Should Confederate monuments be removed?

[jaypatriot]

Olddemo,
YOu got a tought road to hoe trying to convince others that slavery was the primary issue for the South seceding and going to war. It's a good thing the politicians in the North were able to convince young people that the Confederates wanted to destroy the Union and create a different country. If they tried to convince young Northern boys they were fighting to end slavery, hundreds of thousands would not go to war over that. And in the South, the idea of the North coming down to invade the South. Well, that was all it took to fire up tens of thousands of Southern boys to take up arms and defend their states against a Yankee invasion.
The ones who understood the South was dependent on slave labor to keep their economy going knew how to get military veterans excited about defending their honor and their culture - just like Robert E Lee knew what he was fighting for - and it wasn't about preserving the Union. It was about preserving Virginia.

Correction: I meant to write:
"You got a tough road to hoe trying to convince others that slavery was NOT the primary issue for the South seceding and going to war. "

 

[jaypatriot]

Wow. 13% of the population.


That is the argument for separate but equal.

Sit at the back of the bus

No blacks at the counter


I mean hey...they are only 13% of the population.


That is absolutely disgusting

vegas,
How about if you take the time to listen to Brandon Tatum and get a different perspective on systemic racism?
Of course, he is not someone the BLM people want to hear. The BLM zealots want to desperately believe they are under the oppression by white people when it fact they are mostly tools of black politicians living in blue states run by Democratic politicians. But the BLM crazies do not want to see that because their cause would be weakened if too many people started believing what Brandon Tatum is saying.

Give it a listen. You might learn something besides what the charlatan Al Sharpton is trying to preach.

YouTube

 

[Olddemocrat]

Thx anyway but your posts that slavery was a side issue have been tossed aside by the replies of more than one poster. I see no reason to take it any further myself. Your claim has zero merit and it never had any merit, never will have any credibility or belief. You need to stop reading the CSA history books backwards.

I simply maintain that saying the civil war was fought only over slavery is a gross oversimplification. It takes merely a cursory reading of history to see that.

 

[eman623]

If a majority of the people who live in the locale with the statue want it removed, then remove it. Otherwise, it should stay.

Either way, it's none of my concern and I barely care. It's just a statue.

I prefer to concentrate on actual issues involving real people, not images of people made of rock and bronze.

 

[vegas giants]

vegas,
How about if you take the time to listen to Brandon Tatum and get a different perspective on systemic racism?
Of course, he is not someone the BLM people want to hear. The BLM zealots want to desperately believe they are under the oppression by white people when it fact they are mostly tools of black politicians living in blue states run by Democratic politicians. But the BLM crazies do not want to see that because their cause would be weakened if too many people started believing what Brandon Tatum is saying.

Give it a listen. You might learn something besides what the charlatan Al Sharpton is trying to preach.

YouTube

Why bother? You said 13% of the population doesnt even matter

 

[Parrish]

I simply maintain that saying the civil war was fought only over slavery is a gross oversimplification. It takes merely a cursory reading of history to see that.

Cursory means "hasty and therefore not thorough or detailed.
"a cursory glance at the figures"
synonyms:
perfunctory · desultory · casual · superficial · token · uninterested · halfhearted · inattentive · unthinking · offhand · mechanical · automatic · routine · hasty · quick · hurried · rapid · brief · passing · fleeting · summary · sketchy · careless · slapdash

A more detailed study would explain the reason for the Civil War.

 

[JasperL]

Olddemo,
YOu got a tought road to hoe trying to convince others that slavery was [not] the primary issue for the South seceding and going to war. It's a good thing the politicians in the North were able to convince young people that the Confederates wanted to destroy the Union and create a different country.

True, that's a tough row to hoe because at that time the South was very willing to tell us they seceded over slavery, in many ways, many different voices, in very clear terms that didn't take an interpreter to understand. CSA leaders: Whey did we secede? Slavery!!

I'm confused about your point here. The South seceded....so....it didn't take a politician to explain that they wanted to create a different country. They did that.

If they tried to convince young Northern boys they were fighting to end slavery, hundreds of thousands would not go to war over that. And in the South, the idea of the North coming down to invade the South. Well, that was all it took to fire up tens of thousands of Southern boys to take up arms and defend their states against a Yankee invasion.

The ones who understood the South was dependent on slave labor to keep their economy going knew how to get military veterans excited about defending their honor and their culture - just like Robert E Lee knew what he was fighting for - and it wasn't about preserving the Union. It was about preserving Virginia.

Yeah, the south seceded over slavery, but Lincoln didn't go to war to preserve slavery, but the union, which was kind his core job as President of the United States.

 

[Tangmo]

If a majority of the people who live in the locale with the statue want it removed, then remove it. Otherwise, it should stay.

Either way, it's none of my concern and I barely care. It's just a statue.

I prefer to concentrate on actual issues involving real people, not images of people made of rock and bronze.

By that logic if a majority of the people who live in the locale want the 14th amendment nullified, then they can nullify it -- for themselves only of course. Same for the Constitution itself then -- which is what caused the civil war. After all, it's just a Constitution made of parchment and ink innit. So your bloated and vacuous post is absurd and assinine [sic.] when you say you "prefer to concentrate on actual issues involving real people, not images" [or parchment].

You are talking anarchy thx for nothing.

 

[Moot]

You can't allow that to happen for 2 very good reasons... First, let's say a state has a population of 5 million people and 50 protesters decide to take a statue down. You are allowing 0.001% of state residents to make a decision about what is displayed on public property, without considering what the other 99.999% of the state residents might want. That's not democracy, that's mob rule. Second and most obvious, destruction of public property is a crime. You simply can't allow people to destroy public and private property at will. They have no right or authority to do so.

People do not have the right, to not to be offended. What some find offensive, others might revere. You can not allow the "feelings" of a small group of people to dictate things for everyone. People belonging to the offended few, don't have the right to subvert the law or silence the voices and feelings of the many.


.

It was mob rule that put the statues up in the first place...blacks had no say in the matter.

 

[Tangmo]

You and the others are focusing on the end result(the civil war)and ignoring the events leading up to it. Slavery is to the civil war as right to life is to the whole panoply of women's reproductive health issues. Can you at least cede that?

Your oddball views on this are an abortion unsupported in the Constitution and by history.

I simply maintain that saying the civil war was fought only over slavery is a gross oversimplification. It takes merely a cursory reading of history to see that.

Dude, you've got to stop reading CSA memoirs backwards. CSA was a one party slaver state of racist traitors who, had they succeeded, would have been exactly that and worse into the 20th century and alongside the worst fellow fascists the world has known.

 

[Grim17]

It was mob rule that put the statues up in the first place...blacks had no say in the matter.

Really?

I had no idea that all those towns and cities forbid black people from voting, from starting a petition drive, or expressing their views in front of their local city council...

Someone needs to look into that because that sounds like textbook racism and oppression to me.

.

 

[Tangmo]

Olddemo,
YOu got a tought road to hoe trying to convince others that slavery was the primary issue for the South seceding and going to war. It's a good thing the politicians in the North were able to convince young people that the Confederates wanted to destroy the Union and create a different country. If they tried to convince young Northern boys they were fighting to end slavery, hundreds of thousands would not go to war over that. And in the South, the idea of the North coming down to invade the South. Well, that was all it took to fire up tens of thousands of Southern boys to take up arms and defend their states against a Yankee invasion.
The ones who understood the South was dependent on slave labor to keep their economy going knew how to get military veterans excited about defending their honor and their culture - just like Robert E Lee knew what he was fighting for - and it wasn't about preserving the Union. It was about preserving Virginia.

Once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation the Union Armies fought to end slavery. Immediately after the Union victory the 13th Amendment did exactly that complemented by the 14th A.

Robert E. Lee was a fanatical foil of John Brown and should have been hanged in the same spot where Brown was hanged. Lee didn't know right from wrong either. If Lee did perchance know right from wrong he should have been hanged twice.

 

[eman623]

By that logic if a majority of the people who live in the locale want the 14th amendment nullified, then they can nullify it -- for themselves only of course. Same for the Constitution itself then -- which is what caused the civil war. After all, it's just a Constitution made of parchment and ink innit. So your bloated and vacuous post is absurd and assinine [sic.] when you say you "prefer to concentrate on actual issues involving real people, not images" [or parchment].

You are talking anarchy thx for nothing.

Strawman argument. You could have just asked me what I thought before erecting a faulty hypothesis and then attacking it.

My position is that a statue is not the same thing as the fundamental law of this country.

What is the law of the land is freedom of speech, which includes the freedom to erect statues that some might find offensive.

 

[Moot]

Really?

I had no idea that all those towns and cities forbid black people from voting, from starting a petition drive, or expressing their views in front of their local city council...

Someone needs to look into that because that sounds like textbook racism and oppression to me.

.

Well, maybe you should look into Jim Crowe....that way you won't have to make such stupid posts.

 

[Tangmo]

Strawman argument. You could have just asked me what I thought before erecting a faulty hypothesis and then attacking it.

My position is that a statue is not the same thing as the fundamental law of this country.

What is the law of the land is freedom of speech, which includes the freedom to erect statues that some might find offensive.

I responded to your post because you don't know a hypothesis from a hippopotamus.

Your statement statues need to be left to the local community is absurd anarchy. It ignores the Constitution to include the Bill of Rights and the Amendments. It dismissed and excludes national public policy based in the Constitution and its equal protection of the laws and equal justice under law. You don't see that and so be it.

 

[jaypatriot]

Why bother? You said 13% of the population doesnt even matter

A poor excuse for you to ignore what really should be happening the black community.
I never said 13% percent of the population doesn't matter.
I inferred that the country should not succumb to the terrifying will of 13% percent of the population if that population is going to terrorize the remaining 87% by threatening to burn down buildings and loot stores if they don't get their way.

 

[jaypatriot]

Once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation the Union Armies fought to end slavery. Immediately after the Union victory the 13th Amendment did exactly that complemented by the 14th A.

Robert E. Lee was a fanatical foil of John Brown and should have been hanged in the same spot where Brown was hanged. Lee didn't know right from wrong either. If Lee did perchance know right from wrong he should have been hanged twice.

You do know that Robert E Lee was the Union officer that captured John Brown at Harper's Ferry so he could be hung.
He was a hero then in 1859 and wasn't a traitor until 1861.
If you saw the 1940 movie "Santa Fe Trail" you would know that.

 

[Tangmo]

You do know that Robert E Lee was the Union officer that captured John Brown at Harper's Ferry so he could be hung.
He was a hero then in 1859 and wasn't a traitor until 1861.
If you saw the 1940 movie "Santa Fe Trail" you would know that.

Everybody here saw the movie so stop being a numbnuts. Ten times have seen the movie given it's a big oldie but goodie one. They Died With Their Boots On is yet another innit. Maybe you might put in for a degree in this stuff from a Hollywood diploma mill or some such.

Others didn't need to see the movie to know the facts and the history of it: Harper's Ferry, John Brown, Robert E. Lee. The real history goes beyond Errol Flynn and Ronald Reagan among others but especially Raymond Masse Him Self.

Which is why I believe the traitor Robert E. Lee deserved to be hanged on the same spot as your guy Raymond Masse, er, John Brown, was hanged, fellow murderers that they are. Your problem dude is you presume too much of yourself while possessing too little to do anything of the sort.

 

[Grim17]

Well, maybe you should look into Jim Crowe....that way you won't have to make such stupid posts.

Are you saying Jim Crowe laws are still in effect in all those cities, and that's what preventing black people from voting, from starting a petition drive, or expressing their views in front of their local city council?

This is 2020, not 1952... There are right ways, legal ways, in which people of all races can address grievances, and forming a mob and making decisions for all the people of a city or state isn't one of those ways. I think you already know what's going on is wrong, but just as millions of others on the left who also know, you are willing to go along with this abhorrent, violent, lawless behavior because your priorities are no longer aligned with the nation as a whole, but with the progressive political movement. It's sad that it's come to this.

.

 

[Moot]

Are you saying Jim Crowe laws are still in effect in all those cities, and that's what preventing black people from voting, from starting a petition drive, or expressing their views in front of their local city council?

This is 2020, not 1952... There are right ways, legal ways, in which people of all races can address grievances, and forming a mob and making decisions for all the people of a city or state isn't one of those ways. I think you already know what's going on is wrong, but just as millions of others on the left who also know, you are willing to go along with this abhorrent, violent, lawless behavior because your priorities are no longer aligned with the nation as a whole, but with the progressive political movement. It's sad that it's come to this.

.

Nope, your stupid strawman has nothing to do with what I said. It's sad that you have lie like that.

 

[Olddemocrat]

[/B]

Cursory means "hasty and therefore not thorough or detailed.
"a cursory glance at the figures"
synonyms:
perfunctory · desultory · casual · superficial · token · uninterested · halfhearted · inattentive · unthinking · offhand · mechanical · automatic · routine · hasty · quick · hurried · rapid · brief · passing · fleeting · summary · sketchy · careless · slapdash

A more detailed study would explain the reason for the Civil War.

And yet it took only five min. to find several roots dating back to the seventeen eighties, thus cursory as in quick and off hand. In other words, incredibly fast and easy and supporting my contention that the civil war was not JUST about slavery. But if that is all you wish to focus on you're missing a lot of the story.

 

[Tangmo]

R.E. Lee was a career Engineer not an officer of infantry (or of cavalry or of artillery). Lee the CSA general officer had to have Napoleon translated to him across the fields by Gen. Beauregard from Louisiana who was fluent in French (although not Parisian French eh).

Swiss Maj.Gen. Antoine-Henri Jomini who accompanied Napoleon throughout is the definitive documenting authority on Napoleon whose extensive writings in French were finally translated for the West Point curriculum just before the civil war by the brainy Gen. Halleck who became Army chief of staff when Grant became general in chief in the field. Halleck was a logistics officer who supplied Grant and Sherman
copiously, in time and brilliantly.

Gen. McClellan who was fluent in French also translated Jomini for Union commanders and their officers in the field given the paucity of Napoleonic studies at West Point until after the war. This is of vital importance because Napoleon is the undisputed architect of modern war, having created the mobile Army Corps of divisions with a staff of specialists that both operated independently to effect and joined strategically into an Army Group of corps that -- with his innovative massed and lighter mobile artillery -- decimated his opposing armies by immense firepower. Sherman also applied Napoleon -- each drawing on Caesar -- in his march to the sea living off the land rather than haul and protect heavy and slow supply columns.

Lee the career Engineer got the nick "King of Spades" instead for the ditches and ramparts he dug out and heaped up for almost 20 years before being given command of the CSA Army of Northern Virginia which he got decimated at Gettysburg, after which Lee became general in chief of all CSA Armies that proceeded to lose the war completely. As Grant said after having led cavalry charges eagerly in the Mexican American War, Lee in the civil war was an "average general" who "never strayed far from his defensive ramparts." Methinks Grant was being kind and generous besides. I'd always thought Napoleon would have made Lee who cited God all day and night a Chaplain instead.

 

[vegas giants]

A poor excuse for you to ignore what really should be happening the black community.
I never said 13% percent of the population doesn't matter.
I inferred that the country should not succumb to the terrifying will of 13% percent of the population if that population is going to terrorize the remaining 87% by threatening to burn down buildings and loot stores if they don't get their way.

You think 13% of the population is looting buildings.


You have problems with basic math

 

[Moderate Right]

Should Confederate monuments be removed?



Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials - Wikipedia

I wonder what the left thinks about confederate statues that weren't put up during Jim Crow. Somehow the left seem to use that as a scapegoat. My feeling is that the fate of statues should be determined by the local where they are located. I would disagree with them about taking them down but it that is what they decide then that is their decision. Thugs and vanalizers shouldn't be determining statue's fates. They should have cameras and maybe even police protection and perpetrators should be prosecuted.

 

[Rumpelstil]

Lee the career Engineer got the nick "King of Spades" instead for the ditches and ramparts he dug out and heaped up for almost 20 years before being given command of the CSA Army of Northern Virginia which he got decimated at Gettysburg, after which Lee became general in chief of all CSA Armies that proceeded to lose the war completely. As Grant said after having led cavalry charges eagerly in the Mexican American War, Lee in the civil war was an "average general" who "never strayed far from his defensive ramparts." Methinks Grant was being kind and generous besides. I'd always thought Napoleon would have made Lee who cited God all day and night a Chaplain instead.

So Lee was mor a kind of a grave digger?