Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans[W:466]

j-mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
And if you have data on that breakdown with the system falling apart resulting in voter fraud convictions I would love to see it.

See we all know why you shifted to the "conviction" standard, and it was outlined in one of the many articles I posted earlier....

And that is that claims of fraud have to be reviewed by the Board of Elections, and if they don't report it to the DA then they don't exist right?

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

cpwill said:
That is an excellent point, Haymarket. I agree. We should put in a changed model to ensure that our system is protected against the kind of voter fraud that was featured in your district, including but not limited to the use of identification for determining public representation.

The identification that is used here is the matching of signatures. Only if there is a problem with that does the other forms of ID come in.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

jmotivator said:
THe system you just stated has absolutely zero monitoring.

What exactly is your concept of monitoring an election? Every election I have participated in for over forty years has been monitored by several people.

I've read it. The "study" doesn't do any of its own investigation, only collects data on existing fraud investigations which is pointless if the fraud monitoring is lazy and full of holes and relies on "due diligence" of the intake system as the single point of failure.

You don't like the results so you condemn the study with vague accusation without any evidence of substantiation combined with paranoid and partisan fueled assumptions.

Yep, the standard response. "Show me the voter fraud! Wait!!! Stop screening for voter fraud!

You seem to lack the ability to carry forth what you have learned and apply it. We do screen for voter fraud. And have been for quite a while now.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

j-mac said:
See we all know why you shifted to the "conviction" standard

What other standard is there to identify actual voter fraud?

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

ttwtt78640 said:
The idea that ID is only useful in preventing person A from voting as person B ignores the distinct possibility of person A registering as person A of Boston, person A of San Antonio and person A of NYC. I seriously doubt that these polling locations crosscheck the roles to see if person A in one district/state matches that of person A in all others - virtually impossible if only the (non-unique) name A can be used.

Once you make such foolish and faulty assumptions (bolded above) then any conclusions that are based on those assumptions are worthless. The presentation of a valid, state issued, photo ID serves to greatly limit the number of name/address combinations available to a given individual over say rent/utility receipts, property tax bills, library cards or many other documents that individuals can (and do) possess from various locations e.g. vacation properties, hunting leases, rental properties and many other reasons for owning/using multiple properties/dwellings. One such group, quite common in Texas, are the "snowbirds" that are part-time (but regular) "residents" of Texas during the election season but that should cast only absentee ballots in their place of primary residence.

You bring up some good points. And as long as we have local control of elections and not national control in elections for national offices with a nation wide procedure that all must follow and can be checked - those sorts of things will indeed happen.

Perhaps you can bring this up in the constitutional convention here and we can propose changes in that ?

j-mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
What other standard is there to identify actual voter fraud?

You tell me, The Board acknowledges that more exists, but won't refer it to the DA for prosecution, so I guess it will never exist if it's not reported isn't that right....That's why you moved the goal posts....Shows me you know you've lost the debate.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

j-mac said:
You tell me, The Board acknowledges that more exists, but won't refer it to the DA for prosecution, so I guess it will never exist if it's not reported isn't that right....That's why you moved the goal posts....Shows me you know you've lost the debate.

The goal posts have been right where they have always been. I have moved nothing.

ttwtt78640 · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
You bring up some good points. And as long as we have local control of elections and not national control in elections for national offices with a nation wide procedure that all must follow and can be checked - those sorts of things will indeed happen.

Perhaps you can bring this up in the constitutional convention here and we can propose changes in that ?

National (federal) control of elections is constitutional now but would likely require a national voter registration database to limit the current multiple voting opportunities. I would prefer to use something like the NICS database (and possibly E-verify?) to accomplish that - it is based on SSN and already includes the data to allow excluding convicted felons and non-ctiizens (if that were part of the deal).

j-mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
The goal posts have been right where they have always been. I have moved nothing.

Oh sure you did...Typical Haymarket debate...Say something, then change the parameters, and wait several pages and claim you never said such....Problem is it is right there in black and white for everyone to see your dishonesty...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...er-republicans-w-466-a-66.html#post1063939223

cpwill · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
The identification that is used here is the matching of signatures. Only if there is a problem with that does the other forms of ID come in.

Well clearly there is a problem - you were denied legal representation in Congress! That's Fraud, and it resulted in sitting Congresscritters casting legally binding votes on national legislation! We need to require ID right away to stop this sort of thing from happening ever again.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

ttwtt78640 said:
National (federal) control of elections is constitutional now but would likely require a national voter registration database to limit the current multiple voting opportunities. I would prefer to use something like the NICS database (and possibly E-verify?) to accomplish that - it is based on SSN and already includes the data to allow excluding convicted felons and non-ctiizens (if that were part of the deal).

I think we are onto something. I would have no problem with some sort of national voter ID card - without charge - which would give some what they want in exchange for national laws on national offices with national mandates for things like voting hours, voting machine standards, and the like. That would be the sort of compromise which give both sides something. I think progressives and Dems are well aware of the mike Turzai statement and believe that such GOP goals are the real reason for voter ID Laws. And Turzai did no favors to those who want it with his comments and admission. Progressives cringe when we see stories on the TV where thousands of "our voters" are lined up for hours at precincts with only a few machines while those precincts in "their voter" districts always seem to be plentiful and lines are shorter.

If we can establish national standards for nation office elections - that might be the shared ground leading to compromise. And lets face it, that will become the defacto election since I see few local districts running a side by side contrary election of just state or local offices as it would be too expensive.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

cpwill said:
Well clearly there is a problem - you were denied legal representation in Congress! That's Fraud, and it resulted in sitting Congresscritters casting legally binding votes on national legislation! We need to require ID right away to stop this sort of thing from happening ever again.

The election fraud which denied me a legitimate representative in the House came from Republican Thad McCotter and not voters.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

j-mac said:
Oh sure you did...Typical Haymarket debate...Say something, then change the parameters, and wait several pages and claim you never said such....Problem is it is right there in black and white for everyone to see your dishonesty...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...er-republicans-w-466-a-66.html#post1063939223

I clicked. I saw nothing of the kind. What statement of mine are you referring to?

here is what I got when I clicked to the link

Originally Posted by Grant
Have you tried googling voter fraud?

from me in reply

I will be more than happy to look at any evidence you would like to present.

Yes, I clearly stated I would like at evidence of voter fraud. And still am willing to do that. There seems to be a huge chasm between me and you as to what constitutes evidence of voter fraud. That difference of opinion is NOT dishonesty as you charge. My standard has ALWAYS been that voter election fraud is measured by those convicted of it since there is no other accurate way to identify it and quantify it.

If you know another way - please present it.

j-mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
I clicked. I saw nothing of the kind. What statement of mine are you referring to?

here is what I got when I clicked to the link

from me in reply

Yes, I clearly stated I would like at evidence of voter fraud. And still am willing to do that. There seems to be a huge chasm between me and you as to what constitutes evidence of voter fraud. That difference of opinion is NOT dishonesty as you charge. My standard has ALWAYS been that voter election fraud is measured by those convicted of it since there is no other accurate way to identify it and quantify it.

If you know another way - please present it.

Well, between myself and Grant giving you at least 10 plus articles from all different parts of the country, and you don't see any evidence of it, I guess we shall have to wait until demo's lose, and then you'll be out there crying that we stole the elections....

cpwill · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
The election fraud which denied me a legitimate representative in the House came from Republican Thad McCotter and not voters.

Precisely - they were able to make up voters. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, which is why we need voter ID right away. Haymarket, you have brought important information to this discussion - voter fraud is indeed a bipartisan concern. I'm glad to see you are now on-board with the need to prevent it as much as possible.

mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
In my community it works like this:

you show up at city hall to the clerk and tell them you want to register to vote
you present them with some form of legal ID
you fill out the application papers
you provide them with a signature of your name
the clerk then performs their due diligence as part of their legal responsibility to the state and community
they then place the copy in the voters book which goes to your precinct on election day
when I show up to vote I provide my signature on a form they give me
a clerk compares my signature to the book
if there is a discrepancy they can ask me for other ID
when they are satisfied I am who I say I am and I match the registration
I then vote

They don't ask for my signature....just name and address. That they compare to the book. I don't, however, have to prove I am me at time of voting.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

j-mac said:
Well, between myself and Grant giving you at least 10 plus articles from all different parts of the country, and you don't see any evidence of it, I guess we shall have to wait until demo's lose, and then you'll be out there crying that we stole the elections....

Its a really big country with over 100 millon people casting votes in thens of thousands of communities. If there were not a few irregularities I would be shocked. And that is what the reports are - anecdotal information of small time stuff like the woman in Ohio who pled guilty. Now compare that to 100 million voters and tell me about the big problem of voter election fraud. Those few anecdotal stories do not constitute anything near that.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

cpwill said:
Precisely - they were able to make up voters. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, which is why we need voter ID right away. Haymarket, you have brought important information to this discussion - voter fraud is indeed a bipartisan concern. I'm glad to see you are now on-board with the need to prevent it as much as possible.

How does voter ID speak to what McCotter did with taking old petitions from years past and xeroxing the sigs on new petitions? There seems to be a huge disconnect between this event and what you are trying to twist it to represent......... or else you are trying to be funny or clever and coming up short.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

mac said:
They don't ask for my signature....just name and address. That they compare to the book. I don't, however, have to prove I am me at time of voting.

That is what you advocate?

cpwill · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
How does voter ID speak to what McCotter did with taking old petitions from years past and xeroxing the sigs on new petitions?

setting up the ability to actually check who is making decisions regarding representation through an ID check provides a hurdle for those who would commit fraud. Having a fraudulent congressman is no better than having a fraudulently elected Senator - they are both wrong and neither should happen and frankly, it's a bi-Partisan problem. Again, I'm glad to see that you now take this seriously.

haymarket · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

cpwill said:
setting up the ability to actually check who is making decisions regarding representation through an ID check provides a hurdle for those who would commit fraud. Having a fraudulent congressman is no better than having a fraudulently elected Senator - they are both wrong and neither should happen and frankly, it's a bi-Partisan problem. Again, I'm glad to see that you now take this seriously.

your reply does not speak to my question: How does voter ID speak to what McCotter did with taking old petitions from years past and xeroxing the sigs on new petitions?

mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
That is what you advocate?

No, I should have to prove I am me at time of voting. That it is not you pretending to be me, or me pretending to be a guy that died earlier this year.

mac · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
your reply does not speak to my question: How does voter ID speak to what McCotter did with taking old petitions from years past and xeroxing the sigs on new petitions?

How is is relevant if it doesn't? There are more than one type of voter fraud...voter ID won't solve them all.

Grant · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
Are you referring to the Brennan Center comprehensive study of voter fraud?

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/The Truth About Voter Fraud.pdf

It is the most comprehensive and thorough study done of the subject of voter fraud in the USA in modern times.

Was this link posted earlier?

Grant · Nov 3, 2014

Re: Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans

haymarket said:
In my community it works like this:

you show up at city hall to the clerk and tell them you want to register to vote
you present them with some form of legal ID
you fill out the application papers
you provide them with a signature of your name
the clerk then performs their due diligence as part of their legal responsibility to the state and community
they then place the copy in the voters book which goes to your precinct on election day
when I show up to vote I provide my signature on a form they give me
a clerk compares my signature to the book
if there is a discrepancy they can ask me for other ID
when they are satisfied I am who I say I am and I match the registration
I then vote

Do you seriously believe this is all about you?

Sen. Landrieu's remarks on race anger Republicans[W:466]

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