Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures

[bhkad]

Then if you're so sure it's only the Pal's fault why does this forum need a "Middle East" section? To debate about it? Or maybe they did not dare calling it "bash the Pals here"?

I can't force you to debate, but if you only want to repeat again and again "it's only the Pal's fault" instead of answering to de Soto's document, please do not answer.

As for him, having been a diplomat for 25 years and having been chosen by Kofi Annan gives him more credit than you or me, whatever you say.

 

[cherokee]

First you say it is "bullshit propaganda", then you explain why it is true. Aside from that, a correction is in order:

They're not Israeli cities, they are illegal settlements on Palestinian land!

Are you talking about the land that was lost to Israel in the 6 day War?

Tell me something billo is launching rockets on to NON-military targets like homes, markets and schools fall under your "illegal" activities? How about suicide bombings on buses, cafes restaurants, are those illegal activities as well?

 

[Tashah]

They're not Israeli cities, they are illegal settlements on Palestinian land!

Tel Aviv is certainly an Israeli city and was founded in 1909.

Beyond that Billo, your incessant circumlocutions are now a moot point. Palestine itself has now been partitioned... by Palestinians. Nevertheless, I have high confidence that you will once again bastardize facts and blame Israel for this dramatic development.

By the way Billo. You lost a wager to me. Where is your penance?

 

[Gardener]

WhatI find most amusing is the fact that Mr.DeSoto whines about Israel setting "unacheivable preconditions", when these preconditions are to commit to non violence and recognize Israel.

Evidently, this moron thinks it unrealistic to require that genocidal maniacs renounce any part of their agenda. He also blames the international community for its lack of support for Hamas, thus effectively establishing that terrorism is the status quo.


I would think any reasonably intelligent person would note the obvious failings of Mr DeSoto's opinions. Sure, those who do not think can simply offer somesort of fallacious appeal to authority by trying to claim that if DeSoto offers his opinion, such opinions actually establish some sort of factual basis from which to operate, but really now -- what, exactly is so unreasonable about expecting these things to desist in their murderous ways and dispense with their genocidal ambitions?

 

[PeteEU]

WhatI find most amusing is the fact that Mr.DeSoto whines about Israel setting "unacheivable preconditions", when these preconditions are to commit to non violence and recognize Israel.

Isreal has other "pre conditions" too, that they refuse to debate. Removing of settlements, repatriation of Palestinians, the wall, East Jeruseleam and other issues... depending on the mood they are in and who is talking to the cameras (and what cameras). Dont think for a second that Isreal is some sort of "angel" in setting pre conditions to a peace.

While I agree that at a minimum the Palestinians should agree to stop of violence and acceptance of Isreal, but also as a minimum Isreal should stop thier attacks and aparthied like policies across the west bank. Something for something. But I dont see Isreal doing this as it would piss off too many settlers and hardliners.

On top of that no subject should be "non debateable", not even East Jeruselam or repatriation of refugees from the 1948 war. It might not be realistic, but that does not mean that it cant be debated and be part of the overall deal.

 

[Vader]

What a useful post :roll:

If you disagree, don't just say "it's the Pal's fault", QUOTE HIS DOCUMENT AND TELL ME WHERE HE IS WRONG! Why don't you answer to Mr de Soto condemns Israel for setting unachievable preconditions for talks and the Palestinians for their violence. Western-led peace negotiations have become largely irrelevant, he says.

Mr de Soto is a Peruvian diplomat who worked for the UN for 25 years in El Salvador, Cyprus and Western Sahara. He says:

· The international boycott of the Palestinians, introduced after Hamas won elections last year, was "at best extremely short-sighted" and had "devastating consequences" for the Palestinian people

· Israel has adopted an "essentially rejectionist" stance towards the Palestinians

· The Quartet of Middle East negotiators - the US, the EU, Russia and the UN - has become a "side-show"

·The Palestinian record of stopping violence against Israel is "patchy at best, reprehensible at worst"

Why do you stay one sided?

I am tired of the Palestinians causing a fight and them claiming to be the vitcim. Hamas is a terrosit group that fixed an election -- there is no denying this fact.

Hamas is the largest obstical to peace in the Palestine/Israel conflict. Wake up and take notice. The dumb-istinians blame Israel for their lot in life. Israel was forced into a fight in 1967 and they defeated Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

The palestinains are people who were abandoned by Egypt, Jordan, or Syria. Now they are led by a group of terrorists who are whining about their situation while simultaniously straping explosives to their children in the name off allah. They say "give us back our land" ... well you know what ... THE LAND WAS NEVER THEIRS!!! It belonged to the Jews 2000 years ago until it was stolen by the Romans and sold off and divided into what would later be known as Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. In 1967 it was LOST IN A WAR and it isn't going to be given back.

It's high time you and your buddies in Hamas figured out that Israel is not going to give up territory to a bunch of terrorists (who never owned it in the first place) who refuse to make peace.

:doh

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Vader:
I am tired of the Palestinians causing a fight and them claiming to be the vitcim. Hamas is a terrosit group that fixed an election -- there is no denying this fact.

Hamas is the largest obstical to peace in the Palestine/Israel conflict. Wake up and take notice. The dumb-istinians blame Israel for their lot in life. Israel was forced into a fight in 1967 and they defeated Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

The palestinains are people who were abandoned by Egypt, Jordan, or Syria. Now they are led by a group of terrorists who are whining about their situation while simultaniously straping explosives to their children in the name off allah. They say "give us back our land" ... well you know what ... THE LAND WAS NEVER THEIRS!!! It belonged to the Jews 2000 years ago until it was stolen by the Romans and sold off and divided into what would later be known as Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. In 1967 it was LOST IN A WAR and it isn't going to be given back.

It's high time you and your buddies in Hamas figured out that Israel is not going to give up territory to a bunch of terrorists (who never owned it in the first place) who refuse to make peace.

Listen Buckwheat, it is not your place or anyone else to decide who and what is going to be the government in a sovereign nation. So back off!

Furthermore, it is against International Law to hold on to territory captured during a time of war. That is why Israel is in violation of at least 33 UN resolutions. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Because the coffee really stinks. Why? Because the coffee is being made by the Israelis. Their treatment of the Palestinians is approaching the treatment they themselves received by the Nazis. There not there yet, but they are heading in that direction and I find it disgusting. I also find it disgusting for anyone to look the other way without finding out for themselves.

Your post was completely partisan and without merit.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Listen Buckwheat, it is not your place or anyone else to decide who and what is going to be the government in a sovereign nation. So back off!

That's fine and dandy but it is our place to give funding and aid to whomever we want and to deny that aid to those peoples who choose war and terror over peace and reconciliation. If the Palestinians had not elected Hamas but rather a moderate and liberal party committed to the two state solution then I would be one of their strongest supporters and not only support giving them aid but increasing it ten fold but they chose poorly and only have themselves to blame.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus:
That's fine and dandy but it is our place to give funding and aid to whomever we want and to deny that aid to those peoples who choose war and terror over peace and reconciliation. If the Palestinians had not elected Hamas but rather a moderate and liberal party committed to the two state solution then I would be one of their strongest supporters and not only support giving them aid but increasing it ten fold but they chose poorly and only have themselves to blame.

Although I hate the fact we used it as a bargaining chip, I cannot argue against the point we had every right to do so.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Although I hate the fact we used it as a bargaining chip, I cannot argue against the point we had every right to do so.

You hate the fact that we aren't using tax payer money to finance a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of their neighbor?

 

[Tashah]

Isreal has other "pre conditions" too, that they refuse to debate. Removing of settlements, repatriation of Palestinians, the wall, East Jeruseleam and other issues... depending on the mood they are in and who is talking to the cameras (and what cameras). Dont think for a second that Isreal is some sort of "angel" in setting pre conditions to a peace.

While I agree that at a minimum the Palestinians should agree to stop of violence and acceptance of Isreal, but also as a minimum Isreal should stop thier attacks and aparthied like policies across the west bank. Something for something. But I dont see Isreal doing this as it would piss off too many settlers and hardliners.

On top of that no subject should be "non debateable", not even East Jeruselam or repatriation of refugees from the 1948 war. It might not be realistic, but that does not mean that it cant be debated and be part of the overall deal.

The Roadmap for Peace is dead. Palestine has now partitioned itsef. I don't think it is possible to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Israel has stated that it will support the new Abbas government in Ramallah. What happens next is anyone's guess.

 

[PeteEU]

The Roadmap for Peace is dead. Palestine has now partitioned itsef. I don't think it is possible to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Israel has stated that it will support the new Abbas government in Ramallah. What happens next is anyone's guess.

I agree it dead, but that does not mean that everything does not have to be discussed and found a solution on. Not finding a solution or deal on almost all the issues I mentioned and loads of others, will lead to more conflict and hardship for all sides. But you are right, what happens next is anyone's guess, but it also depends quite a bit on what Isreal does, just as it depends on what the Palestinians do.

 

[Vader]

Oh, and you've nothing to answer to de Soto's document? You may say I don't know a sh!t about Palestine/Israel, you would not be wrong, but HE is a specialist! And he blames not only the Pals but also Israel, the USA and Europe!

What you must remember about Soto is that he is writing from HIS prospective and that most of that document is HIS OPINIONS. As a result, his alleged "secret" UN memo is little more than speculation on his part.

The section of his report that spoke on the freezing of Hamas' assets focused only on the effect of that action on the Palestinian people; not on the very justifiable reasons for the act itself.

Overall, the document reeks of neo-liberal propaganda, which I believe was designed to provide congress with leverage it could use to force the Bush administration to withdraw from Iraq.

These are my thoughts on the aforementioned memo.

:shock:

 

[Vader]

Listen Buckwheat, it is not your place or anyone else to decide who and what is going to be the government in a sovereign nation. So back off!

Furthermore, it is against International Law to hold on to territory captured during a time of war. That is why Israel is in violation of at least 33 UN resolutions. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Because the coffee really stinks. Why? Because the coffee is being made by the Israelis. Their treatment of the Palestinians is approaching the treatment they themselves received by the Nazis. There not there yet, but they are heading in that direction and I find it disgusting. I also find it disgusting for anyone to look the other way without finding out for themselves.

Your post was completely partisan and without merit.

Billo,

First of all .... take a Valium and shaddap!!!! :mrgreen:

Perhaps you and your liberal friends never considered that fact that the Palestinians do not follow resolutions set by the UN either. In fact, the Palestinians are illegally holding a non-combatant journalist (who they have threatend to kil if they don't get their way) and have so far failed to follow the numerous requests of THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT to release him (Alan Johnston).

Don't you dare lecture me on the UN while you advocate giving special privileges to a terrorist group. The Palestinians are a group of people abandoned by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan during the 6 day war of 1967.

The sad truth is that Egypt is 10000000000000000% responsible for what befell the people they and their terrorist allies left behind in Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank after they got their asses handed to them in a fight that THEY THEMSELVES INSTIGATED.

You liberal nutballs are perfectly willing to look passed the terrorist activities of your good friends in Palestine just to spite the Israelis and the republicans.

Shame on you.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Vader:
Billo,

First of all .... take a Valium and shaddap!!!!

Perhaps you and your liberal friends never considered that fact that the Palestinians do not follow resolutions set by the UN either. In fact, the Palestinians are illegally holding a non-combatant journalist (who they have threatend to kil if they don't get their way) and have so far failed to follow the numerous requests of THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT to release him (Alan Johnston).

Don't you dare lecture me on the UN while you advocate giving special privileges to a terrorist group. The Palestinians are a group of people abandoned by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan during the 6 day war of 1967.

The sad truth is that Egypt is 10000000000000000% responsible for what befell the people they and their terrorist allies left behind in Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank after they got their asses handed to them in a fight that THEY THEMSELVES INSTIGATED.

You liberal nutballs are perfectly willing to look passed the terrorist activities of your good friends in Palestine just to spite the Israelis and the republicans.

Shame on you.

Listen V-dog,

Don't be jumpin' to conclusions on my watch!

I didn't know anything about ole Alan, and now that I do, I'm against it.

As for Egypt, by saying they are 100% responsible is like saying Israel hasn't done anything wrong. Which is absurd!

 

[BudLizard101]

Listen V-dog,

Don't be jumpin' to conclusions on my watch!

I didn't know anything about ole Alan, and now that I do, I'm against it.

As for Egypt, by saying they are 100% responsible is like saying Israel hasn't done anything wrong. Which is absurd!

How the hell do you not know about Alan?
You claim to know pretty much everything else in the ME but you missed out on something that you can't blame Israel for? :doh

 

[akyron]

absurd!

Global vigil planned for Johnston

"The BBC and media organisations from around the world will mark abducted reporter Alan Johnston's 100th day in captivity tomorrow with vigils and a demonstration in Paris.
Johnston, the BBC's Gaza correspondent, was abducted by armed men in Gaza City on March 12."

Hamas sets BBC reporter deadline


"If they do not meet these demands there will be no release of this prisoner, but if things get worse we will get closer to God by killing this journalist."

Just a little more information.....

 

[PeteEU]

In fact, the Palestinians are illegally holding a non-combatant journalist (who they have threatend to kil if they don't get their way) and have so far failed to follow the numerous requests of THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT to release him (Alan Johnston).

So you are blaming all the palestinian people for the work of a bunch of criminals who just happen to snatch the wrong guy. Kidnapping is after all one of the most lucrative jobs in Gaza and Iraq these days.

Does that also mean that when a US soilder rapes and murders an Iraq, or a gangbanger does a drive by in LA and kills a tourist, then we can blame every single American and retaliate against random American we find on the street?

And not knowing about Alan Johnston is not that big a deal, espcially if you are American. After all he is a journalist from the BBC, so the right wing media will of course not cover it very much, and there are other more important stuff after all.. Paris Hilton in jail, random starlet getting a boob job or flashing a firecrouch

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So you are blaming all the palestinian people for the work of a bunch of criminals who just happen to snatch the wrong guy. Kidnapping is after all one of the most lucrative jobs in Gaza and Iraq these days.

No we blame the Palestinian people for electing a terrorist organization which promotes this kind of thing.

 

[BudLizard101]

So you are blaming all the palestinian people for the work of a bunch of criminals who just happen to snatch the wrong guy.

Uhh.. since when can you snatch a 'right' guy who hasn't done anything wrong? Seems to me like all they've been doing is snatching wrong guys. Maybe they should stop?

 

[PeteEU]

Uhh.. since when can you snatch a 'right' guy who hasn't done anything wrong? Seems to me like all they've been doing is snatching wrong guys. Maybe they should stop?

Of course they should stop. Just as gangbangers should stop, mafia and so on.

These criminals just happen to take the wrong guy and have gotten loads of media attention and political pressure. I doubt that this was the intention. Kidnappers who kidnap for some financial reason usualy dont want too much publicty. People who kidnap for political reasons do, but considering that there has barely been a peep from the kidnappers for 100 days then I kinda doubt that its political and add to that the 2 major factions have been putting on the pressure for his release and condeming his taking from day one.. the well.

 

[PeteEU]

No we blame the Palestinian people for electing a terrorist organization which promotes this kind of thing.

Hamas or Fatah "promoted" this unknown group to kidnap this journalist? So how many politically motivated kidnappings in Gaza or the West Bank do you know off?

 

[Vader]

Listen V-dog,

Don't be jumpin' to conclusions on my watch!

I didn't know anything about ole Alan, and now that I do, I'm against it.

As for Egypt, by saying they are 100% responsible is like saying Israel hasn't done anything wrong. Which is absurd!

Israel didn't instigate the 6 day war ... Egypt did ...

Israel didn't lie to Jordan and Syria ... Egypt did ....

Israel didn't abandon millions of people ... Egypt, Syria, and Jordan did.

I am not jumping to conclusions ... I am stating fact ... and you my liberal friend need to open your eyes and see it.

:mrgreen:

 

[Gardener]

Israel didn't instigate the 6 day war ... Egypt did ...

Israel didn't lie to Jordan and Syria ... Egypt did ....

Israel didn't abandon millions of people ... Egypt, Syria, and Jordan did.

I am not jumping to conclusions ... I am stating fact ... and you my liberal friend need to open your eyes and see it.

:mrgreen:

I agree with you on everything but that last bit.

Billo is a reactionary rather than a liberal. If he were a liberal, he would support the liberal democracy rather than those who kill women and call it "honor".

 

[Gardener]

Hamas or Fatah "promoted" this unknown group to kidnap this journalist? So how many politically motivated kidnappings in Gaza or the West Bank do you know off?

They promote a mindset that supports it, obviously.

Obvious to anybody capable of thought, anyway.