• We will be taking the server down at approximately 3:30 AM ET on Wednesday, 10/8/25. We have a hard drive that is in the early stages of failure and this is necessary to prevent data loss. We hope to be back up and running quickly, however this process could take some time.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Separation of Church and State"

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Oberon in post 108 says churches do not need a 501c3 status. I do not know. I suspect your point here is valid.

By IRS rules churches are exempted from various taxes, but that is dependent upon the church not engaging in politicking.

Most churches do not have a 501c3 status. Churches have been exempt from tax since the beginning of this country. The IRS implemented Internal Revenue Code § 501(c)(3) in 1954 including churches. I believe it has used it a couple of times to revoke a church's 501C3, but that had no affect on the tax expect status.

The First Amendment establishment clause protects a churche's tax status. The latest would be the positive law ruling in Town of Greece v. Galloway.
 
Last edited:
"Separation of Church and State"

Clearly we agree to disagree. We are both repeating the same points, and the other party does not comprehend.

You think those made exempt from taxes by a federal agency do not have to comply with any rules written by the agency to qualify for the exemption, while I think that if one is to be granted an exemption, one must obey the rules.

One cannot have rational public dialogue with a person in denial of certain facts. Priests and ministers are free to say whatever they wish in their churches, political or otherwise. Nobody restrains them, ever.

But if those priests and ministers wish to qualify and continue the privilege of not paying taxes, they must not advocate for political candidates. In a secular country that makes perfect sense to me.
I cannot imagine that the Holy Cross fathers are teaching such tortured logic, but anything is possible these days. I cannot help but wonder if that attitude of "no rules for me" somehow stems from some idea that "God is on my side"?

Once again a strawman argument.

"You think those made exempt from taxes by a federal agency do not have to comply with any rules written by the agency to qualify for the exemption, while I think that if one is to be granted an exemption, one must obey the rules"

The above has never been my argument. I have never taken the position cited immediately above and in quotation marks.

"One cannot have rational public dialogue with a person in denial of certain facts. Priests and ministers are free to say whatever they wish in their churches, political or otherwise. Nobody restrains them, ever.

But if those priests and ministers wish to qualify and continue the privilege of not paying taxes, they must not advocate for political candidates. In a secular country that makes perfect sense to me."

Once again, this has nothing to do with the notion of a "secular society." The question here is the Free Speech Clause of the 1st Amendment and conditioning tax exception status on the basis of foregoing a specific free speech right. You can invoke the irrelevant consideration of "secular society" but such a notion has nothing to do with the free speech clause.

Now, a parallel practice is in the area of federal welfare. Just as taxation, and the decision of who to tax, is a power of the government exercised at its discretion, so is the governments' establishment of conditions to be eligible for government welfare and appropriating money for welfare. The state governments, or county and city governments in the states, have established some conditions to receive welfare, such as random drug testing without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause as dictated by the 4th Amendment. This is unconstitutional.

Since this parallel example is unconstitutional, so too is analogous practice of the requirement of not exercising a specific 1st Amd. free speech right to receive or retain tax exception status.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

As I've already insinuated, I don't doubt that the IRS uses the term "excepted" in its rules and literature. I'm happy to take your word for that.

My point is that in the English Language which we here use, a source long accepted declares the 2 words to be synonyms. This isn't about ego from my view, it's about the meanings of words. Huff and puff all you wish sir, flaunt your law degree if it makes you feel better, but remember counselor, you're huffing and puffing about semantics.

Why should you show that part of Black's that separates the words? Because you're an honest person? :confused:

It has nothing to do with ego or anything but the IRS guidelines and how those terms are used; the codes uses the terms excepted, exception, and exempted, exemption, and exempt throughout, and they aren't interchangeable and do not have the exact same meaning, no matter what Roget says; that's because the IRS doesn't get to decide whether a church has permission or needs permission for anything, they are excepted,while 501(c)3's fall under corporate laws, which is why they apply and file for exemptions under statutes and regulations. There are also very strict rules on when and how the IRS can even audit a church at all; those are also available at the IRS website.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Oberon in post 108 says churches do not need a 501c3 status. I do not know. I suspect your point here is valid.

Right, they don't, and in any case pastors, ministers, and any other paid church employees are subject to payroll taxes like any other worker is; for some reason many here do not understand the difference between the church itself and its income and the ministers, who are employees or contractors if they are paid by the church. Most are paid via 1099's, as self-employed contractors, some get paid salaries, a huge number get paid nothing at all.l

By IRS rules churches are exempted from various taxes, but that is dependent upon the church not engaging in politicking.

Of course they can 'politik'; they have the same rights to free speech as anyone else does, and just because some fringe group politicizes something ridiculous, like legalizing baby killing or some sex fetish some mentally ill people feel a compulsion to indulge in in the local parks doesn't mean churches or any other group has to suddenly shut up and not say anything. It's ridiculous to claim otherwise. Would pastors also have to 'shut up n stop politiking' if they spoke out against passing a law that the government should start shoving law school grads into ovens, for instance?
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

But if those priests and ministers wish to qualify and continue the privilege of not paying taxes, they must not advocate for political candidates. In a secular country that makes perfect sense to me."

They have no such privilege, they do have to pay taxes, and they can say whatever they want like anybody else can. That is what secular means; it doesn't mean we get to censor preachers, despite what you've been reading to the contrary.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The First Amendment establishment clause protects a churche's tax status. The latest would be the positive law ruling in Town of Greece v. Galloway.

I wish this were true, and I lament it's, but the Establishment Clause doesn't protect a church's tax status either as "exempt" or as an "exception."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I wish this were true, and I lament it's, but the Establishment Clause doesn't protect a church's tax status either as "exempt" or as an "exception."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am relying on Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, and the recent ruling in Town of Greece v New York and its use of traditional regarding the Bill of Rights as understood by the first Congress.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Most churches do not have a 501c3 status. Churches have been exempt from tax since the beginning of this country. The IRS implemented Internal Revenue Code § 501(c)(3) in 1954 including churches. I believe it has used it a couple of times to revoke a church's 501C3, but that had no affect on the tax expect status.

The First Amendment establishment clause protects a churche's tax status. The latest would be the positive law ruling in Town of Greece v. Galloway.

Thank you for that information. Could you describe that part of the First Amendment that references the tax status of religion or a church?

Hint: there is no mention of the word 'tax status' in the First.

As I recall, the Greece v. Galloway case had nothing to do with tax status. Going just from memory, I thought it revolved around the issue of prayer before things like city commission meetings, and who could or could not offer those prayers.
 
Last edited:
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

It has nothing to do with ego or anything but the IRS guidelines and how those terms are used; the codes uses the terms excepted, exception, and exempted, exemption, and exempt throughout, and they aren't interchangeable and do not have the exact same meaning, no matter what Roget says; that's because the IRS doesn't get to decide whether a church has permission or needs permission for anything, they are excepted,while 501(c)3's fall under corporate laws, which is why they apply and file for exemptions under statutes and regulations. There are also very strict rules on when and how the IRS can even audit a church at all; those are also available at the IRS website.

It is interesting that in the link provided by the poster American on this thread, the cited language uses "exempt" and "exempted", and not "except" or "excepted".

Wallow in the semantics all you wish counselor, I've better things to do.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Thank you for that information. Could you describe that part of the First Amendment that references the tax status of religion or a church?

Hint: there is no mention of the word 'tax status' in the First.

As I recall, the Greece v. Galloway case had nothing to do with tax status. Going just from memory, I thought it revolved around the issue of prayer before things like city commission meetings, and who could or could not offer those prayers.

The First Amendment does not reference the tax status of religion or church, but it does prevent the “respecting”: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” The establishment clause prevents Congress from making any law, including tax laws, regarding a church or religion. The word “respecting” had a specific meaning and was used in the negative. The definition and common usage of the word “respecting” in the founding era meant relating, concerning, and regarding. The word “respecting is used in Article IV in the positive of allowing Congress to make laws or take actions:

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.​

Walz v. Tax Commission of City of New York in 1970 found the balance in between establishment via law vis-a-vis establishment via exemption from taxation.

Regarding Town of Greece v. Galloway, the basis of the ruling was the actions of the First Congress. The First Congress created the Bill of Rights, and the intent of exemption from taxes is still effective as there has been no amendment altering the meaning of the First Amendment’s religious clauses and the exemption from taxation:

134 S.Ct. 1811 (2014) This Court has often noted that actions taken by the First Congress are presumptively consistent with the Bill of Rights, see, e.g., Harmelin v. Michigan, 501 U.S. 957, 980, 111 S.Ct. 2680, 115 L.Ed.2d 836 (1991), Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 150-152, 45 S.Ct. 280, 69 L.Ed. 543 (1925), and this principle has special force when it comes to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause.​
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The First Amendment does not reference the tax status of religion or church, but it does prevent the “respecting”: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” The establishment clause prevents Congress from making any law, including tax laws, regarding a church or religion. The word “respecting” had a specific meaning and was used in the negative. The definition and common usage of the word “respecting” in the founding era meant relating, concerning, and regarding. The word “respecting is used in Article IV in the positive of allowing Congress to make laws or take actions:

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.​

Walz v. Tax Commission of City of New York in 1970 found the balance in between establishment via law vis-a-vis establishment via exemption from taxation.

Regarding Town of Greece v. Galloway, the basis of the ruling was the actions of the First Congress. The First Congress created the Bill of Rights, and the intent of exemption from taxes is still effective as there has been no amendment altering the meaning of the First Amendment’s religious clauses and the exemption from taxation:

134 S.Ct. 1811 (2014) This Court has often noted that actions taken by the First Congress are presumptively consistent with the Bill of Rights, see, e.g., Harmelin v. Michigan, 501 U.S. 957, 980, 111 S.Ct. 2680, 115 L.Ed.2d 836 (1991), Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 150-152, 45 S.Ct. 280, 69 L.Ed. 543 (1925), and this principle has special force when it comes to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause.​

Well thank you counselor, but you failed to note the substance of the case, Greece v. Galloway. I'm still betting that it was brought over the matter of who can lead prayers, and who cannot, at public meetings.

And thank you too for acknowledging, however underhandedly, that the First Amendment says not one single word about taxes or tax exemptions for religious organizations.

Some lawyers just love to hear themselves talk, and I suppose others just love to see themselves post. :mrgreen:
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Well thank you counselor, but you failed to note the substance of the case, Greece v. Galloway. I'm still betting that it was brought over the matter of who can lead prayers, and who cannot, at public meetings.

And thank you too for acknowledging, however underhandedly, that the First Amendment says not one single word about taxes or tax exemptions for religious organizations.

Some lawyers just love to hear themselves talk, and I suppose others just love to see themselves post. :mrgreen:

Why would I need to note anything regarding the Town of Greece other than the doctrinal method of how they reached their conclusion, which is applicable precedent outside of the reason for the suit?

Why would the First Amendment need to mention taxes to address "respecting." Does the First Amendment mention protests? Marches? Word processors? The Internet? Telephones. Email? No, because the principle is applied.

You come across as an easily triggered binary SJW.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Right, they don't, and in any case pastors, ministers, and any other paid church employees are subject to payroll taxes like any other worker is; for some reason many here do not understand the difference between the church itself and its income and the ministers, who are employees or contractors if they are paid by the church. Most are paid via 1099's, as self-employed contractors, some get paid salaries, a huge number get paid nothing at all.l



Of course they can 'politik'; they have the same rights to free speech as anyone else does, and just because some fringe group politicizes something ridiculous, like legalizing baby killing or some sex fetish some mentally ill people feel a compulsion to indulge in in the local parks doesn't mean churches or any other group has to suddenly shut up and not say anything. It's ridiculous to claim otherwise. Would pastors also have to 'shut up n stop politiking' if they spoke out against passing a law that the government should start shoving law school grads into ovens, for instance?

This was an interesting discussion until you could no longer hide your conservative religious agenda, at which point you shot your own argument in the ass. Your lightly veiled pot shots serve as a reminder to all why the separation of church and state is so critically important.

As for shoving law school grads in ovens, that idea might find grand support among all faiths, atheists and agnostics alike.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

It is interesting that in the link provided by the poster American on this thread, the cited language uses "exempt" and "exempted", and not "except" or "excepted".

Wallow in the semantics all you wish counselor, I've better things to do.

It's interesting to note he isn't citing the Code, just a guide, and it by no means is the entire guidelines, and doesn't prove a thing.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

This was an interesting discussion until you could no longer hide your conservative religious agenda, at which point you shot your own argument in the ass. Your lightly veiled pot shots serve as a reminder to all why the separation of church and state is so critically important.

I'm an agnostic and not religious at all; your won bigotry is showing here with your assumptions. And no matter now much drivel is peddled to the contrary, homosexuality is a mental illness, and their 'movement' is the primary source of these bogus arguments over 'separation of church and state' and merely lame attempts at censoring and shutting up Christians, as part of their agendas.

As for shoving law school grads in ovens, that idea might find grand support among all faiths, atheists and agnostics alike.

Well, it's as absurd as claiming pastors and churches are suddenly supposed to keep quiet about issues or lose tax excepted status if some collection of emotionally retarded neurotics declare their sex fetishes as a basis for a 'political movement'.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I am relying on Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, and the recent ruling in Town of Greece v New York and its use of traditional regarding the Bill of Rights as understood by the first Congress.

Walz v Tax Commission merely holds providing tax exempt/exception status does not violate the establishment clause. The case has never stood for the proposition the establishment clause protects such tax exempt/exception status to the extent that the government cannot remove tax exempt/exception status of the church or religious entities.

Town of Greece v New York is a non-taxation case, involving the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer. The Court had no difficulty finding the practice permitted under the establishment clause as prior precedent, Marsh v Chambers, upheld the practice in Nebraska.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I'm an agnostic and not religious at all; your won bigotry is showing here with your assumptions.

Yes, you are religious. Your words betray you.

And no matter now much drivel is peddled to the contrary, homosexuality is a mental illness, and their 'movement' is the primary source of these bogus arguments over 'separation of church and state' and merely lame attempts at censoring and shutting up Christians, as part of their agendas.

How does it go? When you find yourself stuck in a hole stop digging. You're digging with a backhoe.

You might check yourself on suggesting other people are mentally ill.

Well, it's as absurd as claiming pastors and churches are suddenly supposed to keep quiet about issues or lose tax excepted status if some collection of emotionally retarded neurotics declare their sex fetishes as a basis for a 'political movement'.

"Suddenly supposed to keep quiet"? How sudden is this?

Who said only pastors and churches are supposed to keep quiet? How about ALL religions should not be involved in politics? That would include yours and mine as well. Same same for all.

"Emotionally retarded neurotics declare their sex fetishes" and there you go again. Man, you have a hell of hate thing going on there. I don't even want to know how all that came about. All that hatred is not healthy. I know that much. You might want to talk to your pastor about it and your religious denial.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State&quot

Walz v Tax Commission merely holds providing tax exempt/exception status does not violate the establishment clause. The case has never stood for the proposition the establishment clause protects such tax exempt/exception status to the extent that the government cannot remove tax exempt/exception status of the church or religious entities.

Town of Greece v New York is a non-taxation case, involving the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer. The Court had no difficulty finding the practice permitted under the establishment clause as prior precedent, Marsh v Chambers, upheld the practice in Nebraska.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Walz concluded that not taxing churches is a far less of a government encroachment of the establishment clause than taxing churches. The Town of Greece ruling does not need any reference of taxation to be relevant. I am citing a few cases as judicial examples as argumentative precedent if a church is challenged. I do not believe in case law for constitutional matters. The two different rulings support each other in regarding the historical tradition and intent by the Congress that created the Bill of Rights.

From Walz:

Governments have not always been tolerant of religious activity, and hostility toward religion has taken many shapes and forms economic, political, and sometimes harshly oppressive. Grants of exemption historically reflect the concern of authors of constitutions and statutes as to the latent dangers inherent in the imposition of property taxes; exemption constitutes a reasonable and balanced attempt to guard against those dangers. The limits of permissible state accommodation to religion are by no means coextensive with the noninterference mandated by the Free Exercise Clause. To equate the two would be to deny a national heritage with roots in the Revolution itself. See Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398, 423 (1963) (HARLAN, J., dissenting); Braunfeld v. Brown, 366 U.S. 599, 608 (1961). See generally Kauper, The Constitutionality of Tax Exemptions for Religious Activities in The Wall Between Church and State 95 (D. Oaks ed.1963). We cannot read New York's statute as attempting to establish religion; it is simply sparing the exercise of religion from the burden of property taxation levied on private profit institutions.​


From Walz:

It is significant that Congress, from its earliest days, has viewed the Religion Clauses of the Constitution as authorizing statutory real estate tax exemption to religious bodies. In 1802, the 7th Congress enacted a taxing statute for the County of Alexandria, adopting the 1800 Virginia statutory pattern which provided tax exemptions for churches. 2 Stat. 194. As early as 1813, the 12th Congress refunded import duties paid by religious societies on the importation of religious articles. [n6] During this period, the City Council of Washington, D.C., acting under congressional authority, Act of Incorporation, § 7, 2 Stat. 197 (May 3, 1802), enacted a series of real and personal property assessments that uniformly exempted church property. In 1870, the Congress specifically exempted all churches in the District of Columbia [p678] and appurtenant grounds and property "from any and all taxes or assessments, national, municipal, or county." Act of June 17, 1870, 16 Stat. 153.​

From Town of Greece:

134 S.Ct. 1811 (2014) This Court has often noted that actions taken by the First Congress are presumptively consistent with the Bill of Rights, see, e.g., Harmelin v. Michigan, 501 U.S. 957, 980, 111 S.Ct. 2680, 115 L.Ed.2d 836 (1991), Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 150-152, 45 S.Ct. 280, 69 L.Ed. 543 (1925), and this principle has special force when it comes to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause. This Court has always purported to base its Establishment Clause decisions on the original meaning of that provision. Thus, in Marsh, when the Court was called upon to decide whether prayer prior to sessions of a state legislature was consistent with the Establishment Clause, we relied heavily on the history of prayer before sessions of Congress and held that a state legislature may follow a similar practice. See 463 U.S., at 786-792, 103 S.Ct. 3330.​
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State&quot

Walz concluded that not taxing churches is a far less of a government encroachment of the establishment clause than taxing churches. The Town of Greece ruling does not need any reference of taxation to be relevant. I am citing a few cases as judicial examples as argumentative precedent if a church is challenged. I do not believe in case law for constitutional matters. The two different rulings support each other in regarding the historical tradition and intent by the Congress that created the Bill of Rights.

From Walz:

Governments have not always been tolerant of religious activity, and hostility toward religion has taken many shapes and forms economic, political, and sometimes harshly oppressive. Grants of exemption historically reflect the concern of authors of constitutions and statutes as to the latent dangers inherent in the imposition of property taxes; exemption constitutes a reasonable and balanced attempt to guard against those dangers. The limits of permissible state accommodation to religion are by no means coextensive with the noninterference mandated by the Free Exercise Clause. To equate the two would be to deny a national heritage with roots in the Revolution itself. We cannot read New York's statute as attempting to establish religion; it is simply sparing the exercise of religion from the burden of property taxation levied on private profit institutions.​


From Walz:

It is significant that Congress, from its earliest days, has viewed the Religion Clauses of the Constitution as authorizing statutory real estate tax exemption to religious bodies. In 1802, the 7th Congress enacted a taxing statute for the County of Alexandria, adopting the 1800 Virginia statutory pattern which provided tax exemptions for churches. 2 Stat. 194. As early as 1813, the 12th Congress refunded import duties paid by religious societies on the importation of religious articles. [n6] During this period, the City Council of Washington, D.C., acting under congressional authority, Act of Incorporation, § 7, 2 Stat. 197 (May 3, 1802), enacted a series of real and personal property assessments that uniformly exempted church property. In 1870, the Congress specifically exempted all churches in the District of Columbia [p678] and appurtenant grounds and property "from any and all taxes or assessments, national, municipal, or county." Act of June 17, 1870, 16 Stat. 153.​

From Town of Greece:

134 S.Ct. 1811 (2014) This Court has often noted that actions taken by the First Congress are presumptively consistent with the Bill of Rights, and this principle has special force when it comes to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause. This Court has always purported to base its Establishment Clause decisions on the original meaning of that provision. Thus, in Marsh, when the Court was called upon to decide whether prayer prior to sessions of a state legislature was consistent with the Establishment Clause, we relied heavily on the history of prayer before sessions of Congress and held that a state legislature may follow a similar practice. See 463 U.S., at 786-792, 103 S.Ct. 3330.​

Walz does not stand for the proposition the establishment clause prohibits taxation of churches and religious entities. The language you cite from the Walz decision clearly indicates the Court is stating the government providing tax exemption and tax exception is permitted by the establishment clause. The history cited by the Court is relied upon to establish the principle that government exemption/exception from taxation extended to churches and religious entities is allowed under the establishment clause.

There is a difference between government conduct allowed by the establishment clause and government conduct prohibited by the establishment clause. Walz is dealing with the former, the Court deciding that government exemption/excepting churches and religious entities from taxation is allowed by the establishment clause. Walz never held government taxation of churches and religious entities was prohibited by the establishment clause and neither does the history cited by the Court make such a demonstration.

The Town of Greece case lacks, entirely, any "judicial example of argumentative precedent." There is nothing in the opinion to remotely suggest the establishment clause prohibits the government from taxing churches and religious entities. Ergo, the opinion thoroughly lacks "argumentative precedent." Indeed, there is a complete lack of historical evidence to support the idea the establishment clause precludes government taxation of churches and religious entities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Yes, you are religious. Your words betray you.

According to your own delusional reactionary mindset.

How does it go? When you find yourself stuck in a hole stop digging. You're digging with a backhoe.

What 'hole' is that?

You might check yourself on suggesting other people are mentally ill.

you might check out growing up and avoid trolling people.

"Suddenly supposed to keep quiet"? How sudden is this?

So you going to play dumb now.

Who said only pastors and churches are supposed to keep quiet?

Already covered that.

How about ALL religions should not be involved in politics?

Why should they not be involved? You obviously think people with religious views shouldn't be citizens and have no rights.

That would include yours and mine as well. Same same for all.

I don't have one, no matter how important it is for your biases that I have one. I have and would do the same in any thread started by some right winger running around spreading the conspiracy nonsense about LBJ's role in the IRS codes re this topic and churches' tax status; they are also full of crap as well, and for the same reasons.

"Emotionally retarded neurotics declare their sex fetishes" and there you go again. Man, you have a hell of hate thing going on there.

Pointing out the obvious isn't hate, as opposed to your obvious ranting here, which clearly is.

I don't even want to know how all that came about. All that hatred is not healthy. I know that much. You might want to talk to your pastor about it and your religious denial.

lol take your own advice; this tactic was old in the 1980's, and still doesn't work on anybody but people like yourself. There would be no 'issue' here without some agenda or other making it one, and that agenda is nearly always left wing and directed at conservative religious leaders, as the OP clearly intends. Nobody ever starts these threads by sniveling about Martin Luther King's using his pulpit for political advocacy, for instance, or the Quakers and Walter Lloyd Garrison and the Calvinists of the Hudson River Valley using their churches to start the abolitionist movements based on religious principles. No, it comes from such nasty venal types as the authors of this agenda, and your ranting comes from this, and your parroting is hardly original or 'enlightened', you're just another fashion victim being led around by the nose, trying to be one of 'kewl kidz'. lol

THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA -  By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

All of it is of course just a hoax,a people like you fall for it.
 
Last edited:
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I wish this were true, and I lament it's, but the Establishment Clause doesn't protect a church's tax status either as "exempt" or as an "exception."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be impossible for the Feds to come up with a law that would allow them to tax a church, so yes it does, even if not explicitly in the Bill of Rights. What is there to tax? there is no Federal property tax, and any personal income paid to ministers and employees is taxed, contrary to some beliefs out there. There might be an argument for a state or local govt. to come up with a tax, but again there is essentially nothing to tax outside of the property a church sits on, and god luck with that in any state. No politician is going to sponsor a bill like that, even if one assumes they can legally do so. Churches aren't corporations, nor are they charities, and they aren't profit seeking businesses, even if they raise money for themselves by the latter methods. They are not required to incorporate, nor do they need to seek exemptions from the IRS, they are automatically excepted from having to do so.

http://www.davidbealaw.com/files/articles/ChurchesIncorporate501c3.pdf

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2266&context=flr





Here are a couple of essays
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Why would I need to note anything regarding the Town of Greece other than the doctrinal method of how they reached their conclusion, which is applicable precedent outside of the reason for the suit?

Why would the First Amendment need to mention taxes to address "respecting." Does the First Amendment mention protests? Marches? Word processors? The Internet? Telephones. Email? No, because the principle is applied.

You come across as an easily triggered binary SJW.

Why would you need to elaborate and mention details on the Greece case?

Because you brought it up on this thread, vaguely claiming it has something to do with the tax exempt status of a church?

No, the First does not mention any of those things, nor does it mention taxes or tax status for religious organizations. Did you bring that up, or did Oberon?

Call me whatever you like counselor, but at this early point in the game, I cannot imagine paying good money to you for attorneys services rendered. Being unable to clearly make a point on an internet forum does not bode well for your performance in a courtroom in an actual case.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State"

It would be impossible for the Feds to come up with a law that would allow them to tax a church, so yes it does, even if not explicitly in the Bill of Rights. What is there to tax? there is no Federal property tax, and any personal income paid to ministers and employees is taxed, contrary to some beliefs out there. There might be an argument for a state or local govt. to come up with a tax, but again there is essentially nothing to tax outside of the property a church sits on, and god luck with that in any state. No politician is going to sponsor a bill like that, even if one assumes they can legally do so. Churches aren't corporations, nor are they charities, and they aren't profit seeking businesses, even if they raise money for themselves by the latter methods. They are not required to incorporate, nor do they need to seek exemptions from the IRS, they are automatically excepted from having to do so.

http://www.davidbealaw.com/files/articles/ChurchesIncorporate501c3.pdf

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2266&context=flr





Here are a couple of essays

It would be impossible for the Feds to come up with a law that would allow them to tax a church

This is not correct and nothing in the two essays supports this contention. I restate my prior remark to Tenyson, the Establishment Clause does not prohibit the government from taxing churches. The Establishment Clause does not imply the federal government is precluded from taxing churches. Furthermore, the historical record does not support any notion the Establishment Clause prohibits taxation of churches.

What is there to tax? there is no Federal property tax, and any personal income paid to ministers and employees is taxed, contrary to some beliefs out there.

The federal government can tax property. The fact there isn't a "Federal property tax" does not negate the fact Congress can tax property, including the property a church resides upon. A dialogue discussing taxation of churches at a minimum includes property taxes. Another aspect involving the taxation of churches is to tax the entity's (church) holdings, income, wealth, etcetera. Just as other entities, such as corporations, have their holdings, income, wealth, etcetera, taxed, so may a church. There is plenty to be taxed by Congress, should Congress decide to exercise its lawful authority to tax a church.

They are not required to incorporate, nor do they need to seek exemptions from the IRS, they are automatically excepted from having to do so.

The fact is, churches are automatically 501(c)(3) entities, regardless of whether they are incorporated, and regardless of whether they have requested recognition from the IRS. Information located at the first link in your post unequivocally makes this point. "First, many people do not realize that any organization that is properly classified as a church is automatically deemed to be tax exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, whether they have applied for IRS recognition of their 501(c)(3) status or not." http://www.davidbealaw.com/files/articles/ChurchesIncorporate501c3.pdf Indeed, information provided by another law firm echoes a similar point. "The IRS Internal Revenue Code section 508(c) sets out that churches are automatically recognized as tax-exempt under 501(c)(3), and the IRS does not require churches to apply for tax-exempt status if they meet the following criteria:
•The organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other charitable purposes,
•The net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder,
•No substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation,
•The organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and
•The organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy."
church tax exempt status

This information is consistent with my understanding of churches and 501(c)(3).

But I digress, my original point to Tenyson is the Establishment Clause does not preclude taxation of churches or other religious entities.
 
Re: "Separation of Church and State&quot

Walz concluded that not taxing churches is a far less of a government encroachment of the establishment clause than taxing churches. The Town of Greece ruling does not need any reference of taxation to be relevant. I am citing a few cases as judicial examples as argumentative precedent if a church is challenged. I do not believe in case law for constitutional matters. The two different rulings support each other in regarding the historical tradition and intent by the Congress that created the Bill of Rights.

From Walz:

Governments have not always been tolerant of religious activity, and hostility toward religion has taken many shapes and forms economic, political, and sometimes harshly oppressive. Grants of exemption historically reflect the concern of authors of constitutions and statutes as to the latent dangers inherent in the imposition of property taxes; exemption constitutes a reasonable and balanced attempt to guard against those dangers. The limits of permissible state accommodation to religion are by no means coextensive with the noninterference mandated by the Free Exercise Clause. To equate the two would be to deny a national heritage with roots in the Revolution itself. See Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398, 423 (1963) (HARLAN, J., dissenting); Braunfeld v. Brown, 366 U.S. 599, 608 (1961). See generally Kauper, The Constitutionality of Tax Exemptions for Religious Activities in The Wall Between Church and State 95 (D. Oaks ed.1963). We cannot read New York's statute as attempting to establish religion; it is simply sparing the exercise of religion from the burden of property taxation levied on private profit institutions.​


From Walz:

It is significant that Congress, from its earliest days, has viewed the Religion Clauses of the Constitution as authorizing statutory real estate tax exemption to religious bodies. In 1802, the 7th Congress enacted a taxing statute for the County of Alexandria, adopting the 1800 Virginia statutory pattern which provided tax exemptions for churches. 2 Stat. 194. As early as 1813, the 12th Congress refunded import duties paid by religious societies on the importation of religious articles. [n6] During this period, the City Council of Washington, D.C., acting under congressional authority, Act of Incorporation, § 7, 2 Stat. 197 (May 3, 1802), enacted a series of real and personal property assessments that uniformly exempted church property. In 1870, the Congress specifically exempted all churches in the District of Columbia [p678] and appurtenant grounds and property "from any and all taxes or assessments, national, municipal, or county." Act of June 17, 1870, 16 Stat. 153.​

From Town of Greece:

134 S.Ct. 1811 (2014) This Court has often noted that actions taken by the First Congress are presumptively consistent with the Bill of Rights, see, e.g., Harmelin v. Michigan, 501 U.S. 957, 980, 111 S.Ct. 2680, 115 L.Ed.2d 836 (1991), Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 150-152, 45 S.Ct. 280, 69 L.Ed. 543 (1925), and this principle has special force when it comes to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause. This Court has always purported to base its Establishment Clause decisions on the original meaning of that provision. Thus, in Marsh, when the Court was called upon to decide whether prayer prior to sessions of a state legislature was consistent with the Establishment Clause, we relied heavily on the history of prayer before sessions of Congress and held that a state legislature may follow a similar practice. See 463 U.S., at 786-792, 103 S.Ct. 3330.​

I want to augment by prior response to this post with the following remarks. The historical evidence cited by Walz in its reasoning demonstrates the Establishment Clause does not prohibit the federal government from taxing churches. If the Establishment Clause prohibited taxation of churches and/or church property, then Congress would not have needed to pass legislation providing "tax exemptions for churches." Congress passing legislation providing "tax exemption for churches" is a redundancy if the Establishment Clause already precluded taxation of churches. The historical evidence cited to by the Court in Walz demonstrates the First Congress did not understand the Establishment Clause to preclude taxation of churches, thereby necessitating the First Congress to provide "tax exemptions for churches."

The Establishment Clause does not prohibit government taxation of churches.
 
Back
Top Bottom