yes or no?
I say definately not. It is a form of speech. So long as it is done with proper permits, etc. I mean, you can't just walk out on Main street with such a demonstration. That's just disruptive.
My favorite argument against flag-burning legislation is this: In the legislation, they always allow the boyscouts to burn the flag when it is torn or tattered as the proper disposal of the flag.
So boyscouts can do it. But I can't do it in my own home if I'm angry at the US (though note - I would be really angry if I saw someone doing this - I'm very patriotic). So what's the difference between the boyscouts and what I do? Answer: What we are thinking - which is our reason for doing it. So you're not making it illegal to burn a flag - you're making it illegal to think certain thoughts while burning a flag. The government... trying to control what we think. Ouch.
On the greater scale - The US Flag represents America -which represents all of our individual freedoms. How hypocritcal would it be to refuse a freedom (of speech) in order to protect the symbol of such a freedom? (and likewise, how hypocritical would it be to burn such a symbol?) But let the individual choose to be hypocritical - that's their freedom to do so - don't put it in legislation for goodness sake!
It seems obvious to me and so I don't understand what the arguments are for such legislation - I figure this would be the best place to get opposing views
It should be legal except when dangerous (so legal in every circumstance that it would be legal to burn a similarly-sized tablecloth). You have the right to be an asshole. There are only a couple of limitations to free speech (slander, inciting violence, putting people in immenent danger), and that's the way it should be.
Second, I absolutely like the theory of the banning of flag burning. If you have such disdain for the ideals of the country that you destroy the flag that is its symbol and is the national representation of those ideals then frankly I don't want you in the country, and I find it dispicable that you're taking advantage of the very things that flag stands for in your destruction of it in your immature and ignorant thought of using it to "protest".
Agreed.It's a piece of fabric. Why in the world shouldn't it be legal to burn a piece of fabric?
First, your boyscout argument is terrible and full of holes. There's an extremely easy answer for it. In one case you are properly disposing of a national symbol, as the only proper way by law to dispose of an American Flag is through burning it. In the other fashion you are not performing the action to dispose, but to dessecrate, as you're burning the flag in protest of what it represents which is the country. Essentially a law against flag burning would be a law against dessecration of the flag, essentially the purpose of said burning rather than the act.
Second, I absolutely like the theory of the banning of flag burning. If you have such disdain for the ideals of the country that you destroy the flag that is its symbol and is the national representation of those ideals then frankly I don't want you in the country, and I find it dispicable that you're taking advantage of the very things that flag stands for in your destruction of it in your immature and ignorant thought of using it to "protest".
Third, while I like the theory, in practice it just shouldn't and can't happen. I may think you doing such is the scum of the earth, one of the most assholish things to do, and an action that will make me forever and a day look at someone as anything but America regardless of what their citizenship says. I may think you are a flaming (no pun intended) hypocrite, a complete and utter jackass, and an immature mental child whose likely doing something to be a "rebel" and thinks is cool without realizing how asinine and juvinile it is let alone how illogical. However, despite all those things, none of that means it SHOULD be illegal nor that it should be prevented despite the constitutions protection against political speech of which it would be.
So utlimately while I'd love for it to be illegal, it shouldn't be and I'd actually vote against making it illegal, because the principles of the constitution and what the flag stands for is more important than keeping douchy idiots who are ignorant of their own hypocrisy from burning it. However I do think its fine if such people are scorned, ostracized, and viewed as anything but American by the individuals of this country imho.
I love your passion. And I agree 100% with your second and third paragraph. If I ever know of a person who actually burns a flag, I think I may go ape-**** on them. The flag means a lot to me. Which is why I want to protect what it stands for.
What's the difference in the physical activity between a bar fight and a fight in a ring? In one case yo'ure punching a guy, in another you're punching a guy.
A fight in a ring is done under contact between two consenting adults. The observers are ones that also consent to viewing such violence. Everyone consents. A public fight is one in which is not planned and so it causes significant disruption to the public. Whereas a legal flagburning, with the proper permits, etc. is planned in
advanced and those that attend will do so knowing the 'violence' they are about to see.
What's the difference in the physical activity of making yourself naked in your house and making yourself naked in public? In one case you're taking clothes off, in another you're taking clothes off.
What's the difference in the physical activity of saying "I'm going to kill the President" as part of a joke and saying "I'm going to kill the President" out front of the white house? In one case you're saying words, in another case you're saying words.
They've actually taken this to court before I believe. One is that it is actually a possible threat. You may actually have the means of killing the president if you are that close and so you actually pose a threat. The same words in Kentucky is not a realistic threat.
We have a number of laws where the same physical action in general occurs but the law views it differently. In regards to flags and the disposing of them the flag code states "The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."
That's a great code. I was a boyscout. I know the code. the argument is whether or not it should be a law.
Now, assuming we're being realistic here, we'd need to look at what the PURPOSE behind no flag burning laws is? Stopping desecration of the flag. Additionally, most of the time I've heard these laws bandied about it seems to be that burning is focused on but in general desecration is the focus. But even just with burning, taking that into account, I would imagine such a law would not simply be "Its illegal to burn the flag" but most likely "illegal to burn the flag in an UNdignified manner", essentiallly setting it apart from the flag code statements on disposal.
Burning the emblem of the United States in a dignified manner is disposing of it. Burning it while unfurled, or tossing it onto the ground, or while screaming out hateful rhetoric, or while marching in a protest, is not dignified disposal.
Your issue seems to be taking something that is utlimately going to be a law, which means undoubtably its not going to be 5 words long of "burning the flag is illegal", and arguing against it based on the bare bones generalized statement people make in support of the more specific legislation. One must take into account the intent behind the worlds and the common sense notion that legislation would be written and said legislation would likely detail the way in which it is made illegal.
Now you could say "Dignified" is rather objective. Yes. So is disorderly, obscene, and other such terms.
I've always heard the argument in a general means of laws against desecration of the flag, with "burning" the flag always being the most contenuous and the most spoken about or the defacto reference simply because its the most common.
I of course know the law will be more than five words. But goodness, if I posted one of the actual proposed legislative bills here, no one would respond. This argument is one of philosophy behind such a bill. So I apologize for not arguing more specific points, but that was not my intent in creating this poll.
yes or no?
I say definately not. It is a form of speech. So long as it is done with proper permits, etc. I mean, you can't just walk out on Main street with such a demonstration. That's just disruptive.
My favorite argument against flag-burning legislation is this: In the legislation, they always allow the boyscouts to burn the flag when it is torn or tattered as the proper disposal of the flag.
So boyscouts can do it. But I can't do it in my own home if I'm angry at the US (though note - I would be really angry if I saw someone doing this - I'm very patriotic). So what's the difference between the boyscouts and what I do? Answer: What we are thinking - which is our reason for doing it. So you're not making it illegal to burn a flag - you're making it illegal to think certain thoughts while burning a flag. The government... trying to control what we think. Ouch.
On the greater scale - The US Flag represents America -which represents all of our individual freedoms. How hypocritcal would it be to refuse a freedom (of speech) in order to protect the symbol of such a freedom? (and likewise, how hypocritical would it be to burn such a symbol?) But let the individual choose to be hypocritical - that's their freedom to do so - don't put it in legislation for goodness sake!
It seems obvious to me and so I don't understand what the arguments are for such legislation - I figure this would be the best place to get opposing views
First, your boyscout argument is terrible and full of holes.
If you have such disdain for the ideals of the country that you destroy the flag that is its symbol and is the national representation of those ideals then frankly I don't want you in the country, and I find it dispicable that you're taking advantage of the very things that flag stands for in your destruction of it in your immature and ignorant thought of using it to "protest".
I may think you doing such is the scum of the earth, one of the most assholish things to do, and an action that will make me forever and a day look at someone as anything but America regardless of what their citizenship says. I may think you are a flaming (no pun intended) hypocrite, a complete and utter jackass, and an immature mental child whose likely doing something to be a "rebel" and thinks is cool without realizing how asinine and juvinile it is let alone how illogical.
So utlimately while I'd love for it to be illegal, it shouldn't be and I'd actually vote against making it illegal, because the principles of the constitution and what the flag stands for is more important than keeping douchy idiots who are ignorant of their own hypocrisy from burning it. However I do think its fine if such people are scorned, ostracized, and viewed as anything but American by the individuals of this country imho.
I'm not American, but I don't like it when people burn their countries' flags. A flag is a symbol of a lot more than just the country's government. It's a symbol of the country as a whole. The culture, tradition, way of life, history and people that made it what it is, and yes, to some degree, the current administration in power. Burning flags to protest your own government is kind of self-destructive. You're burning a symbol that represents yourself along with a zillion other little things that makes your country what it is. The government is only one part of that whole.
I can understand people burning flags from countries they deeply disapprove of. Sometimes I get this weird urge to burn Saudi flags by the dozen. But I would never burn my country's own flag. If it came to that point, I'd think it's time to leave and find myself another country.
That said, regardless of how destructive and counter-productive I think it is, I absolutely think that it should be legal. Freedom of expression is more important to me than ideals and symbols.
That's what is so beautiful about the American flag. If they outlawed burning it, it would undermine what it stands for. That would be a thousand times worse than burning it.
Has anyone ever burned a Swiss flag? :lol:
Of course! It is the same as betraying the nation that gives you education, food, home, light and that protects your life.
LOL
Not that I'm aware, no, we're a pretty satisfied bunch. :lol:
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