Serious racism afoot at the University of Wisconsin

[sangha]

All you liberals have to do is go to your local school and ask administration what minimum score would a white, latino, and black child need to get into gifted classes. I don't know if its due to Affirmative Action or not but it is happening. My wife is a school teacher. They tried to put our son in gifted until she found out his scores and she wouldn't allow it. He is Hispanic.

This is obviously discriminatory.

AA in the work place gives special treatment for minorities. Again it is easy to confirm and definitely discriminatory.

I did ask. There is no minimum score to get into college

 

[sangha]

Let us assume that you are correct.

My claim is that the state is rewarding the less capable over the more capable, without regard to skin color. So it really does not matter to the liberal who divides us into groups in order to set us upon one another. The end result is the same. Chaos.

This thread is about the supposed "racism" of AA. Try to stay on topic and not derail the thread with your hobby horse.

 

[sangha]

I am mostly white. I grew up very poor. I was in a family of eight. My father was wounded in the Korean war. He became, and lived, as an alcoholic. I decided to take a different path. I worked almost non-stop to be different than my father. I succeeded. I had failures along the way. But I never stopped trying to be the very best I could be.

For me Conservatism is home.

And you had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways :roll:

 

[Daddyo]

I did ask. There is no minimum score to get into college

I said school not college. My wife is a school teacher not college professor. The point was to prove that discrimination via race is happening right now. They tried to allow my son to enter gifted classes with a score that wouldn't had worked if we had listed him as white instead of hispanic. My wife is white and I am hispanic.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

I said school not college. My wife is a school teacher not college professor. The point was to prove that discrimination via race is happening right now. They tried to allow my son to enter gifted classes with a score that wouldn't had worked if we had listed him as white instead of hispanic. My wife is white and I am hispanic.

To make your assertions true you wouldve had to have submitted him twice. Once as white and once as hispanic and for him to be denied as white and accepted as hispanic. The story as you said it doesnt mean anything.

 

[Daddyo]

To make your assertions true you wouldve had to have submitted him twice. Once as white and once as hispanic and for him to be denied as white and accepted as hispanic. The story as you said it doesnt mean anything.

My wife is a school teacher and privy to the numbers. She deals with her students and their placement every year. Thats why she checked our sons scores to begin with. The story I posted was fact. You are more than welcome to check with the Hillsborough county school system. To make my assertion false you would need to show it to be wrong.

When you check for yourself I hope you are kind enough to post a retraction.

 

[Misterveritis]

For what it's worth, you've earned a great deal of respect from me.

Thank you.

 

[Misterveritis]

This thread is about the supposed "racism" of AA. Try to stay on topic and not derail the thread with your hobby horse.

Yeah. If it is not racism then what is it? I believe it is liberalism.

 

[Misterveritis]

And you had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways :roll:

In fact I did have to walk to school. On the way home each evening, after whatever sport's practice, I would go behind the grocery store to pick up clean cardboard. When I got home I would cut out new inserts for my shoes.

It was not the way I wanted to live. I competed with 60 others for two ROTC scholarships. I received one. I took enough courses to graduate with 158 semester hours which including several honors courses. I studied and held down jobs while attending. I graduated with a high, but not spectacular GPA. And now, 35 years later I am happy with my life.

 

[TurtleDude]

This thread is about the supposed "racism" of AA. Try to stay on topic and not derail the thread with your hobby horse.

I started the thread. You are the one trying to derail it, not him

 

[Aderleth]

I apologize to everyone. I violated one of my foundation rules, to seek to understand before responding. I will not make that mistake again any time soon.

I haven't even been paying attention to what you guys are talking about, but I wanted to point out that I respect the honesty. It's a rare thing. I'm loathe to admit mistakes myself.

 

[Misterveritis]

I haven't even been paying attention to what you guys are talking about, but I wanted to point out that I respect the honesty. It's a rare thing. I'm loathe to admit mistakes myself.

Integrity is more important to me than embarrassment. Once I read the report it was clear that Tucker's points were correct. We can still discuss the larger issues of the role affirmative action does have versus what it should have. The Supremes may decide this year whether a merit-based selection is more appropriate for a largely free society or not. It is worth having the discussion.

 

[Tucker Case]

Integrity is more important to me than embarrassment. Once I read the report it was clear that Tucker's points were correct. We can still discuss the larger issues of the role affirmative action does have versus what it should have. The Supremes may decide this year whether a merit-based selection is more appropriate for a largely free society or not. It is worth having the discussion.

And my point was mostly that the data do not automatically imply that racism is afoot. There are many more variables that need to be considered (especially considering that there are more variables taken into consideration in the admittance policies).

I would be very interested to see how the breakdown of scores coincides with athletic scholarships, for example. I suspect that the variance in scores might be due in part to athletics such as football, but such variables were not addressed in the study. This is an important variable, and a major potential confound for the study, because it is well-known that academic standards are relaxed for athletic programs regardless of the race of the athlete. (It would be very interesting to learn that the majority of the lower scoring students of all races were athletes, for example).

I haven't reviewed the Law school study, so I can't say anything about the variance in that study.

 

[ludahai]

IIf a kid from Carmel, Indiana (one of the finest state schools in Indiana) does only slightly better on the SAT than a kids who went to Northwest High School (a notorious high school in Indianapolis), I would probably take the kid from Northwest despite the lower score, because that kid (likely black) was in the neighborhood score-wise with the kid from Carmel (likely white, though last time I went through there, it was wee bit more diverse) and did so without nearly the same advantages as the kid from Carmel. Also, if I read their admissions essays and the kid from Northwest writes a more stirring argument for what college would do for him, that would make him a more appealing candidate.

However, there is a good chance that he is not as well prepared as the student with the higher scores. You are setting him up for a higher chance to flunk out. If he started out at a lower level school or community college, he could develop the skills needed to succeed at a higher level for two years and then transfer up.

There have been studies that show that this kind of AA results in higher dropout rates from those who 'benefited' from them. That isn't doing anyone any favors.

 

[ludahai]

Or their athletic ability

That benefits blacks with far greater proportionality than whites...

 

[TurtleDude]

If you judged a candidate based on a foot race but didn't make exceptions for someone who has a bad leg, then you would be discriminating against the handicapped. If a blind student is taking a test and it asks questions that rely on visual cues, then it's discriminating.

There are many things that discriminate - and standardized tests can do so, albeit unintentionally. A school - or a standard that is based solely on a test is NOT going to get you the best candidates. A test can be one measure among many, but to rely solely on a "standardized" test (whose standard?) is unreliable.

If a kid from Carmel, Indiana (one of the finest state schools in Indiana) does only slightly better on the SAT than a kids who went to Northwest High School (a notorious high school in Indianapolis), I would probably take the kid from Northwest despite the lower score, because that kid (likely black) was in the neighborhood score-wise with the kid from Carmel (likely white, though last time I went through there, it was wee bit more diverse) and did so without nearly the same advantages as the kid from Carmel. Also, if I read their admissions essays and the kid from Northwest writes a more stirring argument for what college would do for him, that would make him a more appealing candidate.

Do you see how that works? And yet, with the study you are using, you're saying it's racist to accept the kid from Northwest over the kid from Carmel, despite the fact that the kid from Carmel score higher on the SAT (and, in my hypothetical, wrote a less stirring admissions essay). Does the study account for admissions essays, GPA? Does it account for any other possible variable? Since it appears it does not, using this as an example of "racism" is merely more hullabaloo over attempts to create a diverse learning community for ALL students.

In your Dayton example: how would the black community feel if all the police officers in their town were white? If a test is resulting in everyone from a particular background failing, I would examine the test. Simply assuming that there's nothing wrong with the test and that there must be something wrong with every black person who applied - well, that's kinda what we're talking about here isn't it?

when I was at Yale it was more akin to them taking a 3.2 black student from Park-Tudor over a 4.0 white Kid From Cathedral or North Central

 

[TurtleDude]

However, there is a good chance that he is not as well prepared as the student with the higher scores. You are setting him up for a higher chance to flunk out. If he started out at a lower level school or community college, he could develop the skills needed to succeed at a higher level for two years and then transfer up.

There have been studies that show that this kind of AA results in higher dropout rates from those who 'benefited' from them. That isn't doing anyone any favors.

One study I posted on the Affirmative Action is racism thread established that putting underqualified black students in law schools where they were at the bottom of the qualification pool leads to less lawyers than if there is no racial preferences. A black kid who might star at say Ohio State but who gets into Columbia or Cornell is far more likely to be at the bottom of his class and thus is far more likely to drop out or fail the bar exam than if he had been in the middle of his class at OSU or a similar good but not top of the heap law school

your grades in law school are far more indicative of passing the bar than the ranking of your law school. A black guy with a B HS average and a 89th percentile LSAT might be a C- Student at Cornell but a B+ student at U of Kentucky and being a B+ student at U of K is far more conducive to passing your bar than being in the bottom 3 of your class at Cornell even though Cornell is one of the top schools in the USA and U of K is in the middle

 

[sangha]

Thank you.

I just want to point this out - You accused me of being dishonest based on your own misreading of the #'s.

 

[Misterveritis]

I just want to point this out - You accused me of being dishonest based on your own misreading of the #'s.

True. I thought you were dishonest before. And still think you are dishonest after.

But in this case you were right.