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Second World War And Axis Victory

Why did the Soviets lose nearly 3 times more tanks and assault guns than the Germans?

Because they weren't concerned about losses. They'd glady trade 3 of their tanks for 1 German tank. Just as the gladly traded 3 of their soldiers for 1 German.
 
I love you Oozle, but there's so much wrong in your statment!

First off, you are way undermining the advantage the Russians had in equipment when you off-hand say "1 tank". The T-34 was a revolution in tank design! It's the reason we don't have those boxy tanks anymore in any modern military. The T-34 was the first to integrate a sloped armor design;, one that was so effective, that at times opposing tank rounds would just deflect off of the slopes of the thick armor. And also keep in mind that the warfare on the eastern front, with the exclusion of the Battle of Stalingrad, was largely dominated by tanks warfare. Were the Russians to have a tank that was less revolutionary, I doubt very much they could of beaten the Germans, at the very least gone toe to toe against them. Unlike with the American Sherman tank where you needed that numbers advantage (usually a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage), a single T-34 could take down a single Panzer with no problem.

Well, that "sloping armor" and deflecting rounds was not even a desired effect, simply an unexpected bonus.

The Soviets used an inferior metal for the most part, and had to find a way to make thicker armor without increasing weight to much. Some engineers realized if you put the armor at an angle, you effectively increased it's "line of sight" thickness, without thickening it at all. The true effectiveness was not realized until after it hit the battlefield, and the accidental secondary improvement was realized.

Plus they realized early on (against the Japanese) that gasoline engines were not good in tanks. Their earlier model tanks (rivets and all) were disasters in 1938 against the Japanese.

But as revolutionary as the T-34 was, it was a pretty crude tank engineering wise. Engine, controls, communication, optics, all in all it really was a crappy tank. It had an armor system though that was ahead of everybody else by accident though, which is why so many sing it's praises.

And yea, the Soviet tactics were pretty crude. Remember, this is where the "Warsaw Pact" doctrine was developed, primarily a modification of the German Blitzkrieg with more coordination between elements and ginormous artillery and rocket barrages prior to the assault (primarily frontal). This is the same tactics and strategy that a great many nations followed for the next 60 years (and many still do to this day).

And in watching how other nations used these tactics, it is quickly realized that they were only really effective against other nations that followed the same tactics. Every time they were pitted against the more fluid and dynamic "Western Style" strategies and tactics, they got their asses handed to them.

Iran and Iraq fought each other for a decade, both primarily using Soviet style tactics, assaults being led by massive barrages of rockets and artillery as fighters duked it out in the sky, neither side making any real significant advances. US goes to war against Iraq twice (both times with allies using similar tactics) and take them apart within days.

All of the Middle East strikes against Israel several times, following Warsaw Pact doctrine, with Warsaw Pact equipment. Israel destroys them every time.

Now notice I am not saying their tactics were not good. They were awesome, for the Soviet Union. But they had a manpower advantage that no other country other then maybe China could have pulled off. And they allowed them to bring this entire weight to bear against the Germans, where the more fluid style might not have been as effective.

And I never claimed the M4 Sherman was a good tank. However, it was a quick and easy to produce and maintain tank, which allowed them to be produced in the numbers needed to overwhelm the Germans. But also remember that tanks are not designed to actually go up against tanks. Both the US and Western Allies and the Germans always tried to avoid fighting tank against tank if at all possible (unless the opposing tanks were vastly inferior or they had no choice). That was the role of the Tank Destroyer. TDs were the ones that went out hunting other tanks. However the armor and numbers of the T-34 allowed it to do rudimentary job as a tank destroyer. This was a role it was shoved into simply because they had no tank destroyers until late in the war (when the SU-85 then SU-100 came out).
 
Because they weren't concerned about losses. They'd glady trade 3 of their tanks for 1 German tank. Just as the gladly traded 3 of their soldiers for 1 German.

Your post still doesn't answer the question.
 
How do the numbers speak for themselves? You could have made them up for all I know. I want to see a link.

What is your point in all of this? To demonstrate how the Germans really were 'The Master Race'? They lost, and the Red Army destroyed the Wehrmacht. You can look that one up.

I'm looking forward to that link. "The numbers speak for themselves?"? Give me a frickin' break.

Wait, you didn't already know that the Soviets lost 2-3 times more men and material than the Germans? That's WW2 101 stuff.

Those losses didn't have as much to do with using tankers and pilots as cannon fodder as it does with German pilots and tankers being more skilled at their craft. Had things been equal, the Soviets would have lost the war by 1943.

The Soviets had the numbers, true, and Stalin managed to scare up some above average--not brilliant qr tacticians that survived his purges that knew how to make the numbers work in their favor.

Had Soviet equipment and operators of that equipment had been superior to the Germans, they would have scored more kills. But, that's not what happened. What happened was, the Soviets were able to absorb those losses more than the Germans. It's nothing to do with a ****ing master race. Stop looking at history through partisan glasses and you'll learn volumes of information.
 
Well, that "sloping armor" and deflecting rounds was not even a desired effect, simply an unexpected bonus.

The Soviets used an inferior metal for the most part, and had to find a way to make thicker armor without increasing weight to much. Some engineers realized if you put the armor at an angle, you effectively increased it's "line of sight" thickness, without thickening it at all. The true effectiveness was not realized until after it hit the battlefield, and the accidental secondary improvement was realized.

Plus they realized early on (against the Japanese) that gasoline engines were not good in tanks. Their earlier model tanks (rivets and all) were disasters in 1938 against the Japanese.

But as revolutionary as the T-34 was, it was a pretty crude tank engineering wise. Engine, controls, communication, optics, all in all it really was a crappy tank. It had an armor system though that was ahead of everybody else by accident though, which is why so many sing it's praises.

And yea, the Soviet tactics were pretty crude. Remember, this is where the "Warsaw Pact" doctrine was developed, primarily a modification of the German Blitzkrieg with more coordination between elements and ginormous artillery and rocket barrages prior to the assault (primarily frontal). This is the same tactics and strategy that a great many nations followed for the next 60 years (and many still do to this day).

And in watching how other nations used these tactics, it is quickly realized that they were only really effective against other nations that followed the same tactics. Every time they were pitted against the more fluid and dynamic "Western Style" strategies and tactics, they got their asses handed to them.

Iran and Iraq fought each other for a decade, both primarily using Soviet style tactics, assaults being led by massive barrages of rockets and artillery as fighters duked it out in the sky, neither side making any real significant advances. US goes to war against Iraq twice (both times with allies using similar tactics) and take them apart within days.

All of the Middle East strikes against Israel several times, following Warsaw Pact doctrine, with Warsaw Pact equipment. Israel destroys them every time.

Now notice I am not saying their tactics were not good. They were awesome, for the Soviet Union. But they had a manpower advantage that no other country other then maybe China could have pulled off. And they allowed them to bring this entire weight to bear against the Germans, where the more fluid style might not have been as effective.

And I never claimed the M4 Sherman was a good tank. However, it was a quick and easy to produce and maintain tank, which allowed them to be produced in the numbers needed to overwhelm the Germans. But also remember that tanks are not designed to actually go up against tanks. Both the US and Western Allies and the Germans always tried to avoid fighting tank against tank if at all possible (unless the opposing tanks were vastly inferior or they had no choice). That was the role of the Tank Destroyer. TDs were the ones that went out hunting other tanks. However the armor and numbers of the T-34 allowed it to do rudimentary job as a tank destroyer. This was a role it was shoved into simply because they had no tank destroyers until late in the war (when the SU-85 then SU-100 came out).

The Sherman was a good tank, but it had its shortcomings. The 34 was a good tank, but it had it's shortcomings, like the Panzer III and IV. The Tiger and the Panther were junk

The reason I argue against the 34 being the, "best tank of the war", is because my own experience with mounted warfare and what a disadvantage the lack of a gunner, good optics and a radio can create. Maneuver warfare requires that units from top to bottom be able to, " shoot, move and communicate", and the Four Elements of Combat Power are: leadership, firepower, communications and maneuver. The three biggest shortcomings--optics, no gunner and no radio--degrade those elements of combat power.
 
Had Soviet equipment and operators of that equipment had been superior to the Germans, they would have scored more kills. But, that's not what happened. What happened was, the Soviets were able to absorb those losses more than the Germans. It's nothing to do with a ****ing master race. Stop looking at history through partisan glasses and you'll learn volumes of information.

The Soviets had so many men to waste that they formed penal battalions (Shtrafbat) composed of dishonored officers and criminals. Almost 500,000 soldiers, and most of them were killed. Only the officers and NCOs had only pistols, the "soldiers" had no weapons at all. Their entire job was to "catch bullets". Survive 1-3 months in this duty and your "crimes" were forgiven and you were moved to safer duties, like clearing minefields.

The Germans on the other hand did have similar units, the Strafbattalion. These only totaled around 27,000 personnel, they were armed, and when a sentences was deemed to be "paid" they were returned to their prior military duties.
 
The Soviets had so many men to waste that they formed penal battalions (Shtrafbat) composed of dishonored officers and criminals. Almost 500,000 soldiers, and most of them were killed. Only the officers and NCOs had only pistols, the "soldiers" had no weapons at all. Their entire job was to "catch bullets". Survive 1-3 months in this duty and your "crimes" were forgiven and you were moved to safer duties, like clearing minefields.

The Germans on the other hand did have similar units, the Strafbattalion. These only totaled around 27,000 personnel, they were armed, and when a sentences was deemed to be "paid" they were returned to their prior military duties.

The Dirlewanger Brigade was such a unit. However, neither the Soviwtsa nor the Germans used those troops as pilots and very few--if any--were made into armored units. Tankers and pilots were the cream of the crop, or at least the upper crust of the ranks.
 
The mighty Eighth Air Force destroyed the Luftwaffe over Germany.

1) I said 'until about late '43'...what you are talking about took place primarily from 1944 onwards.

2) The Luftwaffe was already a beaten force by the time America started bombing Germany. And if you recall, despite that, the 8'th Air Force had to stop bombing because the losses being sustained were too great. But thanks in large part to the P-51 and it's range (so it could escort the bombers all the way to their targets and return), they could renew the attacks.

3) I guarantee you that a German fighter pilot with thousands of missions under his belt (which their more experienced pilots had) would be more then a match for almost any American fighter pilot with about 100 under theirs. It's just that by that point in the war, so many of these pilots had been killed and the Germans had neither the time nor the fuel to adequately train their replacements...whereas America had all of the time and fuel they needed.

The 8'th did not win because they had better pilots. They won because they had TONS more stuff and the stuff they had was usually better then what Germany had.
 
1) I said 'until about late '43'...what you are talking about took place primarily from 1944 onwards.

2) The Luftwaffe was already a beaten force by the time America started bombing Germany. And if you recall, despite that, the 8'th Air Force had to stop bombing because the losses being sustained were too great. But thanks in large part to the P-51 and it's range (so it could escort the bombers all the way to their targets and return), they could renew the attacks.

3) I guarantee you that a German fighter pilot with thousands of missions under his belt (which their more experienced pilots had) would be more then a match for almost any American fighter pilot with about 100 under theirs. It's just that by that point in the war, so many of these pilots had been killed and the Germans had neither the time nor the fuel to adequately train their replacements...whereas America had all of the time and fuel they needed.

The 8'th did not win because they had better pilots. They won because they had TONS more stuff and the stuff they had was usually better then what Germany had.

The 8th never stopped bombing. They sustained the highest casualty rate of any US force in the war, and persevered nonetheless. British Bomber Command was indeed driven to night operations by their daylight losses, but the Americans continued their daylight campaign. Goering remarked later that with the appearance of the P-51 as a long range escort he knew the Luftwaffe was finished. The P-51 was the preeminent fighter aircraft of the war, and while there were certainly excellent German pilots the Americans never felt themselves overmatched. In the end, the 8th drew the Luftwaffe into air battle and destroyed it.
 
Why did the Soviets lose nearly 3 times more tanks and assault guns than the Germans?

The Soviets a) lost gigantic numbers of near useless tanks in the first 2 years of the war and the T-34 was not the most numerous tank until long after the Germans invaded. 2) Soviet tactics (and their communist ideas) sucked. 3) Especially early on, their troops were not remotely as well trained as their German counterparts. 4) Because of this, Germans knew how to counter the weaknesses the T-34 had.

So explain to me then why - if this tank was so average - that the German solution to defeat it was initially to just copy it? Why would the German 'Master Race' (as many Nazi's believed they were) stoop to just copying a Soviet tank if the German tanks were so amazing?
 
The 8th never stopped bombing. They sustained the highest casualty rate of any US force in the war, and persevered nonetheless. British Bomber Command was indeed driven to night operations by their daylight losses, but the Americans continued their daylight campaign. Goering remarked later that with the appearance of the P-51 as a long range escort he knew the Luftwaffe was finished. The P-51 was the preeminent fighter aircraft of the war, and while there were certainly excellent German pilots the Americans never felt themselves overmatched. In the end, the 8th drew the Luftwaffe into air battle and destroyed it.

Yes, they did stop deep strike raids into Germany for a while because they simply could not sustain the losses.

'When the second attack on Schweinfurt came on October 14, the loss of more than 20% of the attacking force (60 out of 291 B-17s) resulted in the suspension of deep raids for five months.'

Schweinfurt
 
Yes, they did stop deep strike raids into Germany for a while because they simply could not sustain the losses.

'When the second attack on Schweinfurt came on October 14, the loss of more than 20% of the attacking force (60 out of 291 B-17s) resulted in the suspension of deep raids for five months.'

Schweinfurt

The Schweinfurt/Regensburg raids were exceptional efforts. This rapidly becomes a semantic argument over the meaning of "deep." Raids on Germany never stopped.
 
The Soviets a) lost gigantic numbers of near useless tanks in the first 2 years of the war and the T-34 was not the most numerous tank until long after the Germans invaded. 2) Soviet tactics (and their communist ideas) sucked. 3) Especially early on, their troops were not remotely as well trained as their German counterparts. 4) Because of this, Germans knew how to counter the weaknesses the T-34 had.

So explain to me then why - if this tank was so average - that the German solution to defeat it was initially to just copy it? Why would the German 'Master Race' (as many Nazi's believed they were) stoop to just copying a Soviet tank if the German tanks were so amazing?

The Germans didn't copy the 34.
 
The Schweinfurt/Regensburg raids were exceptional efforts. This rapidly becomes a semantic argument over the meaning of "deep." Raids on Germany never stopped.

I am not going to argue about this.

This is nothing to do with pilots or nationalities - this is to do with tactics. In WW2, you simply could not send unescorted bombers in broad daylight, deep into a modern, well equipped, air defence without getting gigantic losses.

You want to drone on and on about the 8'th Air Force, please find someone else to wax poetic to.

I am just here to have fun and talk tactics - not get nationalistic (which it seems, every time I talk to you, you do).

Lighten up.


Good day.
 
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The Germans didn't copy the 34.

Did you miss the photo above? That was a photo of an actual idea of German industry for the next medium tank..and it looks almost exactly like the T-34.

Their first idea to combat the T-34 was to copy it. So much so that they actually developed a mockup.

But, needless to say, Hitler would not have been gaga about that...so they ditched the ideas and came up with own version...but it took many ideas from the T-34.


Now I will as you one last time - why would the Germans initial idea to combat the T-34 be to copy the thing if their own tanks were so great?
 
I am not going to argue about this.

This is nothing to do with pilots or nationalities - this is to do with tactics. In WW2, you simply could not send unescorted bombers in broad daylight, deep into a modern, well equipped, air defence without getting gigantic losses.

You want to drone on and on about the 8'th Air Force, please find someone else to wax poetic to.

I am just here to have fun and talk tactics - not get nationalistic (which it seems, every time I talk to you, you do).

Lighten up.


Good day.

I did not realize that a plain recitation of fact was nationalistic. The first Schweinfurt raid was in August 1943 if memory serves, and the second was in October. Big Week (with the P-51) followed in February 1944. I don't see a five month hiatus in that. The pause had more to do with winter weather and refits than losses.
 
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Now I will as you one last time - why would the Germans initial idea to combat the T-34 be to copy the thing if their own tanks were so great?
Because they were incredibly cheap. The T-34 if you've ever seen one in person, is more spartan then some modern agricultural equipment. The only real mechanical advantage of the 34 was that it ran a Diesel engine whereas the allies and Germans used gasoline for some strange reason. The German tanks were otherwise fine, but when you enemies crank out 5 tanks for every one you do there's not much better quality can do
That's also why the allies stuck with the M3 and M4 because they were quick to build even though the Americans had better tanks on the drawing board
 
The Soviets a) lost gigantic numbers of near useless tanks in the first 2 years of the war and the T-34 was not the most numerous tank until long after the Germans invaded. 2) Soviet tactics (and their communist ideas) sucked. 3) Especially early on, their troops were not remotely as well trained as their German counterparts. 4) Because of this, Germans knew how to counter the weaknesses the T-34 had.

So explain to me then why - if this tank was so average - that the German solution to defeat it was initially to just copy it? Why would the German 'Master Race' (as many Nazi's believed they were) stoop to just copying a Soviet tank if the German tanks were so amazing?

Soviet morale also sucked due to a war with Finland that ended in a stalemate with heavy soviet losses and a Failure to accomplish any of their objectives.

The T34 is like a honda civic, the panther is like a BMW, the German tanks were expensive. And not easy to mass produce. The German copy plan was the theory they could field as many tanks as the soviets if they made a cheap tank and the T34 was that. The T34s Diesel engine was also more reliable , but since German refineries were not geared to make diesel fuel this would not have worked
 
Wait, you didn't already know that the Soviets lost 2-3 times more men and material than the Germans? That's WW2 101 stuff.

Those losses didn't have as much to do with using tankers and pilots as cannon fodder as it does with German pilots and tankers being more skilled at their craft. Had things been equal, the Soviets would have lost the war by 1943.

The Soviets had the numbers, true, and Stalin managed to scare up some above average--not brilliant qr tacticians that survived his purges that knew how to make the numbers work in their favor.

Had Soviet equipment and operators of that equipment had been superior to the Germans, they would have scored more kills. But, that's not what happened. What happened was, the Soviets were able to absorb those losses more than the Germans. It's nothing to do with a ****ing master race. Stop looking at history through partisan glasses and you'll learn volumes of information.

The notion that you could teach me anything about World War II is ludicrous. As is the notion that the reason the Germans were so successful in Russia is because they were the 'master race' - infinitely superior to anything a bunch of Slavs could do. They were successful because they had modern weapons and a military already experienced in warfare in Western Europe. They were going up against a bunch of poorly led, poorly equipped troops that never had a chance. Once the Russians got their act together and got comparable weapons and experience, they kicked the Nazi butts all the way back to Berlin.
 
The 8th never stopped bombing. They sustained the highest casualty rate of any US force in the war, and persevered nonetheless. British Bomber Command was indeed driven to night operations by their daylight losses, but the Americans continued their daylight campaign. Goering remarked later that with the appearance of the P-51 as a long range escort he knew the Luftwaffe was finished. The P-51 was the preeminent fighter aircraft of the war, and while there were certainly excellent German pilots the Americans never felt themselves overmatched. In the end, the 8th drew the Luftwaffe into air battle and destroyed it.

Actually, I thought the US Submarine service sustained the highest casualty rate of any US force, but I could be wrong. Both the Eighth Air Force and British Bomber Command sustained incredibly high rates. The P-51 made continued daylight bombing raids possible.
 
Why did the Soviets lose nearly 3 times more tanks and assault guns than the Germans?

Because it didn't matter to them. The Soviet Union had an advantage in numbers, why would you not use it AP?
 
Germans used captured tanks because they were always outnumbered (especially late in the war) and needed to use whatever they could get their hands on.

I have always thought the Panther was the superior tank of the war, and certainly our M4 Sherman was widely regarded as inferior. In the end the Russians may have got it right when they settled on the T-34 and just stuck to the design. One of Heinz Guderian's positions during the war was Inspector General of Armored Troops. In his memoir he complained at length of the maintenance and supply chain problems created by ever-changing models of German tanks. Once, when Dr. Porsche asked him what was Guderian's recommendation for future tank production, Guderian showed Porsche a captured T-34 and said: "Build this, just this, and no changes, ever." Porsche was highly insulted and stormed off.

Allies used captured German material as well, especially in NA where supply was a problem for both sides.
Captured_Italian_tanks_005042.webp
In North Africa in 1941, Australian troops were part of the force which captured Tobruk on 22 January as part of Operation Compass, yielding over 25,000 prisoners along with 236 field and medium guns,[24] 23 medium tanks and more than 200 other vehicles.[25] During the capture of the town Australians from the 6th Division Cavalry Regiment had used a number of captured Italian M11 tanks which had been pressed into service due to a lack of their own tanks, painting kangaroos on the side so they would not be attacked by their own side.
Tanks in the Australian Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The allies weren't just limited to using German tanks they used other weapons as well.
MP38 (Maschinenpistole 38) - Submachine Gun - History, Specs and Pictures - Military, Security and Civilian Guns and Equipment
THE MP40 SUBMACHINE GUN

The Allies also occasionally used German Guns
8.8 cm Flak 18/36/37/41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Flak 36 guns were briefly issued in late 1944 to the American 7th Army as captured weapons. The 79th Field Artillery Battalion (Provisional) was formed from personnel of the 79th and 179th Field Artillery Groups to fire captured German artillery pieces at the height of an ammunition shortage. Similarly, the 244th Field Artillery Battalion was temporarily equipped with a miscellany of captured German 88mm guns and 105mm and 150mm howitzers. As of December 31, 1944, the 244th Field Artillery Battalion had fired a total of 10,706 rounds through captured German weapons.[17]

Basically Both sides used each others equipment at times.
 
Well for one they started the war with huge numbers of light tanks that just got decimated in combat and lost more when large parts of the Russian Army surrendered early on in the war.
For another thing They couldn't lose as many as the Russians as they never built as many
German armored fighting vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're wrong, my friend. The Soviets lost more equipment than the Germans for two reasons: 1) it broke down and was canabalized, or abandoned or, 2) the Germans destroyed it on the battlefield.

Those are absolutely the only two reasons that the Soviets lost aircraft and vehicles.

Those numbers also reinforce my claim that without American and British support, the Soviets couldn't have defeated the Germans.
 
Because it didn't matter to them. The Soviet Union had an advantage in numbers, why would you not use it AP?

I never said they shouldn't have. My point, is that German tankers, gun crews and pilots scored more kills than the Soviets.
 
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