Should healthcare be rationed according to a person’s value in society?

[Hawkeye10]

All governments try, but the US gets some of the worst results for what it spends.

You are so optimistic!

It would be interesting to see some evaluation criteria that does not have America spending healthcare money the worst...to find some system that is more inefficient than ours.

Sounds like a Extreme Challenge.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

You are so optimistic!

It would be interesting to see some evaluation criteria that does not have America spending healthcare money the worst...to find some system that is more inefficient than ours.

Sounds like a Extreme Challenge.

The numbers aren't difficult to find. If you have something contradictory, show it.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The numbers aren't difficult to find. If you have something contradictory, show it.

I sense that you have failed to comprehend my post....I have not contradicted you, I have supported your claim.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Yes, people should be citizens of this country to have access to free healthcare funded by the government. Emergencies, however, need to be dealt with. True emergencies. If an illegal is choking to death, for example, he or she needs to be helped. Otherwise, we are little better than animals.

So, you mean, people who think like this:

Education.

K-12 education for free.

K-12 free lunches.

College rates lower than American citizens from other states.

Care and medical supplies when you use the emergency room as your primary care.

Everything gained while using fake IDs.

Are no better than animals.

His response was to my question:

Be honest, what exactly is it you think illegals get subsidized here in CA?
Specifics, please.

He seems to have a problem with illegals being treated for medical emergencies in an ER, and even K-12 education.
The alternative of course being stacks of dead piling up in the streets, and the disease pandemics that would ensue as a result, and hoards of truants running around everywhere.

Yeah, that's the better approach :lamo

 

[Atheist 2020]

It is weird about American healthcare with the American right. They want small government, little government, and looks to the past of the founding fathers. At the turn of the 20th century, the average lifespan of a white male was 47 years old. It strange to see a 70 something white male talking about small government of the past when he would have been dead for decades years ago if his life was like the founding fathers.

I would not ration health care if it limits or has a downturn on lifespans. But, if we are dying, I do not support spending a million dollars or more to give a person an extra nine months of life. If someone only has a high school education, and had the skills to go to college, but our society, force he/she from going to college because he/she could not afford it. We as a society, would stop someone from getting a undergrad degree, and they are stopped from a better job. But, our society would spend millions of dollars just to get an extra nine months of life.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

I sense that you have failed to comprehend my post....I have not contradicted you, I have supported your claim.

My mistake: sarcasm, or the lack thereof, is sometimes difficult to detect from just a post.

 

[Fledermaus]

So, you mean, people who think like this:

Are no better than animals.

His response was to my question:

He seems to have a problem with illegals being treated for medical emergencies in an ER, and even K-12 education.
The alternative of course being stacks of dead piling up in the streets, and the disease pandemics that would ensue as a result, and hoards of truants running around everywhere.

Yeah, that's the better approach :lamo

Way to ignore the point....

"Care and medical supplies when you use the emergency room as your primary care."

Is that in any way preventing the use of the Emergency Room for EMERGENCIES?

And YOU asked what they were subsidized for.

DON'T ASK THE EFFING QUESTION IF YOU INTEND NOT TO ACCEPT THE ANSWER.

The illegal immigrants are subsidized those things.

Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Way to ignore the point....

"Care and medical supplies when you use the emergency room as your primary care."

Is that in any way preventing the use of the Emergency Room for EMERGENCIES?

And YOU asked what they were subsidized for.

DON'T ASK THE EFFING QUESTION IF YOU INTEND NOT TO ACCEPT THE ANSWER.

The illegal immigrants are subsidized those things.

Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?

All poor people who can't afford proper healthcare have to use the ER.
Fix the problem of affordable access to healthcare first, then we can deal with how illegals access emergency services.
I did ask what subsidies illegals get, and the fact is, they get the same thing in every state.
Name ONE state that turns illegals away from an ER, show me the dead stacked up in one state.

Because if a state refuses to treat illegals, or anyone, at an ER, that's what you're going to wind up with, and that's a helluva lot bigger problem.

 

[Fledermaus]

All poor people who can't afford proper healthcare have to use the ER.
Fix the problem of affordable access to healthcare first, then we can deal with how illegals access emergency services.
I did ask what subsidies illegals get, and the fact is, they get the same thing in every state.
Name ONE state that turns illegals away from an ER, show me the dead stacked up in one state.

Because if a state refuses to treat illegals, or anyone, at an ER, that's what you're going to wind up with, and that's a helluva lot bigger problem.

Are or are not illegal aliens subsidized?

The truth is "are".

You asked.

I answered.

The next time you ask a question you don't want an answer to try prefacing it with "I really don't care about the answer"

 

[holbritter]

By 2030, one in five Americans will be over age 65, and the healthcare system is just beginning to feel the burden. This age-pocalypse is affecting many countries around the world. In China, the population of people over 65 is expected to jump from 8% to 24% in just 30 years. Should the younger generations work tirelessly to pay for the retirements of their parents and grandparents as well as extending their lives? Americans think so… at least until they have to pay for it out of their own pockets. Spending someone else’s money is always easier. And what about the people who make poor decisions which affect their health like smoking or IV drug use? Should an IV drug user receive a $100,000 heart valve replacement surgery after contracting endocarditis? Should tax payers be forced to pay for heart stents and diabetes treatments for the morbidly obese? How about 20 plus years of treatments for COPD? Chronic illnesses in the US cost billions of dollars each year.
https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/about/costs/index.htm

Who pays for universal healthcare? Liberals say: The corporations will! But people should know by now that corporations worm their way out of paying taxes when ever possible. Besides, even Bernie Sanders admitted that the middle class would be paying more taxes for universal healthcare. Which segment of the population will take the cuts when Medicare covers everyone? The so called “vulnerable” will because they cost the most and give back to society the least tangible benefits. The good side to all this is that if we can rationally agree to certain guidelines for a single payer system, there is already a system in place we can use. Expanding Medicare would be the best option for a single payer system in the US.

(These character limitations really annoy me. I cut and clipped.. still had to make this two posts. Anyhow, I look forward to other perspectives on this topic!)

What is ridiculous is the high cost of those procedures. Take care of that and things would change tremendously.

 

[holbritter]

Yes, people should be citizens of this country to have access to free healthcare funded by the government. Emergencies, however, need to be dealt with. True emergencies. If an illegal is choking to death, for example, he or she needs to be helped. Otherwise, we are little better than animals.

Most of the elderly didn't pay into the system what they take out of it. This also includes social security. Caring for the elderly is one of the largest expenses the government pays for... I know that's not a pleasant topic, but it's true. And it needs to be addressed.

How old are you? Just curious. And what age do you consider elderly?

 

[holbritter]

None of these overpriced and unsustainable systems will be in place when and if I turn 65. And yes, regardless of how much the elderly pay out of pocket, these systems are still too expensive. Why is it selfish for younger generations to not want to drown under the weight of caring for the elderly? Why is it acceptable for the elderly to expect that their lives and care will cost so much? They don't seem to mind burdening younger generations at all.

What a selfish ignorant statement. Wow....just wow.

 

[Atheist 2020]

All governments try, but the US gets some of the worst results for what it spends.

I'm the child of the Great Society, and the reason why it failed for me. Because I grew up in a rural community were you have to be born into the community to be accepted. And, with that culture, the goal was to make the system to fail. It is the same reason now, a willful design to make a policy fail at the local level by local political leaders. I live in the south now, and anything disliked from the national government with local enforcement is to make it fail. If you believe it failed for you, you blame the the federal government even that it was designed to fail with the local government. Irony, you reward the local government and vote against the national government.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Are or are not illegal aliens subsidized?

The truth is "are".

You asked.

I answered.

The next time you ask a question you don't want an answer to try prefacing it with "I really don't care about the answer"

Yes, we provide free K-12 education and ER to illegals...BFD
The next time you respond with another BFD, don't whine about the fact that I called you on it.
Your implied alternative is to deny illegal kids an education and to let people die in front of an Emergency Room.

So, I do "care" about your answer. I care enough to say that your idea makes us no better than animals.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

I'm the child of the Great Society, and the reason why it failed for me. Because I grew up in a rural community were you have to be born into the community to be accepted. And, with that culture, the goal was to make the system to fail. It is the same reason now, a willful design to make a policy fail at the local level by local political leaders. I live in the south now, and anything disliked from the national government with local enforcement is to make it fail. If you believe it failed for you, you blame the the federal government even that it was designed to fail with the local government. Irony, you reward the local government and vote against the national government.

Maybe that mindset is the reason people say that small-town America is dying.

 

[Fledermaus]

Yes, we provide free K-12 education and ER to illegals...BFD
The next time you respond with another BFD, don't whine about the fact that I called you on it.
Your implied alternative is to deny illegal kids an education and to let people die in front of an Emergency Room.

So, I do "care" about your answer. I care enough to say that your idea makes us no better than animals.

Take your "implied" and shove it.

There was nothing "implied".

Hence the question I already knew the answer to: "Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?"

You asked a question and tried to twist the answer.

Effing dishonest.

 

[Atheist 2020]

Maybe that mindset is the reason people say that small-town America is dying.

If you are a international company, like Apple that official crossed over one trillion dollars as a American company value. Your not interested in a local store selling products to the general public. If you are a hospital, dealing with complex health care issues, your really not interested in small communities -- because the local population will hate you with increasing the cost of their home.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

So, what are you saying? That you favor letting the elderly suffer and die and saving the illegals instead?

Let me tell you what -- it's already happening -- it's called Hospice.

1. We can do both. We can provide life saving care to anyone that shows up at a hospital needing it, and we can provide healthcare to the elderly. We have been doing so now for 50 years. What are you going to do, put someone like Charles Manson in charge of admitting? I say this because only a total psychopath could sleep at night denying lifesaving care to anyone that showed up in front of them in need of it.

2. Hospice is not a cause of death and suffering. I watched my mother die as horrible of a death as one can imagine at age 56 from cancer. Hospice was a godsend at the end, they did everything imaginable to ease her suffering and provide her with the care she needed to be able to spend her last couple of weeks in her home and die in her own home rather than in a hospital bed.

Some people are evidently living in this fantasy world in regards to healthcare. You know damn well if that if you were put in charge of admitting in the ER, its your call whether an illegal gets life saving care or not, and you will admit them so they get the life saving care they need then, regardless of the cost, because you would not be able to sleep at night knowing they would just die in the street otherwise.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Take your "implied" and shove it.

There was nothing "implied".

Hence the question I already knew the answer to: "Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?"

You asked a question and tried to twist the answer.

Effing dishonest.

LOL, great Johnny Paycheck impersonation.

 

[Fledermaus]

LOL, great Johnny Paycheck impersonation.

Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Did I state, infer or imply any of those be removed from access?

No, you're bitching about them enough that it doesn't really matter IF you did or not.
Don't forget, this started originally in a thread that was devoted to bashing California, which is where you jumped in, if I am not mistaken.
Somehow, California must be evil, according to you, because we educate people whose kids might be here illegally, and we let them go to the ER.
From here on out, you'll be talking to yourself.

 

[Fledermaus]

No, you're bitching about them enough that it doesn't really matter IF you did or not.
Don't forget, this started originally in a thread that was devoted to bashing California, which is where you jumped in, if I am not mistaken.
Somehow, California must be evil, according to you, because we educate people whose kids might be here illegally, and we let them go to the ER.
From here on out, you'll be talking to yourself.

I bolded all that is not the answer.

The bolded is goalpost moving strawman BS.

BTW it was YOU that brought this over here in Post #29..

Don't blame me for another of your cockups.

 

[Oceanborn]

This is a false statement. The rest of your OP can be safely dismissed /thread.

Did you bother to read the links I provided? No. Please go back and read them, and then respond with an actual argument. Thank you.

So, you mean, people who think like this:



Are no better than animals.

His response was to my question:

He seems to have a problem with illegals being treated for medical emergencies in an ER, and even K-12 education.
The alternative of course being stacks of dead piling up in the streets, and the disease pandemics that would ensue as a result, and hoards of truants running around everywhere.

Yeah, that's the better approach :lamo

Everyone is entitled to emergency care. If we secured the borders and enforced the immigration laws, providing healthcare and education would not be as much of an issue. I believe that education should be government funded because everyone is entitled to be educated and not everyone can afford to provide it for their children. I also have a difficult time turning away any child, illegal or not, from a public school. But then, I acknowledge that this is an emotional argument on my part. I am partial to children.

What is ridiculous is the high cost of those procedures. Take care of that and things would change tremendously.

How do you suggest that we "take care of that”?

How old are you? Just curious. And what age do you consider elderly?

Age is just a number. I consider someone elderly when they cannot work to provide for themselves, and require the care of family, friends and/or society to live.

What a selfish ignorant statement. Wow....just wow.

Why is it selfish and ignorant? You don’t consider it selfish that an entire generation of people expect to be cared for by younger generations regardless of the cost? Could these people have at least better prepared for their own retirements?

 

[MrWonka]

Did you bother to read the links I provided? No. Please go back and read them, and then respond with an actual argument. Thank you.

Your entire argument is based upon that one statement. That statement is false. Please close this pointless thread.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Everyone is entitled to emergency care. If we secured the borders and enforced the immigration laws, providing healthcare and education would not be as much of an issue. I believe that education should be government funded because everyone is entitled to be educated and not everyone can afford to provide it for their children. I also have a difficult time turning away any child, illegal or not, from a public school. But then, I acknowledge that this is an emotional argument on my part. I am partial to children.

It's not actually "emotional" but this is: I'm so fed up with people who gloat over ideas being "emotional" that I start experiencing the emotion of wanting to slap them upside the head.
We're not machines, so it's perfectly okay to use a certain amount of "emotion" when thinking about issues.
But even putting emotion aside, allowing a generation of uneducated illegals is an incredibly stupid idea, perhaps unforgivably stupid, and certainly as stupid as allowing a generation of uneducated American kids, to be sure...which we seem intent upon doing already.

It's also incredibly expensive. Education is always cheaper than ignorance. The more we educate, the less we spend on crime, welfare and every other thing that conservatives love to WHINE ABOUT BY THE TRAINLOAD.

Want to pay less for welfare? Make sure the coming generation is very well educated.
Want to pay less for housing criminals, and crime in general? Same thing.
Want to pay less for other people's healthcare? Smart, educated people take better care of themselves.

Education cures a multitude of societal sins, thus the more access we provide for EVERYONE to get a full education, the better off we wind up on the whole.
At age sixty-one, I've DEFINITELY heard EVERY SINGLE Right wing and libertarian argument for NOT wanting to pay for this stuff, not just here on DP either. I am not an idiot and I am not interested in the juvenile ego stroke of "winning an argument", so if there ever had been a convincing argument to NOT pay for all this stuff, I would have heard it a long time ago and I'd support it.

I haven't..ever...not ever...ever ever ever. Never.
Because ALL of the arguments against paying for all that stuff center around one thing and one thing only:
Stingy, selfish greed.

And it's despicable.

And if we do NOT educate everyone, then it's damn sure that EVERYONE will eventually HAVE "no value".
Way to go!!