• We will be taking the server down at approximately 3:30 AM ET on Wednesday, 10/8/25. We have a hard drive that is in the early stages of failure and this is necessary to prevent data loss. We hope to be back up and running quickly, however this process could take some time.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Senate GOP tries one last time to repeal Obamacare

The PPACA is total crap. While it insured many very poor, others not as poor lost coverage. That's never right. It penalizes those who cannot afford to buy insurance, which is also never right. It will eventually fall on its own one way or the other.

It's sort of like the old saying about Democracy being the worst form of government, except for all the others.

It's easy to throw rocks at the ACA, but it's damn hard to design the better alternative that can get through Congress in this reality. Any "replace" that the GOP will propose will "penalize those who are old and sick" which is never right, will kick millions of poor off Medicaid which is never right, and will cut or eliminate subsidies for the not as poor, and will shift costs from insurance to OOP with higher deductibles and lots of expensive benefits not covered at all. And if you don't penalize those "who cannot afford insurance" even with community rating and subsidies on the marketplace (aka have a mandate), then there is no chance to address pre-existing conditions and losing your insurance because of a job loss might mean you NEVER GET INSURED AGAIN if you have a history of cancer, serious chronic heart, liver, kidney disease, arthritis, etc.
 
They opposed the ACA long before those problems. After Social Security and Medicare, they couldn't bear another proof that government can do things in a big way. GOP went from significant support of Social Security to being in the minority on Medicare (check out Reagan's speech predicting slavery if it passed) to no votes on ACA. Democrats made their own mistake in instituting a republican-ish program instead of allowing some public option, or joining the rest of the developed world with some variety of single payer. But GOP is coming around. Prior to Obamacare, GOP had nothing. Now it's some form of "repeal and replace." "Replace" means Obama moved the needle on the debate. Pretty consequential.

Stay tuned for the GOP's next flailing attempt. They actually might screw things up royally this time, given what I have heard of the new plan.

Those problems are a direct result of the ACA, entirely predictable. Democrats passed this bill with the intention of destroying the insurance industry. They've succeeded beyond their expectations.
 
Nobody "lost coverage." If one had a ACA noncompliant plan, your insurance company was obliged to over you a compliant one.

Those who "cannot afford to buy insurance," get subsidies, unlike the old system and unlike all GOP alternatives.

I lost coverage. It's too expensive and I have other things I need to spend money on.
 
I lost coverage. It's too expensive and I have other things I need to spend money on.

If you need the latest Iphone that's on you. I had a friend claim the same thing. Looked at his finances and found out he was incompetent with them. Probably the same thing with those that "lost" coverage. They whine and cry but when asked to actually prove it, they can't.
 
Oh yeah, many lost coverage:

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/43090

And no, not all who cannot afford the premiums get subsidies. Where have you been living? Under a rock?

That CBO report was a projection, and projecting that fewer would get work based coverage isn't the same thing as projecting people will lose coverage, although it's a safe bet that if 3 million lose work based coverage, a positive number will fail to get insurance on their own.

But we know the net effect of ACA - more people covered, millions more. So what you're really pointing out is the ACA, versus the previous status quo, had a downside. Ok, that is true, would be true of any known alternative to the previous status quo, and will definitely be true of any possible alternative to ACA, and in the case of the GOP plans, 10s of millions MORE losing coverage than under ACA on net.
 
Again MR....all you want to do is engage in games and shuffle to avoid the real issue. Lets try this: Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own...years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you will answer those questions. As for your question: Back in the early 1990's...Gingrich was one of the big proponents of the insurance mandate and made it the key component of the Republican plan in 93....as for today....I don't know how any of the Republicans in Congress would vote if the Republicans proposed a bill which included the insurance mandate. you are asking me to guess how they would vote. If you want me to speculate, I would most likely agree with you that now that the insurance mandate has been tried, they would learn from experience and would probably not want that in their insurance plan. However, therein lies the problem. How do you keep the pre-existing condition clause without having a pool of young/healthy consumers to balance it? You can't have it both ways. It has to be paid for someway.

You are the one shuffling to avoid the real issue. There is nary a Republican in Congress who would vote for keeping the mandate and that's why you keep on dodging the issue and claiming otherwise.
 
You are the one shuffling to avoid the real issue. There is nary a Republican in Congress who would vote for keeping the mandate and that's why you keep on dodging the issue and claiming otherwise.

That is probably true and if it is it's a damning indictment of the modern GOP. It would mean that at least many Republicans abandoned a principled position on the mandate just because Democrats agreed with them and made it part of ACA. Or, if OBAMA!!! supported it they must be agin it, no matter the merits!
 
So what you're really pointing out is the ACA, versus the previous status quo, had a downside. .

Yes, it had a downside. Is it right to harm someone else (someone innocent) in an attempt to help others?

My sister, a single mother, makes a decent wage from her own business, and she used to have what was deemed a substandard plan by the PPACA. She didn't pay a lot for it, but the times her kids were sick or injured, it payed a substantial amount. The PPACA took that plan away but she did not qualify for a subsidy because she made too much. Why couldn't she afford the premiums then? Because she has a large mortgage payment that she has to pay for by herself and she's paying back taxes to the IRS because her no-good ex-husband took off after he got in trouble, leaving her to pay all the penalties. They have yet to find him. She said that after losing her substandard policy, she really needed to save the little money she had to pay for any of the kids' medical bills, but then she was penalized for not being able to afford the premiums and that little bit of money was taken away from her as well.

Obamacare made a big mistake in thinking that people who make the same wages have the same money left over after paying bills.

It's nice to insure the poor - but not at the expense of people like my sister who struggle to pay their own way.
 
Yes, it had a downside. Is it right to harm someone else (someone innocent) in an attempt to help others?

We are talking public policy here. It's impossible to devise anything significant that will help others that has no downside, i.e. will harm someone else, so the standard is absurd. So of course it can be "right" to harm someone else TO help others. It cannot be any other way.

My sister, a single mother, makes a decent wage from her own business, and she used to have what was deemed a substandard plan by the PPACA. She didn't pay a lot for it, but the times her kids were sick or injured, it payed a substantial amount. The PPACA took that plan away but she did not qualify for a subsidy because she made too much. Why couldn't she afford the premiums then? Because she has a large mortgage payment that she has to pay for by herself and she's paying back taxes to the IRS because her no-good ex-husband took off after he got in trouble, leaving her to pay all the penalties. They have yet to find him. She said that after losing her substandard policy, she really needed to save the little money she had to pay for any of the kids' medical bills, but then she was penalized for not being able to afford the premiums and that little bit of money was taken away from her as well.

No one can address that situation because there aren't enough details to make an informed judgment on anything. So we'll just take it as a given that your sister was hurt. But in another hypothetical, the single mother business owner making over $80k/year with a child who has a disability, or who has had breast cancer, cannot get insurance at all, EVER, because the pre-existing condition makes her and/or her family like toxic waste to an insurance company. How are we as society supposed to weight those two cases - your sister versus that cancer survivor? We can't address your sister without leaving that other mother out in the cold, and we can't address pre-existing conditions without a mandate, so how do you suggest we solve this moral or ethical dilemma?

The solution CANNOT be - any change must not harm anyone in any situation because that is impossible. In the alternative to the impossible, on what ethical or moral or even practical basis do we evaluate changes in public policy?

Obamacare made a big mistake in thinking that people who make the same wages have the same money left over after paying bills.

I agree with that in principle. Just for example, someone making more than $80k like your sister is likely in the top 10% of income in my area, although only top third nationally. And it would pay for a great house here, but in maybe not even a 1 bedroom flat in Manhattan or SF or Seattle without difficulty. So, sure, it would have been good to adjust that stuff for standard of living, but that increases the costs. And for the subsidy limits, should we give HIGHER subsidies to those with great big houses with large mortgages and who are delinquent on their federal income taxes? I know it might not be your sister's fault, but how can you write that into the law?

It's nice to insure the poor - but not at the expense of people like my sister who struggle to pay their own way.

OK, but you're not stating an alternative. That was my original point. The ACA sucks. TRUE! The pre-ACA status quo sucked! The post-ACA GOP alternative WILL suck and there will be millions of stories like your sister's of people harmed by the GOP "replace." So I guess the GOP should not do any replace since no matter what they come up with someone will be harmed?
 
You are the one shuffling to avoid the real issue. There is nary a Republican in Congress who would vote for keeping the mandate and that's why you keep on dodging the issue and claiming otherwise.

I'm not the one dodging.....lets see if you are: Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate was part of the 1993 Republican Healthcare proposal....years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you can answer the questions MR.....or are you just going to shuffle away yet again?
 
That is probably true and if it is it's a damning indictment of the modern GOP. It would mean that at least many Republicans abandoned a principled position on the mandate just because Democrats agreed with them and made it part of ACA. Or, if OBAMA!!! supported it they must be agin it, no matter the merits!
Yep.....thats the part that MR wants to conveniently avoid accepting.
 
I'm not the one dodging.....lets see if you are: Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate was part of the 1993 Republican Healthcare proposal....years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you can answer the questions MR.....or are you just going to shuffle away yet again?

Are you disputing the fact that almost no current Republican would vote to keep the mandate? Why don't you be honest and then we can have an honest debate without you defaulting to your biased partisan position and totally ignoring MY question? Please list the names of all of the current Republican Congressman who would vote to keep the mandate. If you play the deflection game again then we will know who the true shuffler is.
 
Are you disputing the fact that almost no current Republican would vote to keep the mandate? Why don't you be honest and then we can have an honest debate without you defaulting to your biased partisan position and totally ignoring MY question? Please list the names of all of the current Republican Congressman who would vote to keep the mandate. If you play the deflection game again then we will know who the true shuffler is.

Like I thought.....your inability or just avoidance of the questions speaks volumes to your willingness to actually engage in honest debate. I have answered your question numerous times....I'll answer it again. Do I believe that any republican would vote today to keep the mandate? Probably not...knowing now what they didn't know back when they embraced it....and knowing the public's opposition to it...it is doubtful that they would. However, that is simply speculation and who knows what they would do if it were included in a republican plan. They say they want to keep the pre-existing illness clause...but they have to pay for it some way...which they haven't explained how. It still doesn't change the past....so will you shuffle again MR?
Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate was part of the 1993 Republican Healthcare proposal....years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you can answer the questions MR.....or are you just going to shuffle away yet again?

 
Like I thought.....your inability or just avoidance of the questions speaks volumes to your willingness to actually engage in honest debate. I have answered your question numerous times....I'll answer it again. Do I believe that any republican would vote today to keep the mandate? Probably not...knowing now what they didn't know back when they embraced it....and knowing the public's opposition to it...it is doubtful that they would. However, that is simply speculation and who knows what they would do if it were included in a republican plan. They say they want to keep the pre-existing illness clause...but they have to pay for it some way...which they haven't explained how. It still doesn't change the past....so will you shuffle again MR?
Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate was part of the 1993 Republican Healthcare proposal....years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you can answer the questions MR.....or are you just going to shuffle away yet again?



Once again - the big dodge
 
Once again - the big dodge

LOL....yep.....you continue to dodge. Why are you afraid to answer the question MR? Is it because you don't know the answer.....or is it because you DO know the answer and are just too wimpy to answer it? Let everyone on the site see you shuffle and dodge again:

Are you disputing the fact that Republicans embraced the insurance mandate as their own? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate was part of the 1993 Republican Healthcare proposal....years before the ACA? Are you disputing the fact that the insurance mandate originated from the "Heritage Foundation"?

Lets see if you can answer the questions MR.....or are you just going to shuffle away yet again?
 
OK, but you're not stating an alternative. That was my original point. The ACA sucks. TRUE! The pre-ACA status quo sucked! The post-ACA GOP alternative WILL suck and there will be millions of stories like your sister's of people harmed by the GOP "replace." So I guess the GOP should not do any replace since no matter what they come up with someone will be harmed?

My alternative is, and has always been, to kick the insurance industry to the curb -- they are the middle man -- cut them out. Cut out all forms of insurance -- raise taxes (on everyone) and offer care to everyone -- within limits. No elective surgeries. No cosmetic procedures, unless it's to correct a severe deformity. That means we'd be paying all indigent bills, but it also means we'd be paying less than we are right now to prop up both the healthcare industry and the insurance industry.
 
I don't understand why we can't get rid of the employer tax break, have employers pay a flat fee for every employee (whether they take the insurance or not) and have that be part of the funds used for healthcare.
Why is it okay to allow big companies to negotiate special rates with insurance companies, so companies with thousands of employees get a break while smaller companies with older higher risk individuals get higher premiums.
I worked for a company with about 500 employees, I was part of the team that went after new companies every year to try and get the best deal.
I found out only 25% of the employees participated in the insurance (most were married and used there spouses) and because 90% of the company was women over 40 the rates were prior to ACA $2600 per month for a single person and the employer paid 80%. This was a bare bones crap policy that was the best we could get.
One insurer told me even if all 500 people signed up it would not lessen the premium due to the risk category the company was in.

You can blame the insurers, the government and everyone else but much of this is "we the people's" fault we were, are not paying attention.
We are all to busy fighting each other over freedoms, rights, compassion, empathy, constituition...etc

Medicare a 100% government program. Why are private insurance companies spending millions to get people to let the private company manage it for free? Not a supplement but pick me, pick me I'll give you anything so you have a BCBS, Humana, Harvard Pilgrim, Vanguard card in your pocket instead of a plain old medicare card that only pays 80% while they pay 100%.

The whole thing is just stupid.
 
My alternative is, and has always been, to kick the insurance industry to the curb -- they are the middle man -- cut them out. Cut out all forms of insurance -- raise taxes (on everyone) and offer care to everyone -- within limits. No elective surgeries. No cosmetic procedures, unless it's to correct a severe deformity. That means we'd be paying all indigent bills, but it also means we'd be paying less than we are right now to prop up both the healthcare industry and the insurance industry.

I wouldn't mind that option either, but it's not likely (i.e. odds approach 0.0%) a bill that takes $500 billion or more in market cap to near zero makes it through Congress. I doubt if there are 10 ACTUAL supporters of something like that in the Senate if push comes to shove, and we'll need 60 votes. And we don't need that, really. If we look at Europe and economies most similar to ours, AFAIK all but England have operating health insurance companies, and most have a role for private plans similar in concept to Medicare Advantage in many cases, and they still cover everyone.

At any rate, the realities of Congress and the power of industries worth $100s of billions and willing to spend a significant share of that new worth to ensure their survival isn't something that can just be wished away, and those realities are why I support the ACA at this point as the least bad of bad options.
 
I don't understand why we can't get rid of the employer tax break, have employers pay a flat fee for every employee (whether they take the insurance or not) and have that be part of the funds used for healthcare.

I think the short answer is we have a political party that controls Congress, the WH and a clear majority of the states that simply does not believe in and is not interested in getting to universal healthcare coverage.

Why is it okay to allow big companies to negotiate special rates with insurance companies, so companies with thousands of employees get a break while smaller companies with older higher risk individuals get higher premiums.

The big companies all or nearly all self insure, and the insurance company on the card for those companies is just who they pick to administer claims consistent with their coverage.

I worked for a company with about 500 employees, I was part of the team that went after new companies every year to try and get the best deal.
I found out only 25% of the employees participated in the insurance (most were married and used there spouses) and because 90% of the company was women over 40 the rates were prior to ACA $2600 per month for a single person and the employer paid 80%. This was a bare bones crap policy that was the best we could get.
One insurer told me even if all 500 people signed up it would not lessen the premium due to the risk category the company was in.

You can blame the insurers, the government and everyone else but much of this is "we the people's" fault we were, are not paying attention.
We are all to busy fighting each other over freedoms, rights, compassion, empathy, constituition...etc

Medicare a 100% government program. Why are private insurance companies spending millions to get people to let the private company manage it for free? Not a supplement but pick me, pick me I'll give you anything so you have a BCBS, Humana, Harvard Pilgrim, Vanguard card in your pocket instead of a plain old medicare card that only pays 80% while they pay 100%.

The whole thing is just stupid.

I agree with most of that part.
 
You are the one shuffling to avoid the real issue. There is nary a Republican in Congress who would vote for keeping the mandate and that's why you keep on dodging the issue and claiming otherwise.

And yet the republicans in the senate couldnt agree to repeal the ACA outright or a replacement. And the house only did so out of ignorance because many didn't even know what they were voting on.
 
And yet the republicans in the senate couldnt agree to repeal the ACA outright or a replacement. And the house only did so out of ignorance because many didn't even know what they were voting on.

Thanks for admitting that there are almost no Republicans in congress who would vote to keep the mandate. That wasn't really so hard was it? Now we can move on to more substantial discussions. I must point out that it was Nancy Pelosi who famously said they had to vote on Obamacare to know what they were voting on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU
 
Thanks for admitting that there are almost no Republicans in congress who would vote to keep the mandate. That wasn't really so hard was it? Now we can move on to more substantial discussions. I must point out that it was Nancy Pelosi who famously said they had to vote on Obamacare to know what they were voting on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

I didn't admit to anythin but you obviously agree with Nancy then, glad you admitted that.
 
I didn't admit to anythin but you obviously agree with Nancy then, glad you admitted that.

I do actually admit that. The left rammed through Obamacare in a partisan fashion and so too are the right trying to do the very same thing. Both parties are disgusting and need to go.
 
Thanks for admitting that there are almost no Republicans in congress who would vote to keep the mandate. That wasn't really so hard was it? Now we can move on to more substantial discussions. I must point out that it was Nancy Pelosi who famously said they had to vote on Obamacare to know what they were voting on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

That's a pretty worn out talking point that was lame the first time around and is just pathetic at this point. That quote was after months of hearings in the House and Senate, debates, hundreds of proposed amendments, etc. Anyone paying attention at all knew what was in the bill at that point. So it's sort of like pointing out a typo.
 
Back
Top Bottom