Shipbuilder Warns of Layoffs if Biden Doesn’t Buy More Destroyers

[BlueTex]

Nope, national defense - democracy in action.

Building unneeded ships is "democracy in action"?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

You don't think the AEGIS system and EW systems Taiwan has can tell the difference between drones and anti-ship missiles?

The drone would be an actual fighter in the Chinese air force, one that could be armed with anti ship missiles. In other words an actual threat that needs to be taken down, heck it could be programmed to fire missiles then fly into the ships

These are the oldest jets in the Chinese military based of the Mig 21 I believe, each likely worth less than 3 million, an aegis destroyer likely 500 million. The US has approx 68, Taiwan would be lucky to afford 10, most likely 5. It would not be hard for China to take out 5 aegis destroyers

 

[Aunt Antifa]

This must be that fiscal responsibility thing I've heard so much about.

And takin’ it to the military industrial complex.

 

[Questerr]

The drone would be an actual fighter in the Chinese air force, one that could be armed with anti ship missiles. In other words an actual threat that needs to be taken down, heck it could be programmed to fire missiles then fly into the ships

These are the oldest jets in the Chinese military based of the Mig 21 I believe, each likely worth less than 3 million, an aegis destroyer likely 500 million. The US has approx 68, Taiwan would be lucky to afford 10, most likely 5. It would not be hard for China to take out 5 aegis destroyers

Yeah, no such programming exists for drones. They won't be taking any evasive maneuvers, they'll be flying in mostly straight lines, and their EW signature will be identical to a drone's. So why would the Taiwanese waste missiles on them when they can shoot them down with AAA?

 

[Bullseye]

Building unneeded ships is "democracy in action"?

Who said they were unneeded?

 

[BlueTex]

Who said they were unneeded?

The Navy...

 

[Peter]

China has a missile system that would sink them all in a matter of hours at most.

Do you really think that the navies of NATO haven't had that exact same thought?

Why would they send ships loaded with thousands of sailors into an area if they think they'll be sunk in a few hours? Ships do have defences and the US or UK isn't going to put hardware worth well over $1B a piece into a situation where they can't defend themselves as that would be political suicide.

Imagine the political fallout from a single US carrier being sunk.

 

[MaryP]

Could BIW build ships that aren't military? Like cargo ships?

 

[Dayton3]

Could BIW build ships that aren't military? Like cargo ships?

Different technology and building techniques.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Do you really think that the navies of NATO haven't had that exact same thought?

Why would they send ships loaded with thousands of sailors into an area if they think they'll be sunk in a few hours? Ships do have defences and the US or UK isn't going to put hardware worth well over $1B a piece into a situation where they can't defend themselves as that would be political suicide.

Imagine the political fallout from a single US carrier being sunk.

Much of our defense spending is not dictated by military need, but rather by jobs in congressional districts. China doesn't face that same problem.

The US has been getting 'its ass handed to it' in war games simulating fights against Russia and China

In war games simulating a high-end fight against Russia or China, the US apparently keeps getting destroyed, experienced war-gamers warn.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Dayton3]

Much of our defense spending is not dictated by military need, but rather by jobs in congressional districts. China doesn't face that same problem.

The US has been getting 'its ass handed to it' in war games simulating fights against Russia and China

In war games simulating a high-end fight against Russia or China, the US apparently keeps getting destroyed, experienced war-gamers warn.

www.businessinsider.com

The U.S. does need more surface warships though. That is pretty much a given.

 

[Roger Duke]

Biden wil use money on destroyers. If the Squad keeps criticizing him he'll give in to them and send destroyers to knock down the southern border wall. Most folks call them bulldozers.

 

[BlueTex]

The U.S. does need more surface warships though. That is pretty much a given.

Why do you suppose the Navy disagrees with this assessment?

 

[Dayton3]

Why do you suppose the Navy disagrees with this assessment?

The Navy's biggest worries are insufficient personnel. So they worry they won't have enough people to man more ships.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Nothing insane about it. We most certainly do have satellite weapons pointed both at the earth and away from it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

China has a missile system that would sink them all in a matter of hours at most.

No, they do not.

And yes, I know all about the DF-21D. Been watching it's development for over a decade now actually.

It is a fantasy, a chimera. Moonbeams and sealing wax, and it is a complete joke and distraction.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Could BIW build ships that aren't military? Like cargo ships?

Yes, and already discussed in another thread.

The US builds almost no ships. The shipping companies all go overseas now, because they are cheaper.

Last year, over 54 million tons of cargo ships were built worldwide. The US built 74,000 tons.

Why do you think China has been the largest purchaser of decommissioned US Navy ships for the past decade? They haul them over there, scrap them, then reuse the steel to build ships for other countries.

However, that is also not an infinite supply, and the value of scrapping ships has actually increased lately because the supply is drying up, and China is getting desperate for more ships to scrap to make into ships to sell.

If all of NATO and the US allies stopped sending their old warships to China for scrapping, wanna bet they are going to run out of raw materials in just a few years? They are already believed to be behind many of the WWII era wrecks being destroyed to salvage their steel.

 

[Questerr]

The Navy's biggest worries are insufficient personnel. So they worry they won't have enough people to man more ships.

Which in your expertise from decades of sitting on your couch rather than serving is a worry that doesn’t matter, right?

 

[MaryP]

Yes, and already discussed in another thread.

The US builds almost no ships. The shipping companies all go overseas now, because they are cheaper.

Last year, over 54 million tons of cargo ships were built worldwide. The US built 74,000 tons.

Why do you think China has been the largest purchaser of decommissioned US Navy ships for the past decade? They haul them over there, scrap them, then reuse the steel to build ships for other countries.

However, that is also not an infinite supply, and the value of scrapping ships has actually increased lately because the supply is drying up, and China is getting desperate for more ships to scrap to make into ships to sell.

If all of NATO and the US allies stopped sending their old warships to China for scrapping, wanna bet they are going to run out of raw materials in just a few years? They are already believed to be behind many of the WWII era wrecks being destroyed to salvage their steel.

Interesting!

 

[Dayton3]

Which in your expertise from decades of sitting on your couch rather than serving is a worry that doesn’t matter, right?

Why do you love to bring up that I've never served in the military? I never claimed to have served in the military nor to have any special expertise in the military.

Does it really bother you that much that a person can learn about a subject by studying it?

I'm pretty sure your reply to me (if there is one) is going to come with a personal insult.

 

[Dayton3]

Yes, and already discussed in another thread.

The US builds almost no ships. The shipping companies all go overseas now, because they are cheaper.

Last year, over 54 million tons of cargo ships were built worldwide. The US built 74,000 tons.

Why do you think China has been the largest purchaser of decommissioned US Navy ships for the past decade? They haul them over there, scrap them, then reuse the steel to build ships for other countries.

However, that is also not an infinite supply, and the value of scrapping ships has actually increased lately because the supply is drying up, and China is getting desperate for more ships to scrap to make into ships to sell.

If all of NATO and the US allies stopped sending their old warships to China for scrapping, wanna bet they are going to run out of raw materials in just a few years? They are already believed to be behind many of the WWII era wrecks being destroyed to salvage their steel.

I thought the biggest place to scrap ships was a wide beach in India where the tides allow ships to be driven way inshore and beached.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Interesting!

Is true. And sadly, nothing is really being done about it.

Dozens of warships believed to contain the remains of thousands of British, American, Australian, Dutch and Japanese servicemen from the second world war have been illegally ripped apart by salvage divers, the Guardian can reveal.

An analysis of ships discovered by wreck divers and naval historians has found that up to 40 second world war-era vessels have already been partially or completely destroyed. Their hulls might have contained the corpses of 4,500 crew.

The Guardian revealed last year that the wrecks of some of Britain’s most celebrated warships had been illegally salvaged, leading to uproar among veterans and archaeologists, who accused the UK government of not moving fast enough to protect underwater graves.

Three ships – HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, and HMS Electra – contained the bodies of more than 150 sailors. All sank during operations in the Java Sea in 1942, one of the costliest sea skirmishes for the Allies during the war.

In 2014, the wrecks of the HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales and the graves for more than 800 Royal Navy sailors were found to have been damaged by scavengers.

The world's biggest grave robbery: Asia’s disappearing WWII shipwrecks

Exclusive: the unmarked graves of thousands of sailors are threatened by illegal metal salvagers

www.theguardian.com

"Metal pirates" are looting sunken World War II ships for bronze propellers and other pieces of scrap, tearing slabs of metal from historical vessels that sometimes serve as maritime graves.

"In more recent years it’s not the treasure that’s making people go look for wrecks, it’s the metal," said Kim Browne, a lecturer in international law at Charles Sturt University in Australia and the author of a new study in the Journal of Maritime Archaeology. "The metal and bronze and all the casings of the electrical components of the ship bring in large amounts of money."

But many of the vessels now rest in the waters of countries that were largely victimized in World War II, and their local governments aren’t always keen to protect wrecks that symbolize a troubling colonial history. Moreover, many of these sunken ships, aircraft, and even some submarines also contain explosive ordinance, oil or chemicals that can pollute the surrounding marine environments.

'Metal Pirates' Are Scrapping Parts From Sunken World War II Wrecks

(Inside Science) – "Metal pirates" are looting sunken World War II ships for bronze propellers and other pieces of scrap, tearing slabs of metal from historical vessels that sometimes serve as maritime graves.

www.insidescience.org

Huge chunks of both the HMAS Perth and USS Houston are now gone. Primarily to be turned into ships in the shipyards of Indonesia. Most of those nations in the area like Indonesia and China have no actual steel production of their own. Instead they recycle it. And as the number of old ships is rapidly vanishing and prices are going up, many have resorted to stealing it from wrecks.

 

[Questerr]

Why do you love to bring up that I've never served in the military? I never claimed to have served in the military nor to have any special expertise in the military.

Does it really bother you that much that a person can learn about a subject by studying it?

I'm pretty sure your reply to me (if there is one) is going to come with a personal insult.

Never claimed to have any special expertise? You’ve claimed more than once that you have better strategies than actual generals do.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I thought the biggest place to scrap ships was a wide beach in India where the tides allow ships to be driven way inshore and beached.

That is commercial ships. The hulls of even WWII warships are far more valuable because of the quality of the steel used.

 

[Dayton3]

Never claimed to have any special expertise? You’ve claimed more than once that you have better strategies than actual generals do.

That isn't based on any level of personal expertise though. It is based on

1) Studying the work of actual experts.
2) Being willing to think outside of the box.