as woman have to decide whether or not they will be a mother.

Men do have the right to decide. No man is forced to be a father.

I've never seen such a pathetic display of rationalization.

 

[molten_dragon]

Well we are taking about legal choices here are we not?

More specifically we're talking about whether or not one of a man's ways to choose (abandonment) should be legal. There's nothing to talk about if the subject is "what is already legal".

Also that is not a choice due to biology, that is an outside physical action

Abortion is an outside physical action as well, as is putting the kid up for adoption, so I fail to see how this is relevant to the debate.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

And women should opt not to abort against the wishes of the man with the same understanding. Since at that time she is choosing to have a baby, and she is the only one choosing to have a baby, the baby should be her responsibility and hers alone.

Nope sorry, she accepted the possibility of becoming pregnant during the sex act, not of becoming a parent.

Once the woman takes full responsibility for the thing, its her responsibility. She shouldn't be able to force responsibility back on the guy without his consent.

Again she has the responsibility for fetuss because it is one that she can not share. I would support transfering the fetus to the man instead of the woman having an abortion

She was the one who chose to have the baby. It is her responsibility.



When the guy has sex, he accepts the possibility that he will create a zygote. He should be prepared to pay at least half the cost required to terminate the zygote.

If the girl unilaterally chooses to turn that zygote into a baby, that's all on her.

Nope

He accepted the possibility of a baby being born during the sex act. It is as simple as that. He cant have an abortion to terminate the pregnancy as he is not pregnant. So he does not get the choice of whether a baby is born or not after conception occurs, but due to the responsibity incurred at the time of the sex act he is financially as responsible for the child (if born) as is the women

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

More specifically we're talking about whether or not one of a man's ways to choose (abandonment) should be legal. There's nothing to talk about if the subject is "what is already legal".

And if both parents choose abandonment? (ie real abandonment where the baby is put into a sack and left outdoors for the animals)

Abortion is an outside physical action as well, as is putting the kid up for adoption, so I fail to see how this is relevant to the debate.

 

[Panache]

That's the sickness of all this: you want to claim the right to say to a woman "either abort your kid or raise him without any help from his father."

What is sick about that?

If both genetic contributors want the kid, they can both be parents. If the girl is the only one that wants the kid, then she can be a parent on her own. If the guy is the only one that wants the kid, he better hope the girl is willing to carry it for him. If not, he is SOL.

Where's the guy who keeps bashing me about abortion? Where'd he go?

What guy is that?

 

[molten_dragon]

Men do have the right to decide. No man is forced to be a father.

:sigh: Once again, you're not reading what I'm writing down. Here, I'll post it again for you.

Men should legally have as much time to decide whether or not they will be a father as woman have to decide whether or not they will be a mother.

There you go. I even bolded the important part for you to make it easier to pick out.

I've never seen such a pathetic display of rationalization.

What exactly do you think I'm trying to rationalize?

 

[misterman]

What is sick about that?

If both genetic contributors want the kid, they can both be parents. If the girl is the only one that wants the kid, then she can be a parent on her own. If the guy is the only one that wants the kid, he better hope the girl is willing to carry it for him. If not, he is SOL.

And what about the kid? Forget about the kid?

 

[misterman]

There you go. I even bolded the important part for you to make it easier to pick out.

Men should legally have as much time to decide whether or not they will be a father as woman have to decide whether or not they will be a mother.

Fine - impose a nine-month waiting period before you can have sex.