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Second Amendment Also Covers Those In US Illegally

natsb said:
People of every nationality and color are crossing the border illegally. Why are you fixated on brown people? Do you have something against the others, that they are the only ones that should be deported?
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Because the only thing that pro-illegal folks have is to play the racism card. All their other arguments always go down the tube. Of course so does their racism claim, but they still use it to try and shut the opposition up.
 
Riveroaks said:
Our international neighbors to the north and south, Canada and Mexico, do not have a 2nd Amendment like we do. I can bring my rifle, carbine or shotgun into Canada for a limited amount of time, but need to remove it/them eventually and thusly leave Canada too. I cannot bring a handgun into Canada under any circumstances. (A handgun is a gun you that can shoot with one hand, as R. Lee Ermy says -- meaning a pistol or revolver.)

Mexico does not allow any firearms into their country across their borders.

The USA is unique in having a 2nd Amendment, but Federal and State legislation ignores it in most cases.

"The People" probably means the people who can vote, in the US Constitution and in the 2nd Amendment. That's how it has been interpreted under Federal law apparently.

Based on the way Canada and Mexico deal with this issue, I would say the US Federal position on illegal immigrants is reasonable.
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The reason that the question of just who were the "people" was not addressed by the founders was that illegal immigration was not an issue.

We at this late date tend to forget that that of the signers of the Declaration and the Constitution, not one of them was a citizen of the United States of America.
 
Deuce said:
Raising minimum wage it is!
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You do realize, do you not? that raising the minimum wage makes more low end jobs cheaper when done by illegals.
 
jimbo said:
The reason that the question of just who were the "people" was not addressed by the founders was that illegal immigration was not an issue.

We at this late date tend to forget that that of the signers of the Declaration and the Constitution, not one of them was a citizen of the United States of America.
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Actually, yes, the question of "who were the people" was addressed by the founders. The very words of the preamble of the Constitution state just who those people were. "We The People, of the United States,". That does not include the people of the British Empire, or France, or any other country. Just those that lived in the US at the time of the signing of the Constitution. And yes, even then they had concerns about illegal immigration. Indeed the Constitution shows that in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 which expressly gives the United States Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization. And the first Naturalization Act was enacted in 1970 pursuant to the Constitutions Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, a mere 3 years after the signing of the Constitution. To think that illegal immigration was "not an issue" is shown to be false by these very facts. After all, if it wasn't an issue then they wouldn't have put such a statement in the Constitution or had anything to do with immigration laws at all until a much later date after the founding of this country.
 
Moot said:
Once across the border most illegals do follow the laws and become good law abiding, tax paying, non-citizens mainly because they want to stay here and not get deported.
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The facts say otherwise. In states with high illegal counts, illegal prison counts are far higher than their percentage of the population. In California, about 15% of the population is illegal, while 25% of the prison population is illegals. In Arizona it's 13% of prison population vs 6% of the population. Those figures do not include those on hold for ICE.
 
HenryChinaski said:
An individual sneaking across the border, busting their ass doing some menial suck job that neither you or I would ever take is displaying the American spirit all the way and tip of the chapeau to them.
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Such utter BS. My first job was at 16 working a cash register at a drug store. During college I literally shoveled s*** to pay my way. If hard labor is below you then that is more of a comment on you than it is a valid argument for illegal immigration.
 
Deuce said:
Free market at work.
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So are you in favor of abolishing the minimum wage for everyone, or just for brown people?
 
HenryChinaski said:
An individual sneaking across the border, busting their ass doing some menial suck job that neither you or I would ever take is displaying the American spirit all the way and tip of the chapeau to them.
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Deport every illegal alien to whatever sorry excuse for a nation he crawled out of. The notion that anyone who has shown his contempt for our laws and our sovereignty by entering our territory without permission has the right to keep and bear arms is laughable. As the Supreme Court has said, “ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution… . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Second Amendment[] . . . refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.” U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990). No alien who is unlawfully present on U.S. territory is any part of our national community. To hell with all these alien invaders, and to hell with every America-hating collectivist rat who supports their lawless assault on this country.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Incorrect. Many illegal aliens that at the very least don't get ITIN's are in fact still breaking the law. Federal laws like fraud to be exact. They either use forged documents to get jobs or use stolen identities that they buy off the black market to get jobs. Many of those stolen identities belong to children.

Illegal, but Not Undocumented

No, once across the border most illegals continue to break our laws.
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That was a good article, Kal'Stang. I had heard about child ID theft years ago but didn't really give it much thought. Your article is a bit old (2009), as are most articles on the subject, so I wonder if things have improved much since then. Seems like the IRS could do more to help prevent SS fraud, but apparently privacy laws won't allow them...and too, illegals that have jobs, pay into SS but are ineligible to collect it. So it's like a huge win fall for the government. The article below says the government gained over $20 billion in SS revenue during the 1990s just from fake SS.

According the article below, the majority of illegals obtain a stolen or fake SS just to get a job and conduct their daily lives and not for nefarious reasons like financial fraud or gain....

"All that was happening was that the illegal alien who had gotten the card had gotten a job at a Sizzler steakhouse in Provo and was paying her bills and doing a good job," he said..."​

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/americas/04iht-id.2688618.html?pagewanted=all

But I have to say....I sure wouldn't want my ID stolen. What a nightmare that would be.
 
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HenryChinaski said:
Why would the ice cream scoop kid at Dairy Queen take a job pounding bolts into cattles skulls for the same wage or less than what he's making scooping ice cream at Dairy Queen? Wouldn't you rather scoop ice cream then pound bolts into cattle skulls?
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If the illegal aliens weren't here Con Agra would have to actually pay a competitive wage. As its stands now they don't.
 
PirateMk1 said:
If the illegal aliens weren't here Con Agra would have to actually pay a competitive wage. As its stands now they don't.
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What do they pay?
 
Moot said:
What do they pay?
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Out here it depends on the company and the region you are in but on average for packers about $10.00hr here in California.

A lot of those types jobs where illegal aliens are the majority of the work force, regular Americans would have a hard time getting because the local supervisors don't want the aliens to be disgruntled. It happens quite a bit out here in California in the packing plants, both with plant workers and with the logistics side with the owner operators. Hispanics tend to be very racially motivated out here and if you aren't Hispanic, you aren't working where they have a major in.
 
Moot said:
That was a good article, Kal'Stang. I had heard about child ID theft years ago but didn't really give it much thought. Your article is a bit old (2009), as are most articles on the subject, so I wonder if things have improved much since then. Seems like the IRS could do more to help prevent SS fraud, but apparently privacy laws won't allow them...and too, illegals that have jobs, pay into SS but are ineligible to collect it. So it's like a huge win fall for the government. The article below says the government gained over $20 billion in SS revenue during the 1990s just from fake SS.

According the article below, the majority of illegals obtain a stolen or fake SS just to get a job and conduct their daily lives and not for nefarious reasons like financial fraud or gain....

"All that was happening was that the illegal alien who had gotten the card had gotten a job at a Sizzler steakhouse in Provo and was paying her bills and doing a good job," he said..."​

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/americas/04iht-id.2688618.html?pagewanted=all

But I have to say....I sure wouldn't want my ID stolen. What a nightmare that would be.
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That is what I call a "feel good" article. It's intent is to dismiss the fact that a crime is being committed that hurts other people and then turns things around to where the reader is supposed to feel sorry for the illegal alien by espousing that these illegals just want to provide for their family and that the money they pay in taxes but never see a dime of it back. Fact is what they are doing is a federal crime. If I went out and stole food in order to feed my family would the law, or anyone else for that matter, actually care? The answer to that of course is no. They wouldn't.

And I wouldn't worry too much about them not getting SS benefits, they get the money back by lying on their federal tax forms to the tune of billions every year. Some of them get back more than I make in a year.

 
PirateMk1 said:
Out here it depends on the company and the region you are in but on average for packers about $10.00hr here in California.

A lot of those types jobs where illegal aliens are the majority of the work force, regular Americans would have a hard time getting because the local supervisors don't want the aliens to be disgruntled. It happens quite a bit out here in California in the packing plants, both with plant workers and with the logistics side with the owner operators. Hispanics tend to be very racially motivated out here and if you aren't Hispanic, you aren't working where they have a major in.
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It's also extremely dangerous work. People lose limbs and become maimed in that industry. Doesn't seem all that appealing for $10.00 an hour.
 
HenryChinaski said:
It's also extremely dangerous work. People lose limbs and become maimed in that industry. Doesn't seem all that appealing for $10.00 an hour.
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It would pay more and the conditions would be better if the aliens didn't do it. Which is my point.
 
upsideguy said:
For the record, about half of the "illegals" did not cross the border illegally. They presented passports, visas and cleared customs. They just didn't go home when their visas expired.

Myths and facts about immigration to the United States - RationalWiki

Not only that, the number of illegals has actually declined over the past four years.

5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S. | Pew Research Center
U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Population Trends, 1990-2012 | Pew Research Center

There really isn't a real problem here, just a perceived problem. It the perceived problem exists because politicians like to appeal to innate nationalistic and racist tendencies of the electorate...... politicians love a good enemy that they can use to stir up the low information voter....right now, no one has mastered this tactic better than Trump.

Our irrational fear the Mexican illegal is "Canadian Bacon."
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The perception is that hundreds of thousands of mexicans are sneaking across the border. According to Obama, this is true:

Obama says illegal border crossing attempts are at lowest point since 1970s | PolitiFact Florida

And this is just those they apprehend. Thats not perception, thats reality.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Doesn't the right have the mindset that more guns make the world a better and safer place? How does an individual with a gun that has an official document make us safer, as opposed to an individual with a gun without official documents?
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Criminal with gun...
 
jimbo said:
The reason that the question of just who were the "people" was not addressed by the founders was that illegal immigration was not an issue.

We at this late date tend to forget that that of the signers of the Declaration and the Constitution, not one of them was a citizen of the United States of America.
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The point is that the Feds and the States both ignore whatever parts of the Constitution they want to ignore whenever they draft legislation.

Then they just wait to see if the SCOTUS gets the case or not and rules or not.

They're stonewalling.

But they always get away with it.
 
HenryChinaski said:
If I go fishing without a licence then I'm a criminal. It's just a piece of paper.
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If you go fishing in a lake or river without a license you are violating state game laws. Essentially you are stealing from the state because you are not paying your share of the biological management cost to conserve the fish and regulate the fishing.

Bad analogy.
 
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