Seems German coalition talks resulted in a government

[Schrott]

indeed!

he may have been a clever foreign politician, but that wasn´t sooo nice for everybody who wasn´t Prussian (ask the Austrians, Hannoveranians, Rhinelanders and my fellow Westphalians)

if you are social democrat or democrat at all - run!

and he was also an arrogant Kavalleuer (aristokrat im my home dialect) and defender of the class system

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
He was rather well educated, had a brilliant mind, driven in his personel believe to unify Germany. One of my ancestor was one of the head negotiators for the Hanse. I have his diaries, in which he recorded and commented the negotiations.
We should never fall into the trap, to pull a person out of historical Contance. Lets not forget our social system goes back to what Bismarck initiated, from schools, retirement to health. Was he a Aristocrat through and through, well yes, but that was the time.

 

[Schrott]

Only thing one can probably say of him with some reliability is that he would not have allowed Germany to embroil herself in something as stupid as WWI.

But by the time that came about, the idiot Kaiser had long since fired him.

With Bismarck no WWI, that is correct.

 

[Juin]

Bismarck would have formed a Russo-German Axis and built a gas delivery pipeline from Russia to Germany via the Baltic.

Exactly what Schroeder, Merkel did. Business is business

He would have babbled about peace while he hid behind the Russians muscling Ukraine out of their lands while moving in German industrialists, agronomists and technocrats to share the spoils.

Politics is a dirty game. Ukraine is also assembling international powers to muscle Russia.

Now however and going forward with Baerbock's Greens and the Free Democrats, Bismarck, the Russia Huging SPD led now by Scholz, Putin and Xi are in for a good caning.

Der Green Frau!

 

[german hick]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
He was rather well educated, had a brilliant mind, driven in his personel believe to unify Germany. One of my ancestor was one of the head negotiators for the Hanse. I have his diaries, in which he recorded and commented the negotiations.
We should never fall into the trap, to pull a person out of historical Contance. Lets not forget our social system goes back to what Bismarck initiated, from schools, retirement to health. Was he a Aristocrat through and through, well yes, but that was the time.

let us agree he is a disputible man of his time and no golden hero

to be fair: all the social legislation he did, he did not do because of humanism - he did it to fight the social democrats (in german I would say "take the wind away from their sails" , don´t know if that works in English )

that there wount be a WW1 with him in office is true. But quite sure there wount have been one if he had not joined politics, because there wount have been a united Germany

may be with me it´s a little bit local patriotism that I don´t like him. He stole the north his identity. When the prussian civil servants came to Westphalia, for example speaking platt was forbidden in schools and looked down at in public etc

 

[Schrott]

let us agree he is a disputible man of his time and no golden hero

to be fair: all the social legislation he did, he did not do because of humanism - he did it to fight the social democrats (in german I would say "take the wind away from their sails" , don´t know if that works in English )

that there wount be a WW1 with him in office is true. But quite sure there wount have been one if he had not joined politics, because there wount have been a united Germany

may be with me it´s a little bit local patriotism that I don´t like him. He stole the north his identity. When the prussian civil servants came to Westphalia, for example speaking platt was forbidden in schools and looked down at in public etc

He did do his social programs for 2 reasons,
1. He understood, his wrightings are available, that if Germany ever wants to amount to anything and not being a backwater for ever, it needed a good educated and socialy protected labour class.
2. Yes he was worried about the unrest of the labour class and that early socialism could thrown a wrench into the spokes of his freshly unified Germany.
Lets not forget, against the will of England, France and Russia. For that he had to convince the German States to cut their alliances with those powers and buy into the German Unified State.
Luckily he took those social laws rather serious, they were no tokens, to satisfy the rebellios.

The quality of his laws, show that he was serious. Just look at our Health Insurance System, its called The Bismarck System. Its just brilliant, outlasted 2 World Wars and their complete colaps of society. Its basicaly still the same. Because of Bismarck Germany had a retirement system for the labour class, decades before any other industrialized country had one, unemployment and the systems still exist.

Schools, before Bismarck many of the small German states had already understood, that mandatory schooling was a must in the age of industrial revelution.
Bismarck extend those systems, unified them, High German had become the official language, not French, not English not a local dialect. It was a natural progression, that schools had to teach in High German, a no brainer.
If you want to built a unified country it has to have a language and not 20 or 40. If I talk to you in Kasselaenerish you will not understand me, same for Nord Frisisch or Bayrisch.
Did that hurt local feelings, sure, minor affair.

I am rather surprised how little you know about the man, his time and the history of that time.

 

[Chagos]

let us agree he is a disputible man of his time and no golden hero

to be fair: all the social legislation he did, he did not do because of humanism - he did it to fight the social democrats (in german I would say "take the wind away from their sails" , don´t know if that works in English )

that there wount be a WW1 with him in office is true. But quite sure there wount have been one if he had not joined politics, because there wount have been a united Germany

may be with me it´s a little bit local patriotism that I don´t like him. He stole the north his identity. When the prussian civil servants came to Westphalia, for example speaking platt was forbidden in schools and looked down at in public etc

Well, if he hadn't united Germany, you Westphalian peasants would still be eating your own totally infertile soil.

Relax, I'm kidding you.

Westphalia has quite nice spots.

Pity one has to be totally drunk to appreciate them.

 

[Chagos]

Well, at least this thread is beginning to show some intelligent posts, even if derailment was necessary for that to arise.

 

[german hick]

He did do his social programs for 2 reasons,
1. He understood, his wrightings are available, that if Germany ever wants to amount to anything and not being a backwater for ever, it needed a good educated and socialy protected labour class.
2. Yes he was worried about the unrest of the labour class and that early socialism could thrown a wrench into the spokes of his freshly unified Germany.
Lets not forget, against the will of England, France and Russia. For that he had to convince the German States to cut their alliances with those powers and buy into the German Unified State.
Luckily he took those social laws rather serious, they were no tokens, to satisfy the rebellios.

The quality of his laws, show that he was serious. Just look at our Health Insurance System, its called The Bismarck System. Its just brilliant, outlasted 2 World Wars and their complete colaps of society. Its basicaly still the same. Because of Bismarck Germany had a retirement system for the labour class, decades before any other industrialized country had one, unemployment and the systems still exist.

Schools, before Bismarck many of the small German states had already understood, that mandatory schooling was a must in the age of industrial revelution.
Bismarck extend those systems, unified them, High German had become the official language, not French, not English not a local dialect. It was a natural progression, that schools had to teach in High German, a no brainer.
If you want to built a unified country it has to have a language and not 20 or 40. If I talk to you in Kasselaenerish you will not understand me, same for Nord Frisisch or Bayrisch.
Did that hurt local feelings, sure, minor affair.

I am rather surprised how little you know about the man, his time and the history of that time.

may be I´m not so uninforned as you think. May be I´m just stubborn on this. - that´s the biggest concession you will get from me

 

[german hick]

Well, if he hadn't united Germany, you Westphalian peasants would still be eating your own totally infertile soil.

Relax, I'm kidding you.

Westphalia has quite nice spots.

Pity one has to be totally drunk to appreciate them.

so tell me please: what´s the pity with beeing drunk? I don´t get your point.

 

[Chagos]

may be I´m not so uninforned as you think. May be I´m just stubborn on this. - that´s the biggest concession you will get from me

ALL Westphalians are known for that.

 

[Chagos]

so tell me please: what´s the pity with beeing drunk? I don´t get your point.

Now that you've brought it up, I guess there IS some advantage to not seeing Westphalia clearly.

 

[german hick]

ALL Westphalians are known for that.

Now that you've brought it up, I guess there IS some advantage to not seeing Westphalia clearly.

Now you made me really sad. I´m going to bed now crying. How can the world not appreciate this wonderful piece of land!!!

 

[Chagos]

Now you made me really sad. I´m going to bed now crying. How can the world not appreciate this wonderful piece of land!!!

Have a big drink, mein Freund, and you'll be all right.

 

[Juin]

indeed!

he may have been a clever foreign politician, but that wasn´t sooo nice for everybody who wasn´t Prussian (ask the Austrians, Hannoveranians, Rhinelanders and my fellow Westphalians)

if you are social democrat or democrat at all - run!

and he was also an arrogant Kavalleuer (aristokrat im my home dialect) and defender of the class system

Seems to me like you being harsh on Otto. He did manage to cobble together the modern Germany from the then bits and pieces. But maybe I like big Otto because I am far away from him in spatial distance, as well as time. Kind of like Freddy Krueger. An ok guy as long he stays on screen. But definitely not as a real life neighbour. I don't think Uncle Otto had any international friends. Just permanent interests.

Nevertheless Uncle Otto was a genius. He managed to always give any hostile military alliance being put together the slip. A rare German talent. Maybe an even greater genius than Frederick the Great. If I recall right, Frederick- at a certain low moment, a moment thankfully from which he managed to pull through, else history would not recall him as Great- managed, with that most Prussian of talents, to get himself in a noose crafted by Russians and Austrians, from which he extricated himself only with difficulty.

Uncle Otto always beat the noose dangled by foreign military alliances

 

[joluoto]

Seems to me like you being harsh on Otto. He did manage to cobble together the modern Germany from the then bits and pieces. But maybe I like big Otto because I am far away from him in spatial distance, as well as time. Kind of like Freddy Krueger. An ok guy as long he stays on screen. But definitely not as a real life neighbour. I don't think Uncle Otto had any international friends. Just permanent interests.

Nevertheless Uncle Otto was a genius. He managed to always give any hostile military alliance being put together the slip. A rare German talent. Maybe an even greater genius than Frederick the Great. If I recall right, Frederick- at a certain low moment, a moment thankfully from which he managed to pull through, else history would not recall him as Great- managed, with that most Prussian of talents, to get himself in a noose crafted by Russians and Austrians, from which he extricated himself only with difficulty.

Uncle Otto always beat the noose dangled by foreign military alliances

Bismarck had created a Prussian empire, but was actually very unhappy with how un-Prussian it risked becoming. One of the reason he was so desperate to make sure Austria-Hungary didn't fall apart was because if it did the Austrians would apply to join Germany, and the fools in the Reichstag would allow it.

 

[Chagos]

The unquenchable desire for a united Germany came very much from the people while an assortment of other powers, in conjunction with petty German magnates, continually opposed it.

But said desire completely contravened what Bismarck envisaged and, later on, achieved. Namely a Prussian supremacy that dominated the whole project by suppressing local jingoism that might have found alignment in a common parliamentary system of governance. Which is what the revolutionaries of 1848 actually pursued, but to no avail.

Bismarck was and always remained a monarchist who totally abhorred any form of parliamentarism.

Nevertheless it was what he managed to create in 1871 that was to become the basis of German industrial power, second only to Britain and eventually overtaking even her.

Not in the form of democratic governance though that finally evolved with Weimar and would fail again by the shenanigans of the ever backward worshipers of authoritarianism.

Today's Germany was actually gifted with democracy by the Western Allies, even if the latter had to shove it down its throat with baseball and cricket bats.

That is the inherent weakness of democracy if one hasn't cooked it up by oneself and, apart from the shortcomings of democracy in general anyway, always leaves room for those not understanding it to whittle away at it.

"I'm all right so **** you Jack" may not be an attitude held by a majority of today's Germans, but there are and always have been those around whose understanding of societal solidarity is about as cogent as the concept of farming pineapples in Antarctica.

 

[Tangmo]

Exactly what Schroeder, Merkel did. Business is business
Politics is a dirty game. Ukraine is also assembling international powers to muscle Russia.
Der Green Frau!

Throughout Merkel's 16 years and during the past four years of the GroKo especially Kremlin Mafia gained what's called State Capture of the Berlin elites of political economy and industry. Putin purchased Schroederovsky in full when with only hours remaining as chancellor he signed on to Nord Stream to then become chairman of it in St. Petersburg. Putin then wooed Schroederovsky's successor Merkel the former East German DDR girl into being his BFF in Europe itself.

Scholz is the under the radar opposite of Merkel who now wears the mantle of the SPD historical record of being Russia Huggers. Scholz got elected by donning Merkel's political wardrobe but he also got both Baerbock and Lindner who will give him well deserved migraines on foreign policy and global security. What the Bison Biden is missing in this is that Germany is now as much a Russia ally as it is a founder of NATO. The Russo-Germany Pipeline of Continental Blackmail is the final and conclusive proof of Germany attaining Bismarck's imperative of a Russo-German Axis over Europe. Bismarck's long sought after Russo-German Pax Europa.


State Capture:
State capture refers to “a situation where powerful individuals, institutions, companies or groups within or outside a country use corruption to shape a nation’s policies, legal environment and economy to benefit their own private interests” (Transparency International Plain Language Guide, 2009). It is one of the most pervasive forms of corruption.

https://www.transparency.org/files/content/corruptionqas/State_capture_an_overview_2014.pdf

Putin's Germany.

 

[Juin]

Throughout Merkel's 16 years and during the past four years of the GroKo especially Kremlin Mafia gained what's called State Capture of the Berlin elites of political economy and industry. Putin purchased Schroederovsky in full when with only hours remaining as chancellor he signed on to Nord Stream to then become chairman of it in St. Petersburg. Putin then wooed Schroederovsky's successor Merkel the former East German DDR girl into being his BFF in Europe itself.

Scholz is the under the radar opposite of Merkel who now wears the mantle of the SPD historical record of being Russia Huggers. Scholz got elected by donning Merkel's political wardrobe but he also got both Baerbock and Lindner who will give him well deserved migraines on foreign policy and global security. What the Bison Biden is missing in this is that Germany is now as much a Russia ally as it is a founder of NATO. The Russo-Germany Pipeline of Continental Blackmail is the final and conclusive proof of Germany attaining Bismarck's imperative of a Russo-German Axis over Europe. Bismarck's long sought after Russo-German Pax Europa.

The present German leadership is a three headed hydra. Now I imagine you are assuming that they have not come to some kind of agreement on broad outlines on Nord Stream 2? If they postponed decision on that then it will be a wide ride.

My take is that the Bundesgazregulator handed the incoming three headed hydra a poisoned chalice. Best situation for this traffic light coalition would have been for Nord Stream 2 already kicked upstairs to European Commission. Then the Green Frau and Herr Christian Wolfgang Lindner could just throw up their hands and tell the volk that it was out of their hands. That Nord Stream 2 had already escaped the barn. And that it could not be killed. Plus, it will be a cold winter if the pipeline that delivers the gas is killled.

I think Germany is in a fix. Or maybe not. I still see no downside to Germany from Nord Stream 2. Ukraine has everything to gain from a dead Nord Stream 2, and Germany everything to lose.

 

[Chagos]

..........and the moon is still far from full

 

[Tangmo]

The present German leadership is a three headed hydra. Now I imagine you are assuming that they have not come to some kind of agreement on broad outlines on Nord Stream 2? If they postponed decision on that then it will be a wide ride.

My take is that the Bundesgazregulator handed the incoming three headed hydra a poisoned chalice. Best situation for this traffic light coalition would have been for Nord Stream 2 already kicked upstairs to European Commission. Then the Green Frau and Herr Christian Wolfgang Lindner could just throw up their hands and tell the volk that it was out of their hands. That Nord Stream 2 had already escaped the barn. And that it could not be killed. Plus, it will be a cold winter if the pipeline that delivers the gas is killled.

I think Germany is in a fix. Or maybe not. I still see no downside to Germany from Nord Stream 2. Ukraine has everything to gain from a dead Nord Stream 2, and Germany everything to lose.

You're constantly trying to read the minds of Baerbock and Lindner separately while the two have much in common that they don't share with Scholz. Yet your take is, well, your take, which has a strong focus if not compulsion for Baerbock. It's obvious Putin fears Baerbock more than he fears any other official in the new government or, indeed, in all of Germany and likely all of Europe.

Your posts want to read the mind to us of Annalena Baerbock while you include a thread on her that pronounces her an already failed foreign minister. So methinks you're trying much too hard to be a Russian novelist penetrating the mind of your main character of your own creation as she marches to her self inflicted demise. Accordingly, you might want to give it a rest until Baerbock and the Ampere Coalition have to make a decision on something, or at least on a couple of things, to include of course pertaining to NS2. You're just way out ahead of yourself and everyone else too in your pseudo psychological projections.

 

[Tangmo]

Well, at least this thread is beginning to show some intelligent posts, even if derailment was necessary for that to arise.

Scholz gives his first book report to the Bundestag. Greens and Free Democrats have given Scholz a list of 100 books to read during 2022. Updated lists will follow in subsequent years.

 

[Chagos]

I'm taking a "wait and see" stance on Baerbock, since she hasn't been all that impressive (mildly put) in her conduct during the election campaign and even before that.

But I'd take the same stance if she had been, campaigning and governing being two totally different sides of any coin.

There's an old saying I remember from my years in Germany by which "those on whom god bestows responsibilities he also blesses with intelligence".

A common and cynical re-formulation having been "..........................he also robs of any intelligence".

I hope for the former.

Lindner, OTH, is a proven and totally unprincipled jerk who, in the historical tradition of his whole party, will hang his coat in any way the wind blows most favourably. Let public noise over the inevitable hardships faced in this current fairy-tale scenario of achieving energy autonomy by relying solely on renewables reach sufficient crescendo, and he'll fall into the conservative stance so fast that he'll make the CDU/CSU look like choirboys in comparison.

The only upside being that in the current scenario of strength by votes, breaking up the coalition to then run to the conservatives in the hypocritical fashion that has always been the habit of his whole party, will cost him his and his party's position in gubmint.

But that is current, let opinion polls at any time in the next four years favour the CDU/CSU again to the point that a majority might be achieved by coalescing with the unprincipled Free Democrats, just watch him and his whole bunch of habitual turncoats.

The weakness of this coalition is neither possible controversy between Greens and the SPD nor the silly assumption of Scholz lacking leadership qualities, it's the third party that has always found betrayal to be an acceptable tool of politics if that serves its interests.

 

[Tangmo]

Free Democrats have joined with several EU governing parties to ditch the "One China" policy as part of the Biden led global campaign to elevate Taiwan and degrade the CCP DictatorTyrants in Beijing. Taiwan for instance was invited by Biden to his just concluded Democracy convention attended by 100 or so democratic governments of the world.

SecDef Austin for the first time invited Taiwan to the semiannual Rim of the Pacific international naval-air exercises while he disinvited Beijing. Rim of the Pacific is a weeks long exercise of two dozen US allied or strategic partner militaries off Hawaii and southern California that involves upward of 40+ ships and typically 200 aircraft. Beijing was first invited by Pentagon in 2014 and is now disinvited effective 2022. The exercises that include Germany as a founding participant focus on interoperability and have both participant and observer nations so this is a significant breakthrough for Taiwan, ie, to become a participant without having first been an observer. And for Taiwan to participate period.

Free Democrats want a moratorium on NS2 pending a formal treaty agreement with the Kremlin Mafia establishing the terms of the pipeline operation. FDP leader Christian Lindner wants German (and European Commission) certification of the pipeline only if the security and continuation of gas flows via Ukraine are guaranteed by Moscow. FDP becoming included in the governing coalition in Berlin and advocating such a high bar as a formal treaty or no pipeline certification likely pushed Putin off the deep end to begin his always intended blackmail schemes in the present time frame and circumstance rather than later, ie, after certification and the inauguration of gas flow operations.

Lindner is after all Finance Minister in the Ampere Coalition which is as we know the position Scholz held in the now evicted GroKo government of the Russia Huggers & Supplicants Merkel-Scholz. NS2 certification predicated on an FDP demanded formal treaty that includes preserving Ukraine and preventing Kremlin Mafia blackmail is a tough order for Moscow to accept, not to mention the considerable further delay in the already very past schedule pipeline that treaty negotiations would require.

Scholz of course hasn't ever made audible noises for the pipeline to comply with the EU 2019 Gas Directive nor has Scholz come forward to argue Russian compliance with the anti-monopoly Third Energy Package of the EU Commission that dates back to 2012. After all, the SPD Russia Huggers Schroederovsky and Scholz go back a long way together. Indeed the chased out former Chancellor Schroederovsky was in the VIP gallery of the Bundestag to witness the formal elevation of his bud Scholz as Bundeskanzler.

 

[Tangmo]

Meet Frick 'n Frack.

SPD former chancellor Gerhard Schroederovsky chairman of the Gazprom owned Nord Stream AG incorporated in Switzerland and director of Rosneft gives pointers to his eventual fellow and present chancellor Olaf Scholz during a 2016 Hamburg conference on Chinese investment and ownership of Germany.

 

[Juin]

The present German leadership is a three headed hydra. Now I imagine you are assuming that they have not come to some kind of agreement on broad outlines on Nord Stream 2? If they postponed decision on that then it will be a wide ride.

You're constantly trying to read the minds of Baerbock and Lindner separately while the two have much in common that they don't share with Scholz. Yet your take is, well, your take, which has a strong focus if not compulsion for Baerbock.

I am not trying to read Baerbock's mind at all. I am pointing out what is true for all politicians when they go from the opposition bench to the executive seat. The beauty of the opposition bench is that when one is on that seat one can formulate all kinds of propositions without having to answer for the consequences.

It's obvious Putin fears Baerbock more than he fears any other official in the new government or, indeed, in all of Germany and likely all of Europe.

Now you are projecting how you would like Putin to be on the Putin in Moscow. You are forgetting that the Green Frau is not the Bundeskanzler. She is one of a three headed hydra. And not the most powerful head of the trio even. And this traffic traffic coalition does have the advantage of being from same side of the political divide. The coalition appears to stradle the divide, a bit of the right and a bit of the left.

I normally would predict that this traffic light coalition has a short life. But I will not venture that far. I suspect they did not avoid the elephant in the room- Russian gas- before signing up. If they chosed to punt the ball on Nord Stream 2 and Putin that would amaze me. That would be most unGerman. I suspect that they arrived on a common policy towards Russia and Putin. So for the moment I will give that hydra a long life.

Your posts want to read the mind to us of Annalena Baerbock while you include a thread on her that pronounces her an already failed foreign minister.

Pronounce the Green Frau a failed Foreign Minister this soon? That will be too premature. And is more like your thing to declare Putin a failed President. I will say that the Green Frau has some challenges ahead. Especially given that the dictator has been playing his hand very well.

The Green Frau's Foreign Policy still has to procure more gas and at lower prices. Unless that is not what the Germans expect of her. I wont presume to speak for what Mr Deutsch expects of the Green Frau, but it will astonish me if Herr Deutsch expects less gas, higher prices from the Green Frau.

In the long run it is doable. But in the short term the dictator has the better hand.

So methinks you're trying much too hard to be a Russian novelist penetrating the mind of your main character of your own creation as she marches to her self inflicted demise.

Herr Putin is a good main character. The most fantastic product that has emerged in Europe in centuries. He is the Fu Manchu of Europe. Without rival. Let us call him Dr Putin and borrow from the immortal words of author Sax Rohmer:

"Imagine a person, of medium height, lean and feline, high shouldered, with a brow like Shakespeare and a face like Satan... invest him with all the cruel cunning of an entire Slavic race, accumulated in one giant intellect, with all the resorouurces of science past and present... Imagine that awful being and being, and you have a mental picture of Dr Putin, the Slavic Peril incarnate in one man. - The Insidious Dr Putin.


You have to go far back in European history to come up with a villain on the level of Putin. That will be Otto von Bismark.


Below is Sax Rohmer's actual words

Imagine a person, tall, lean and feline, high-shouldered, with a brow like Shakespeare and a face like Satan, ...Invest him with all the cruel cunning of an entire Eastern race, accumulated in one giant intellect, with all the resources of science past and present ...Imagine that awful being, and you have a mental picture of Dr. Fu-Manchu, the Yellow Peril incarnate in one man.

—The Insidious Dr. Fu-Manchu