Should Affirmative Action end?

[ttwtt78640]

But what about systemic racism? Until a person of color or other minority can become a doctor, an engineer, a CEO, a member of congress, or a VP, or even POTUS, there will always be systemic racism. Until the day we finally have a black POTUS, we need all the affirmative action we can muster.

Nope, having 1 black POTUS out of 46 means we need to have at least 6 more (in a row?) to have had at least 13% of those serving as POTUS being black.

 

[reinaert]

Not in a country that lets the Old Confederate states do their damnedest to **** with the basic liberties and immunities of minorities.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Affirmative Action was supposed to be a temporary measure until the opportunity gap closed. It was never supposed to drag on this long, but people in power have not done enough to close that opportunity gap.

If by people in power, you mean the government. It's not government's responsibility to close opportunity gaps other then making discrimination illegal.

 

[reinaert]

If by people in power, you mean the government. It's not government's responsibility to close opportunity gaps other then making discrimination illegal.

Which is why there are no public roads, ports, schools, medicine, science or rural internet access programs.

 

[ttwtt78640]

If by people in power, you mean the government. It's not government's responsibility to close opportunity gaps other then making discrimination illegal.

Having laws is only part of the government solution - enforcing those laws is the other half.

 

[noonereal]

Meh. If you can’t define your terms, there’s not much to discuss. Are you the guy that always complains about having to hire incompetent black peoples over super-competent white people? Apology in advance if that’s not you.

You have me mistaken for someone else.
I am the guy who spent 40 years supporting programs such as AA and was tasked with seeking out women and black before white males. Which I wholly supported in practice and philosophy.

As to you cheap demand of a definition, it is rather strange everyone else knows what it means. It is also strange that you refuse to use Google for your edification.

 

[reflechissez]

You have me mistaken for someone else.
I am the guy who spent 40 years supporting programs such as AA and was tasked with seeking out women and black before white males. Which I wholly supported in practice and philosophy.

As to you cheap demand of a definition, it is rather strange everyone else knows what it means. It is also strange that you refuse to use Google for your edification.

Nah. You're the guy I'm talking about.

Start a thread which contains a phrase that is replete with loaded interpretations; when asked for the OP's definition, he deflects to "google." For some reason, he is avoiding the question. I wonder why.

 

[noonereal]

Nah. You're the guy I'm talking about.

Start a thread which contains a phrase that is replete with loaded interpretations; when asked for the OP's definition, he deflects to "google." For some reason, he is avoiding the question. I wonder why.

yeah, I know to regards your posts as gutter slop now

peace and all the best

 

[reflechissez]

yeah, I know to regards your posts as gutter slop now

peace and all the best

Sure, sport. You are too easily-triggered. Anonymous political forums may not be appropriate for you.

Love and happiness.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Should Affirmative Action end?

The US is a complex country with one of the most horrible and longest lasting records for how it treated ex slaves and ethnic minorities. Yet it is also a country where African Americans could rise to the Presidency or leading its military into major wars. The UK and much of Europe by contrast didn't just abolish slavery but became places where races could mix without the overt racism and Jim Crow type culture that held former slaves back or treated them as second class citizens with lesser quality rights.

There are plenty of stories of African Americans coming to Europe and being treated as equals or breaking into major areas of the creative industries (for example) but there hasn't been until recently a non-white leader of a European nation, African and mixed dependents of ethnic minorities couldn't rise up in the ranks of the military. I originally started training to be an officer in the UK army but at one competition weekend, a couple of guards on duty were curious about my badge and when I explained I was a junior training officer they told me white soldiers would never follow a black officer into battle.

I don't think there are easy answers but I know the barriers everywhere are often just hidden under a more sophisticated veneer than the plain obvious hostility African Americans used to face in the pre '60's.

 

[noonereal]

The US is a complex country with one of the most horrible and longest lasting records for how it treated ex slaves and ethnic minorities. Yet it is also a country where African Americans could rise to the Presidency or leading its military into major wars. The UK and much of Europe by contrast didn't just abolish slavery but became places where races could mix without the overt racism and Jim Crow type culture that held former slaves back or treated them as second class citizens with lesser quality rights.

There are plenty of stories of African Americans coming to Europe and being treated as equals or breaking into major areas of the creative industries (for example) but there hasn't been until recently a non-white leader of a European nation, African and mixed dependents of ethnic minorities couldn't rise up in the ranks of the military. I originally started training to be an officer in the UK army but at one competition weekend, a couple of guards on duty were curious about my badge and when I explained I was a junior training officer they told me white soldiers would never follow a black officer into battle.

I don't think there are easy answers but I know the barriers everywhere are often just hidden under a more sophisticated veneer than the plain obvious hostility African Americans used to face in the pre '60's.

I'd like to also point out something else. Racist in the blue states was never and still is not anything like the south or red states.
This may well need a more tailored regional approach.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Should Affirmative Action end?

I'm not really sure.
I'd like to see some actual data on approximately how many people are hired by employers and/or admitted to college each year that are AA hires/admissions, if entrance criteria was eased to meet AA, and if other qualified applicants, maybe even more qualified applicants, were being disenfranchised and if so how many of those?

I have a vague idea of what AA is and what its supposed to do, but no real idea of its exact magnitude and effectiveness in practice.
So therefore its difficult for me to say if it should stay or go.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Which is why there are no public roads, ports, schools, medicine, science or rural internet access programs.

?????

 

[JMR]

How do you know these things?

Rightful? You think a kid who brings in multimillions of dollars to a school is not "rightfully" admitted because ONLY grades count?
Isnt college about preparing kids for life? If a kid is an athlete and wishes to pursue sport after college they should only be considered on grades?
I think the mindset exemplified in this post is limited. We are brought up to think one way and God forbid we look at things from a differing perspective.


What super qualified kids were denied before affirmative action? You mean legacy acceptances pushing those with better grades (not necessarily better qualified) from receiving acceptance letters?

Grades do not make one more qualified than another. They are but one indicator. This entire mindset needs to change.

I know these things because I have dealt with and know college admission counselors. They are rather honest about the admissions goals their college is looking to achieve.

I explained before that a) I was responding to another poster (post # 2) who thought affirmative action was stealing the place of "rightful" applicants. and b) that I see little difference between awarding a place to an athlete than to a first generation college attendee.... and c) I fully support colleges DIVERSIFYING their student body by awarding places to people of different talents...which includes athletes. The fact that colleges use athletes to increase their profits is another discussion. There are also many athletes awarded spots that play on teams that don't earn the university a dime. My whole argument has been that there are many different things to be considered OTHER than grades in admissions. I suggest you go back and try to follow what I have been posting, because you've got it completely upside down.

You have yet to define a "super qualified kid". If you are speaking about grades, every athlete admitted without top grades has denied your super qualified kid a place. I have stated that I find there to be many qualifications, other than grades to be considered.

 

[noonereal]

Super qualified, rightful place were your words

I beat that down.

You still did not say how you knew, specifically, in reference to your claims of male preference for your kid and the other claim?

 

[JMR]

Super qualified, rightful place were your words

I beat that down.

You still did not say how you knew, specifically, in reference to your claims of male preference for your kid and the other claim?

In your imagination you beat that down. You are demonstrating an inability to read....and don't recognize that we actually agree on most points here.

Could I be clearer....I have dealt with and enjoy the company of college admissions counselors, who share the admissions goals of their respective colleges. In the case of my son, his college was looking to attain 50-50 male-female enrollment....not a secret to anyone. I could have mentioned that in my time (long ago) a male high school classmate was admitted to a college to which a much more "grade and test score qualified" female was wait listed. None of this is new. It's just now the recipients of such boosts are reviled because they are race based.

 

[noonereal]

In your imagination you beat that down. You are demonstrating an inability to read....and don't recognize that we actually agree on most points here.

Could I be clearer....I have dealt with and enjoy the company of college admissions counselors, who share the admissions goals of their respective colleges. In the case of my son, his college was looking to attain 50-50 male-female enrollment....not a secret to anyone. I could have mentioned that in my time (long ago) a male high school classmate was admitted to a college to which a much more "grade and test score qualified" female was wait listed. None of this is new. It's just now the recipients of such boosts are reviled because they are race based.

You are drawing conclusions without facts.
How do you know it was her sex that put her on the waiting list? Were you tasked with this decision at the university?

 

[JMR]

You are drawing conclusions without facts.
How do you know it was her sex that put her on the waiting list? Were you tasked with this decision at the university?

You need the last word here? I'm fine with that, but I will leave you with a little reading material.

Seeking gender balance, selective colleges are giving men an advantage in admission

As more women than men continue to apply to colleges, it’s gotten easier for male applicants at some private colleges to get in — and harder for female applicants. Despite this, women make up the majority of students on U.S. college campuses

hechingerreport.org

Education researchers reveal why far more girls apply to college than boys: Schools prioritize organization and rule-following

Some colleges accept a higher share of their male applicants than female applicants to keep the student body ratio even, since more girls apply.

www.businessinsider.com

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-11-02/how-gender-influences-college-admissions

You are defending an imaginary position. Colleges have always sought to create their own vision of the perfect class of students.
They have done this by favoring one aspect or another of their applicants for a long time.

 

[noonereal]

You need the last word here? I'm fine with that, but I will leave you with a little reading material.

Seeking gender balance, selective colleges are giving men an advantage in admission

As more women than men continue to apply to colleges, it’s gotten easier for male applicants at some private colleges to get in — and harder for female applicants. Despite this, women make up the majority of students on U.S. college campuses

hechingerreport.org

Education researchers reveal why far more girls apply to college than boys: Schools prioritize organization and rule-following

Some colleges accept a higher share of their male applicants than female applicants to keep the student body ratio even, since more girls apply.

www.businessinsider.com

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-11-02/how-gender-influences-college-admissions

You are defending an imaginary position. Colleges have always sought to create their own vision of the perfect class of students.
They have done this by favoring one aspect or another of their applicants for a long time.

I simply pushed you on what was an unsupportable claim by you

In maco, yes we agree on the subject at hand.

 

[JMR]

I simply pushed you on what was an unsupportable claim by you

I maco, yes we agree on the subject at hand.

which claim is unsupportable?

You answered in one minute, obvious not reading any links

 

[HIP56948]

Nothing has really changed since Affirmative Action was created. We still have sons-a-bitches to stir the pot.

 

[noonereal]

which claim is unsupportable?

You answered in one minute, obvious not reading any links

Read the exchange.

 

[JMR]

Read the exchange.

Here ya go....

Google Search

www.google.com

 

[noonereal]

Here ya go....

Google Search

www.google.com

Wtf?

You don't know what your fallacy was? What i called you out on?

This is a cheap way to try to claim victory when you were shut down..

 

[JMR]

Wtf?

You don't know what your fallacy was? What i called you out on?

This is a cheap way to try to claim victory when you were shut down..

blah blah....You up to lesson 3?