"Separation of Church and State"

[James972]

So, once a person begins to study history and sociology they should still listen to, and obey, what their less-educated parents have to say?

if I said that I'll pay the liberal $10,000. Bet? or run away once again with your liberal tail between your legs.

 

[James972]

Since jimmy has failed to answer my question, I thought I would provide the Ten Commandments that are called "commandments" in Exodus.

from the NRSV

Ten Commandments
I am the LORD thy God.
No other gods before me.
No graven images or likenesses.
Not take the LORD's name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day.
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Dear, that was merely pandering to the Muslims. Of course America was founded on Christianity. It was the source of all Western values. Before we were Christians we were Romans with quite different values. NOw do you understand?



America regularly attempted to assure the Muslims that as Christians, we had no religious hatred of them – that we had “no enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility” of the Muslims, and that our substantial differences of “religious opinions shall [n]ever produce an interruption of the harmony between the two nations.” Furthermore, we inserted specific clauses into the treaties to ensure that our Christian diplomats in their Muslim nations could practice their Christian faith, just as their Muslim diplomats in America could practice their Muslim faith. 15 Very simply, using multiple clauses, we attempted to reassure them that we were not like the Period II Christian nations that had attacked them simply because they were Muslims; America was not – and never had been – a party to any such religious war.

The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was just one of the many treaties in which each country recognized the religion of the other, and in which America invoked rhetoric designed to prevent a “Holy War” between Christians and Muslims. 16 Article XI of that treaty therefore stated:

Interesting that you say that for the Founders and Framers didn't want Christianity as part of government. Here's my point....

At the time of the writing of the Constitution, there were almost no Jews. Possibly not even any Buddhists, Hindus...etc. If there were any Muslims...they most likely slaves and practicing quietly.

But there were plenty of Christians. And there were a lot of different denominations. And the larger denominations got to make the local laws over the smaller Christians denominations while colonies.

The Founders and Framers were also mostly not of an important denomination: they were not Anglican, which is the Church of England. If you were not of that church, you could discriminated against for jobs, loans, marriage...etc. If you were Catholic...whoo boy...you were the lowest of low.

So, when they made the Constitution, they made sure of two things. First, that there could be no religious test for office or to be eligible for office. That was in the Constitution. However, they wanted to make sure that Christians, no matter what denomination, could practice their faith. Hence the First Amendment which says anyone can practice their faith no matter what it is...and second...the government could NOT support one over another and establish and state religion in doing so.

So, these two items were created with the worry that one Christian denomination might try to take over, and the best way to prevent that was to prevent Christianity...in any form...from being a part of government.

This threat happened. It had to do with the Danbury Baptists who sent a letter to Jefferson asking the government to intervene in their behalf. A larger Christian church was dominating the area as their church was much smaller. Jefferson wrote back, using the famous phrase, separation of church and state, which is rooted in the First Amendment as his policy of government non-interference of one Christian church over another.

That is exactly what the Founders and Framers were afraid of; that government would intervene and create a policy of one Christian church over another. And this is why they structured the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

To stop Christians from dominating each other and other religions within the framework of our government.

You guys seem to never pickup on that......

 

[Somerville]

if stupid why is the liberal so afraid to say why? What does the liberal learn from his fear?

jimmy, you know I'm not afraid to point our your ignorance and refusal to acknowledge reality but for some reason you appear to believe that your denials will 'prove' you are right. They never do, no matter what you believe.

Your words: " if the govt does not directly support Christianity it is not a Christian Country. It is a Muslim Country." This is one of the dumbest statements I have ever read. Why is it dumb? Anyone who is unable to say why, really really needs some more schooling.

 

[Somerville]

I said "Thou shalt not Kill", for example. If the liberal rejects that as one of the 10 Commandments please try to put into words the nature of the objection.

Thou shall not kill is not in the Ten Commandments that I provided - the only ones called the Ten Commandments.

 

[Somerville]

Ten Commandments
I am the LORD thy God.
No other gods before me.
No graven images or likenesses.
Not take the LORD's name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day.
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

That's only eight instructions, you seem to have missed: Thou shalt not steal. and Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Then there is one more, which appears to make Eleven Commandments, not Ten Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Oh, then there all the commandments to be read in Exodus 21, 22 and 23, but it seems those can be ignored by 'real Christians'.

 

[James972]

Thou shall not kill is not in the Ten Commandments.

See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance? Please check out Commandment No5


The ten commandments, in order, are:

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”


The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

The Jewish celebration of Sabbath (Shabbat) begins at sundown on Friday evening and lasts until sundown on Saturday. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians go to church on Sunday, treating it as the Lord’s Day instead of Saturday to honor the day Christ rose from the dead.

“Honor thy father and mother.”

This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.


“Thou shalt not kill.”

The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia.

“Thou shalt not steal.”


The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.


“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

In addition to the

 

[ElChupacabra]

Once again jimmy -- I have come to realise just how difficult it is for you to accept any concept, ideas or facts which contradict what you KNOW to be TRUE - but once again here are the facts.

That a nation has a population majority of one faith does not make that nation an X nation, UNLESS that one faith is specifically supported by the government, with all other faiths having their taxes going to support the state religion. Then there is the ever so small matter that there are those who call themselves Christian who refuse to acknowledge that others may also be Christian even when there are doctrinal differences. I once worked with a gentleman who told me one day that Catholics aren't "real Christians". There are 30,000+ groups which call themselves Christian -- WHY are there so many?

Some people don't get the concept of secular nations.

 

[James972]

To stop Christians from dominating each other and other religions within the framework of our government.

You guys seem to never pickup on that......

if you have evidence that we don't pick up in that I'll pay you $10,000. Bet???

 

[Somerville]

See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance? Please check out Commandment No5


The ten commandments, in order, are:

(snip)

In addition to the

Seriously jimmy, DUMMIES.COM? You do know you are supposed to give credit when you C&P another person's words, don't you?

 

[Somerville]

Ten Commandments from a non-Jewish source - some guy by the name of Solon. He lived in Athens, Greece, c. 638 to 558 BCE. In 594 B.C.E he was chosen to create a constitution for Athens; as far as we know today he was the first person to put a constitution into a written form. In that constitution, he said that all men regardless of their social class were to be given an equal voice in governance. he also wrote that all citizens had the right to keep and bear arms in defence of the city/state.

Diogenes Laertius, in his Lives of Eminent Philosophers, provides us with the Ten Commandments of Solon. They were his recommendations for creating and maintaining an equal and just system.
1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honour the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.


Oh yeah, jimmy, don't forget that Yahweh says you should not cook a kid in its mother's milk.

 

[jbander]

Dear, that was merely pandering to the Muslims. Of course America was founded on Christianity. It was the source of all Western values. Before we were Christians we were Romans with quite different values. NOw do you understand?



America regularly attempted to assure the Muslims that as Christians, we had no religious hatred of them – that we had “no enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility” of the Muslims, and that our substantial differences of “religious opinions shall [n]ever produce an interruption of the harmony between the two nations.” Furthermore, we inserted specific clauses into the treaties to ensure that our Christian diplomats in their Muslim nations could practice their Christian faith, just as their Muslim diplomats in America could practice their Muslim faith. 15 Very simply, using multiple clauses, we attempted to reassure them that we were not like the Period II Christian nations that had attacked them simply because they were Muslims; America was not – and never had been – a party to any such religious war.

The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was just one of the many treaties in which each country recognized the religion of the other, and in which America invoked rhetoric designed to prevent a “Holy War” between Christians and Muslims. 16 Article XI of that treaty therefore stated:

Article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli says

Article 11
'As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.'

That is what was written for the simple reason that is what they meant. Your a joke From you and your new rewrite of our first Treaty, You must be a brilliant man. A quote from above from you QUOTE: "The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was just one of the many treaties in which each country recognized the religion of the other, and in which America invoked rhetoric designed to prevent a “Holy War” between Christians and Muslims. 16 Article XI of that treaty therefore stated" OK Give me a half dozen times in other treaty's that say As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion We are all waiting . These wing nuts come on with their lies and distortions , I know exactly what party this guy is from. You just have to shake your head and laugh. There is a 12 step program called bull**** anonymous all member are from the right for some reason anyone have a clue why that is the case.

 

[Jason Warfield]

an obvious liberal lie. Do you have any evidence of this or is it more fake liberal news??

You can find it in his journal writings, letters to friends...all of this is curated in many Virginian universities. However, the largest collection is housed in the Library of Congress: The Thomas Jefferson Papers at the Library of Congress - Collection Connections | Teacher Resources - Library of Congress .

You can find copies of these documents in your local library if you do not trust online sources. Or you can make an appointment (not easy to get) to see the documents first hand.

I challenge you to do so, instead of reciting pundit talking points.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Regarding a $10,000 bet

PART ONE:

Madison was influenced by Jefferson on the First Amendment, which Jefferson was concerned about. Jefferson's influence came from his education over John Locke, who believed in a separation of the Christian church and state (or magistrate) -

“But this is not all. It is not enough that ecclesiastical men abstain from violence and rapine, and all manner of persecution. He that pretends to be a successor of the apostles, and takes upon him the office of teaching, is obliged also to admonish his hearers of the duties of peace and good-will towards all men; as well towards the erroneous as the orthodox; towards those that differ from them in faith and worship, as well as towards those that agree with them therein: and he ought industriously to exhort all men, whether private persons or magistrates, if any such there be in his church, to charity, meekness, and toleration; and diligently endeavour to allay and temper all that heat, and unreasonable averseness of mind, which either any man’s fiery zeal for his own sect, or the craft of others, has kindled against dissenters. I will not undertake to represent how happy and how great would be the fruit, both in church and state, if the pulpits every-where sounded with this doctrine of peace and toleration; lest I should seem to reflect too severely upon those men whose dignity I desire not to detract from, nor would have it diminished either by others or themselves. But this I say, that thus it ought to be. And if any one that professes himself to be a minister of the word of God, a preacher of the gospel of peace, teach otherwise; he either understands not, or neglects the business of his calling, and shall one day give account thereof unto the Prince of Peace. If christians are to be admonished that they abstain from all manner of revenge, even after repeated provocations and multiplied injuries; how much more ought they who suffer nothing, who have had no harm done them, to forbear violence, and abstain from all manner of ill usage towards those from whom they have received none? This caution and temper they ought certainly to use towards those who mind only their own business, and are solicitous for nothing but that, whatever men think of them, they may worship God in that manner which they are persuaded is acceptable to him, and in which they have the strongest hopes of eternal salvation. In private domestic affairs, in the management of estates, in the conservation of bodily health, every man may consider what suits his own conveniency, and follow what course he likes best. No man complains of the ill management of his neighbour’s affairs. No man is angry with another for an errour committed in sowing his land, or in marrying his daughter. No-body corrects a spendthrift for consuming his substance in taverns. Let any man pull down, or build, or make whatsoever expences he pleases, no-body murmurs, no-body controls him; he has his liberty. But if any man do not frequent the church, if he do not there conform his behaviour exactly to the accustomed ceremonies, or if he brings not his children to be initiated in the sacred mysteries of this or [23] the other congregation; this immediately causes an uproar, and the neighbourhood is filled with noise and clamour. Every one is ready to be the avenger of so great a crime.*And the zealots hardly have patience to refrain from violence and rapine, so long till the cause be heard, and the poor man be, according to form, condemned to the loss of liberty, goods or life. Oh that our ecclesiastical orators, of every sect, would apply themselves, with all the strength of argument that they are able, to the confounding of men’s errours! But let them spare their persons. Let them not supply their want of reasons with the instruments of force, which belong to another jurisdiction, and do ill become a churchman’s hands. Let them not call in the magistrate’s authority to the aid of their eloquence, or learning; lest perhaps, whilst they pretend only love for the truth, this their intemperate zeal, breathing nothing but fire and sword, betray their ambition, and show that what they desire is temporal dominion.*For it will be very difficult to persuade men of sense, that he, who with dry eyes, and satisfaction of mind, can deliver his brother unto the executioner, to be burnt alive, does sincerely and heartily concern himself to save that brother from the flames of hell in the world to come.”

This is just one of many members of the Enlightenment that the Founders and Framers drew their philosophies from. The Enlightenment era basically taught the ideas of rationalism, science and Deism.

 

[Jason Warfield]

PART TWO

As a result, there is skepticism over Christianity. Science and rational thought were to be used over religion. Christianity in particular as that was the religion of the day. That also meant, for Enlightenment thinkers, that the idea of the Christian God is one of irrationality because it cannot be proven. In particular, the miracles are often attacked and anywhere the Bible says to accept the word and power of God, is argued against because they cannot be rationally or scientifically proven.

As such, Enlightenment thinkers and writers had real problems with the involvement of the Christian God in politics...as Locke stated above. Again, the fear as stated above was that the faith of the Christians God would be used for government or personal gain. Which is the point of their thoughts on religion, which would be taken up by many of the Founders and Framers...especially Madison and Jefferson.

While they may have been against the Christian God, they did not discount that there could be a Creator. But that the Creator was largely absent, but whose existence could be proven by the world around them. Using science and rational thought. They wanted to take away the miracles, the blind faith that is demanded and replace it with a faith of the natural world. In the natural world there are no miracles, but discovery. No one entity demands tribute from mankind. And that all are equal in the eyes of Nature...not the Christian God. They were called Deists.

Jefferson was a deist, as were many other Founders and Framers like Madison. Yes, they went to church, but that was expected of them. It's kind of like when today, people show up at church for Christmas and Easter; just to be counted.

Now, we know Jefferson was a Deist and through his letters with Madison, we also know that Madison was also a Deist. We can find these letters in the Library of Congress with copies nationwide in the libraries. In addition, look at his Bible that he created by omitting all supernatural context, the resurrections and how he omitted many of the books to create a more Deist outlook on life. In the Jefferson Bible, he keeps the teachings of Jesus, but never believes him to be the Messiah, but rather a teacher of morals.

So, when Madison decided to create the Bill of Rights, he had the help of Jefferson to create a Deist form of religious protection of all religions (Deists believe in religious tolerance) as well as the Deist desire to keep Christianity out due to its lack of science and rationality in the fear that it would be used for personal agendas not relating to faith.

This fear would be realized under Jefferson's administration over the Danbury letters which asked him to use government office to replace one denomination of Christianity over another so that the lesser congregation would have greater political power in their district. Jefferson would refer to the First Amendment as the basis of his policy of “separation of church and state”, which in turn told the Danbury Baptists that it was not in the interest of the government to put one Christian over another.

Okay....I'll take that $10,000 now.