Should Dems move to the Right of Biden?

[Ouroboros]

So if the initial invasion was justified, then America is justified in occupying the country literally forever as long as someone fights back?

Is twenty years "forever" in your world?

I think it's fine to say we were justified going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in October 2001. But that mostly ended by December 2001. It's hard to see what we were accomplishing for the other 20 years.

Why didn't Obama withdraw, then?

OK, not all of them. I'll give Trump roughly the same 6-9 month grace period that I gave to Biden, for the war he inherited. That should be enough time to plan and execute a withdrawal if that's what he wanted to do. Trump is responsible for all the others though, because he made the decision to continue occupying Afghanistan for those four years he was in office.

And Obama is responsible for all the Afghan deaths on his watch, right? For some reason you keep leaving him out of your equation. But then, Obama Derangement Syndrome is still the secret shame of Mad Libs.

Obama was no example of good governance when it came to Afghanistan either. He is very much to blame as well.

Then why are you giving him a pass?

What is your definition of "hurrying to leave"? Again, the war went on for TWENTY YEARS. Trump had four years to withdrawal. Hell, Biden himself took 7 months, which isn't excessive but not exactly a short amount of time. If Trump can't get it done in four years, then it's not about hurrying to leave. It's about not wanting to leave.

Did Biden inherit Trump's plan to withdraw, or did he not? You keep avoiding this matter. I don't know why, since when Biden effed up the operation the Mad Libs all tried to blame Trump for Biden's screwup.

Trump had four years and didn't execute a withdrawal. "Making a plan" and not doing it doesn't get him any credit. He had plenty of time.

Says you, and you only.

Biden inherited a war and smartly chose to end it. It's unclear if the casualties during the withdrawal were preventable if America had acted differently (perhaps they were), but what is indisputable is that Trump had 5x the casualties in Afghanistan during his watch.

He inherited Trump's plan to withdraw but screwed the pooch royally. Casualties on Trump's watch are not comparable to Biden's eff-ups.

 

[Gatsby]

Is twenty years "forever" in your world?


Why didn't Obama withdraw, then?

You'd have to ask him. I'm sure he had some dumb reason for occupying Afghanistan too, just like Trump did. Doesn't mean it was a good reason.

And Obama is responsible for all the Afghan deaths on his watch, right? For some reason you keep leaving him out of your equation. But then, Obama Derangement Syndrome is still the secret shame of Mad Libs.

Every single time you've brought up Obama, I've said he is to blame too. Just because certain participants in this thread are ignorant partisan morons doesn't mean I have to be.

Then why are you giving him a pass?

I don't know where you got the impression I was giving him a pass or how much clearer I can possibly be.

Did Biden inherit Trump's plan to withdraw, or did he not? You keep avoiding this matter.

I don't know to what extent Biden's withdrawal was based on plans developed during the Trump Administration and to what extent they were developed after January 2021. It hardly matters. Trump had four years to execute a withdrawal and declined to do so.

Says you, and you only.

Hmm nope, says everyone. Trump was the commander-in-chief from January 20, 2017 to January 20, 2021. If my math is correct, that's four years.

He inherited Trump's plan to withdraw but screwed the pooch royally. Casualties on Trump's watch are not comparable to Biden's eff-ups.

Why not? Why didn't Trump execute a withdrawal from Afghanistan himself in the four years that he had the opportunity to do so?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Yesterday's meme is just about as fresh as yesterday's ice cream left out in the sun.

It's not a meme. It's Elon Musk's blatant antisemitism being excused by the pro-Israel crowd because he simps for Israel.

 

[Dans La Lune]

If those particular Jews supported marginalizing Jewish-Americans at those respective colleges,

Define marginalizing.

then of course they're part of the quest to reduce the majority of Jews to second-class status.

Not everyone views society as a hierarchy, where you have to punch down on others to earn your place.

I can only assume they've substituted some other personal identity in place of their Jewish heritage-- being a Socialist, for example.

If you conflate Jewish identity with support for Israel, you're simply an antisemite.

And as for Socialists... well, first they (Nazis) came for the Socialists second. Jews were further down the list.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Is twenty years "forever" in your world?

It is if it continues. The war would inevitably end when the Sun explodes.

Why didn't Obama withdraw, then?

Because he was largely a warmongering establishment hack.

Did Biden inherit Trump's plan to withdraw, or did he not? You keep avoiding this matter. I don't know why, since when Biden effed up the operation the Mad Libs all tried to blame Trump for Biden's screwup.

Trump

Says you, and you only.

He inherited Trump's plan to withdraw but screwed the pooch royally. Casualties on Trump's watch are not comparable to Biden's eff-ups.

Scathing report on US withdrawal from Afghanistan blames Trump and Biden

State department’s findings also reflect poorly on Antony Blinken as it outlines the agency’s failure to expand crisis taskforce

www.theguardian.com

Timeline of U.S. Withdrawal from Afghanistan - FactCheck.org

We lay out many of the key diplomatic decisions, military actions, presidential pronouncements and expert assessments of the withdrawal agreement that ended the U.S. military's 20-year war in Afghanistan.

www.factcheck.org

Trump ordered rapid withdrawal from Afghanistan after election loss

The memo was among the latest revelations from the congressional committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol building.

www.militarytimes.com

The Trump administration negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the Taliban in February 2020, which set a deadline for the complete withdrawal of U.S. troops by May 1, 2021. This agreement excluded the Afghan government and included provisions such as the release of 5,000 imprisoned Taliban soldiers, despite ongoing attacks by the Taliban against Afghan government forces. The Trump administration reduced U.S. troop levels from about 13,000 to 2,500, even though the Taliban continued to violate the terms of the agreement by integrating al-Qaeda members into their leadership.

...

In summary, while the Biden administration faced criticism for the execution of the withdrawal and evacuation, the roots of the challenges can be traced back to decisions made during the Trump administration, particularly the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the reduction of U.S. troop levels.

 

[The Brad Dad]

I didn't know Obama was a Republican. What did he do in his eight-year tenure to end Afghan occupation?

We're not at war with Iran, since you have failed to notice that little fact.

Yeah Republicans created these wars, Iraq was all lies, and you still wanna know why the black guy didn't fix it.

 

[The Brad Dad]

See post 771.

No.

 

[The Brad Dad]

I gave you a citation of the marginalization in post 759, as well as Trump's correct response to it.

You gave shit and it read as same.

 

[The Brad Dad]

Is Biden a dotard for doing the same thing in your little world?

Trump criticized for using antisemitic slur in Iowa speech

Jewish advocacy groups slammed President Donald Trump after he used an antisemitic trope to praise the passage of his spending bill.

abcnews.go.com

Assuming you read the piece, you'll see ABC mention that Biden apologized for using the term. But the point remains that his defense was the same as Trump's: that he thought "Shylock" was just a word connoting a predatory banker/moneylender. And since when Biden got into power, he enabled bigoted activists to marginalize Jews on American campuses, so in practice, he's still the anti-Semite all the way.

You had to get out in front of Biden apologizing because you knew I'd ask you where Trump's was. Sorry, I'm not in a cult. Between the two guys who called me shylocks, one apologized and one's base keeps telling me what Trump really meant.

It's not a coincidence that the responses match the individual base's attitudes.

 

[Master Debator]

Nope, still you being uncritical by accepting the verdict of a one-party state against a hated representative of the opposing side.

The jury is the defintion of critical. They are a deliberative body who's job it is to determine the facts. What I'm not accepting is your baseless questioning of their conclusion. You've given absolutely no reason to distrust the verdict.

Are you admitting that you are a Mad Lib dimwit?

Are you seeking validation for your feelings?

That's who I said was guilty of persecuting Jews in this country, and that one of their main justifications was that Israel was covalent to colonialism. How about you take a stand on that subject? Is Israel a colonial project?

Yes. The creation of Israel was an example of colonialism. What does that fact have to do with antisemitism?

Of course you would befriend Jews who are too Mad Libbish to protect other Jews from Mad Libs like Biden.

What? I don't even know what any of that means. Did you write that passage with Mad Libs?

Speaking of which I forgot how much I used to enjoy those as a kid. It does seem fitting that Mad Libs would be your jam seeing how fond you are of substituting your feelings for facts.

It's still Leftie Lunatics swarming onto campuses and trying to treat modern Jews, regardless of political sympathies, the way Blacks were treated in the Jim Crow years.

How so? Explain that one to me. Id love to hear it in more detail.

Nope, the things Biden did to impress his base had real consequences and none of your hand-waving changes that.

No one's hand movements are going to change the fact that what you posted was an opinion piece about what the author feels contributed to anti Semitism. But there you go Mad Libing feelings for facts again.

Great deflection from your refusal to condemn Biden's discriminatory DEI policies.

What deflection? Name a policy and we can talk about it. I can't deflect from what you haven't present yet.

 

[Ouroboros]

You'd have to ask him. I'm sure he had some dumb reason for occupying Afghanistan too, just like Trump did. Doesn't mean it was a good reason.

Every single time you've brought up Obama, I've said he is to blame too. Just because certain participants in this thread are ignorant partisan morons doesn't mean I have to be.

It would be a first.

I don't know where you got the impression I was giving him a pass or how much clearer I can possibly be.

I don't know to what extent Biden's withdrawal was based on plans developed during the Trump Administration and to what extent they were developed after January 2021. It hardly matters. Trump had four years to execute a withdrawal and declined to do so.

Here's a timeline showing how Biden inherited Trump's plan in 2020. Either of us might carp on details in this account or in others, but there's not much question that Biden picked up the deal Trump negotiated.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

Hmm nope, says everyone. Trump was the commander-in-chief from January 20, 2017 to January 20, 2021. If my math is correct, that's four years.

Why not? Why didn't Trump execute a withdrawal from Afghanistan himself in the four years that he had the opportunity to do so?

Neither of us knows what factors kept our forces in the country for the first three years of Trump's first term. It could be that the Taliban refused to talk to us until a certain point. You kind of need two to tango, y'know. Removing occupying troops is not a matter of waving your hands and making it so; there are all sorts of problems if you don't have a deal in place with the reigning powers. You don't have to like the Trump deal, you can criticize it all day long. What's foolish is acting as if Trump is responsible for any military deaths on his watch that occurred before such a deal could be made. But I do hold Biden responsible for deaths incurred if as I believe he and his regime hurried things and didn't adequately protect the withdrawing troops. If Trump has made similar mistakes in a withdrawal, he would deserve similar censure. But never for his not being to wave his hands and make the problem go away.

 

[Ouroboros]

It's not a meme. It's Elon Musk's blatant antisemitism being excused by the pro-Israel crowd because he simps for Israel.

Just another Mad Lib meme, and a desperate one to find Nazism in everyone who supports/supported Trump. You guys really don't know the difference anymore between actual evidence and bullshit implication.

 

[Ouroboros]

Define marginalizing.

Trying to force Jewish Americans out of the colleges they paid to attend is not only marginalizing, it's the return of the Jim Crow practices Mad Libs like to claim they abhor.

Not everyone views society as a hierarchy, where you have to punch down on others to earn your place.

That's exactly what the anti-Semitic activists are doing.

If you conflate Jewish identity with support for Israel, you're simply an antisemite.

And as for Socialists... well, first they (Nazis) came for the Socialists second. Jews were further down the list.

And the activists who have persecuted Jewish Americans for being Jewish are acting like Nazis. What's your point?

 

[Ouroboros]

It is if it continues. The war would inevitably end when the Sun explodes.

I'm sure that sounded good in your head

Because he was largely a warmongering establishment hack.



Trump

Trump what?

Scathing report on US withdrawal from Afghanistan blames Trump and Biden

State department’s findings also reflect poorly on Antony Blinken as it outlines the agency’s failure to expand crisis taskforce

www.theguardian.com

Timeline of U.S. Withdrawal from Afghanistan - FactCheck.org

We lay out many of the key diplomatic decisions, military actions, presidential pronouncements and expert assessments of the withdrawal agreement that ended the U.S. military's 20-year war in Afghanistan.

www.factcheck.org

Trump ordered rapid withdrawal from Afghanistan after election loss

The memo was among the latest revelations from the congressional committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol building.

www.militarytimes.com

The question remains, could Trump have executed the withdrawal better than Biden did? We will never know. But because we can never know that, it remains a fact that Biden was responsible for all screwups on his watch, just like Trump was when he was in office.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yeah Republicans created these wars, Iraq was all lies, and you still wanna know why the black guy didn't fix it.

Scratch a Mad Lib and you usually find a race-baiter.

 

[Ouroboros]

You gave shit and it read as same.

Your reading problem is not my problem.

 

[Ouroboros]

You had to get out in front of Biden apologizing because you knew I'd ask you where Trump's was. Sorry, I'm not in a cult. Between the two guys who called me shylocks, one apologized and one's base keeps telling me what Trump really meant.

It's not a coincidence that the responses match the individual base's attitudes.

Biden apologized to please his base, not because he was the least bit decent. Trump's lack of apology rather shows his courage in not humoring the sort of people who carp at words after a Prez has just made the State of Israel stronger, at least for the immediate future. And you still have not addressed the fact that neither Prez thought of the word as an ethnic insult.

 

[Gatsby]

Neither of us knows what factors kept our forces in the country for the first three years of Trump's first term. It could be that the Taliban refused to talk to us until a certain point. You kind of need two to tango, y'know.

No you really don't. You can just say "**** this, we're done here" and leave.

Removing occupying troops is not a matter of waving your hands and making it so; there are all sorts of problems if you don't have a deal in place with the reigning powers. You don't have to like the Trump deal, you can criticize it all day long.

The deal is "We're leaving Afghanistan now, you assholes figure out what comes next for your country." The idea that we need to say pretty please to the ****ing Taliban so that they give us...what, exactly?

What's foolish is acting as if Trump is responsible for any military deaths on his watch that occurred before such a deal could be made.

If Trump spent four years fighting a war and racking up deaths because he was waiting for the Taliban to come to the table and give him a Trump Casino in Kabul or whatever, that is absolutely on him.

If Trump has made similar mistakes in a withdrawal,

he would deserve similar censure. But never for his not being to wave his hands and make the problem go away.

Pretty easy to not get blamed for botching the withdrawal of troops, if you just don't ever withdraw the troops and let five times as many soldiers die.

 

[Ouroboros]

The jury is the defintion of critical. They are a deliberative body who's job it is to determine the facts. What I'm not accepting is your baseless questioning of their conclusion. You've given absolutely no reason to distrust the verdict.

You have no idea as to how much thought the jury put into their verdict, which was merely their EMOTIONAL response to a he said-she said. Your giving them the benefit of the doubt, given a long record of anti-Trumpism in New York, remains what is baseless.

Are you seeking validation for your feelings?

I'm laughing at your emotional regard for the probity of juries.

Yes. The creation of Israel was an example of colonialism. What does that fact have to do with antisemitism?

And you can only justify that false opinion with your usual subjective prejudices. Activists who persecute Jews on modern campuses are doing so with the same weak justification: that because they conflate all Jews with the existence of an Israeli state, they can persecute an ethnicity as much as they like. Nice to see you advocating the Mad Lib version of Jim Crow.

What? I don't even know what any of that means. Did you write that passage with Mad Libs?


Speaking of which I forgot how much I used to enjoy those as a kid. It does seem fitting that Mad Libs would be your jam seeing how fond you are of substituting your feelings for facts.

Your feelings remain irrelevant to my critique of Biden and the effect of his surrendering the US to bigoted activists.

How so? Explain that one to me. Id love to hear it in more detail.

Nope, as I've said before you have no interest in explanations, only in pretending to be a gadlfy. But you would have to show some actual moral compass to succeed at that.

No one's hand movements are going to change the fact that what you posted was an opinion piece about what the author feels contributed to anti Semitism. But there you go Mad Libing feelings for facts again.

It's only your opinion that it was an opinion piece, and your opinion is based in your disregard for any criticisms of your Mad Lib side.

at deflection? Name a policy and we can talk about it. I can't deflect from what you haven't present yet.

I gave you the policy, but I still can't do your reading for you. Maybe you need gadfly glasses.

 

[Ouroboros]

No you really don't. You can just say "**** this, we're done here" and leave.

Your ignorance of real world politics is a you thing.

The deal is "We're leaving Afghanistan now, you assholes figure out what comes next for your country." The idea that we need to say pretty please to the ****ing Taliban so that they give us...what, exactly?

That's not a deal of any kind, except in your imagination.

If Trump spent four years fighting a war and racking up deaths because he was waiting for the Taliban to come to the table and give him a Trump Casino in Kabul or whatever, that is absolutely on him.

View attachment 67579055

I love how you assume that the Taliban was blameless after I gave an example of how they could've mucked things up. Your fanaticism is showing. And if getting casinos was a consideration, where's the Obama Casino for his eight years? Or the Dubya Casino for his eight? You really are just picking crap out of the air.

Pretty easy to not get blamed for botching the withdrawal of troops, if you just don't ever withdraw the troops and let five times as many soldiers die.
View attachment 67579056

And you continue to advocate for ignorance of political realities while sobbing in your handkerchief for slain soldiers. But you're still the one trying to absolve Biden for the blunders he made carrying out Trump's plan, so your righteousness is clearly partisan despite your disclaimers.

 

[Gatsby]

Your ignorance of real world politics is a you thing.


That's not a deal of any kind, except in your imagination.

I love how you assume that the Taliban was blameless after I gave an example of how they could've mucked things up. Your fanaticism is showing. And if getting casinos was a consideration, where's the Obama Casino for his eight years? Or the Dubya Casino for his eight? You really are just picking crap out of the air.

And you continue to advocate for ignorance of political realities while sobbing in your handkerchief for slain soldiers. But you're still the one trying to absolve Biden for the blunders he made carrying out Trump's plan, so your righteousness is clearly partisan despite your disclaimers.

What is the deal you were waiting on for four years? What goodies did you expect the Taliban to hand to America in exchange for us leaving, and was it worth the cost in lives and money? Are there any other US foreign policy decisions you'd like to outsource to the Taliban?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Just another Mad Lib meme, and a desperate one to find Nazism in everyone who supports/supported Trump.

It doesn't take a lot of effort.

You guys really don't know the difference anymore between actual evidence and bullshit implication.

Elon Musk agrees with tweet accusing Jewish people of ‘hatred against whites’

Owner of X responds to antisemitic tweet calling it ‘the actual truth’ and criticizes Anti-Defamation League

www.theguardian.com

Liking Israel is the classic 'Get out of Antisemitism Free' card.

 

[The Brad Dad]

Biden apologized to please his base, not because he was the least bit decent.

Gee, I wonder why the Dem base demands an apology whereas Republicans seem to enjoy the anti semitism.

 

[The Brad Dad]

Scratch a Mad Lib and you usually find a race-baiter.

You just argued Trump was brave for being anti semitic.

 

[Master Debator]

You have no idea as to how much thought the jury put into their verdict, which was merely their EMOTIONAL response to a he said-she said. Your giving them the benefit of the doubt, given a long record of anti-Trumpism in New York, remains what is baseless.

That is correct. I don't know how much thought the jury put in to their verdict, but neither do you. That's why I'm agnostic on that matter. Its your distrust that is emotional. All I do know is that Trump is the adjudicated sexual predator. Thats called a fact. Maybe one day you'll stop confusing them for your feelings. Like what you feel about New Yorkers and their Trump sentiments.

How about some other facts ...


There are 17 million adults living in New York. 3.5 million of them voted for Trump. 4.5 million for Harris. Voter turnout was 70% but only 12 million of the 17 million adults in New York are registered to vote. That suggests more people in New York either support politically or don't care about Trump than who are against him, politically.

I'm laughing at your emotional regard for the probity of juries.

What you're not doing is proving any evidence whatsoever to discount their verdict.

And you can only justify that false opinion with your usual subjective prejudices.

I use facts. You use your feelings about how you imagine all of New York views Trump. Maybe one day you'll stop confusing the two.

Activists who persecute Jews on modern campuses are doing so with the same weak justification: that because they conflate all Jews with the existence of an Israeli state, they can persecute an ethnicity as much as they like. Nice to see you advocating the Mad Lib version of Jim Crow.

More frail pretending. You asked me if the creation of Israel was an example of colonialism and it is. That fact does not connect me in any way to other randos you have complaints about. Thats just you pretending as usual.

Your feelings remain irrelevant to my critique of Biden and the effect of his surrendering the US to bigoted activists.

You're the one making them relevant by responding to me laughing at you criticism of Biden as some rapist when Trump is the actual adjudicated sexual abuser. I can't force you to respond to my amusement but respond you do.

Nope, as I've said before you have no interest in explanations, only in pretending to be a gadlfy. But you would have to show some actual moral compass to succeed at that.

I just explained to you how Trump is the adjudicated sexual abuser and that what you feel about New York sentiments for Trump isnt supported by the facts. I can't help you with discerning your feelings from facts. That one youre just going to have to figure out on your own like a Big Boy.

It's only your opinion that it was an opinion piece, and your opinion is based in your disregard for any criticisms of your Mad Lib side.

No, its a fact that it was an opinion piece.

I gave you the policy, but I still can't do your reading for you. Maybe you need gadfly glasses.

Your feelings on DEI policies are feelings. Im not sure what you want me to comment on in regards to your feelings other than my continued amusement of them.