School scores continue to drop

[Cope]

No, that's not correct - a global pandemic that killed over a million Americans, and sent many times that sick and to hospitals but who didn't die, caused that damage.

And of course "they" did try to figure it out and weigh all those trade-offs in real time as best they could. Your position is that once we figured out it was mostly the old and sick who would DIE, throw up their hands, remove all restrictions and just let COVID kill who it will. Perhaps that was the best option, but you're not even making a case for that other than your own willingness to let presumably your own parents die decades early for the sake of the economy. And you're also working from a position of hindsight, that we knew then that the original strain was not a serious risk to YOU, and could know the unknown variants to come also weren't likely to kill YOU, because what I'd bet a lot of money is if YOU were at high risk of death, it's all worth it.

Any time you start off an argument with 'Your position" , i can guarantee you its wrong .

And I'm right, It's wrong.

As I have stated, there could have been work arounds. You are still in punt mode, and defense of punt mode. To you it's always 4th and long isn't it?

 

[Razoo]

One of the things private schools sell is exclusivity. Their wealthy clientelle wont give up the social and educational advantages they are buying for their kids. If Americans get $5,000 vouchers the tuition in private schools will go up $5,000.
Also, if a private school finds it has a couple empty seats for next semester, theyll fill them with carefully chosen scholarship candidates, not the first lower middle class riffraff that comes through the door waving a voucher.
Government schools work just fine in all those countries that outperform American students.

exactly

 

[justabubba]

they absolutely should, and so should teachers. lets hope the union sees it that way.

why would the teachers' union see it in a different manner?

 

[Cope]

One of the things private schools sell is exclusivity. Their wealthy clientelle wont give up the social and educational advantages they are buying for their kids. If Americans get $5,000 vouchers the tuition in private schools will go up $5,000.
Also, if a private school finds it has a couple empty seats for next semester, theyll fill them with carefully chosen scholarship candidates, not the first lower middle class riffraff that comes through the door waving a voucher.
Government schools work just fine in all those countries that outperform American students.

They sure do with cultures and PARENT's who prioritize education.

So, one or the other? Which one you going to try and get done.

 

[Chomsky]

I mean, I didn't think I alluded , that was to the point. The people at greatest risk were the old and infirm.

You very much seemed to imply to risk/sacrifice seniors. Unless I misunderstood?

How many of those are in the schools teaching etc?

I have no idea what you're implying here.

Regardless, seniors make-up 17% of the U.S. population, while kids make-up 22%. So it seems both are significant population demographics not to be overlooked in terms of safety response.

 

[JasperL]

The point is this:
There could have been work arounds, except for the mass hysteria caused directly by our politicians at the time.

The problem with your "analysis" is you've not thought at all about the supposedly available work arounds, other than simplistically.

Some of it may have been justified, I'll grant that.
But our children and the teachers could have 'MOSTLY' found a workable solution, but instead, they punted. Them punting has done irreparable harm to this nation.

Right, and all this workaround meant was the 7 million who worked in public schools and the 7 million or whatever others directly impacted by those workers, such as spouses, parents, etc. accept a higher risk of death, more serious cases. And all that in a period of immense uncertainty. Shutdowns in the immediate months following the pandemic were of course obvious, because we did not KNOW then who was at risk. And go look at when deaths spiked. What you're asking/demanding is public schools and others ignore that deaths were skyrocketing at those critical periods, such as winter 2020-2021, hitting new records every day, and then open the schools back up anyway.

Exemptions for the old teachers, of those 'at risk'. The rest can go teach.

But, again, it's not just about those at those schools. That's the point - you cannot just isolate those who work there, and ignore the broader community. It's who those workers, and the school kids, were in contact with, for starters. So you exempt all the teachers at risk, then all those teachers in regular contact with at risk people, such as spouses, parents, other coworkers, then you exempt all the at risk kids, and all those kids with at risk parents, and all those kids with at risk grandparents who cared for them, and all the kids with parents who worked with other at risk people.

This whole old people line is a canard. It was used in regards to people saying yeah but.

I don't think you know what 'canard' means. Maybe talk to a teacher about that. You've acknowledged the old were at high risk, and I clearly pointed out all the others at serious risk, such as the 40% of the adult population who were obese, high blood pressure, metabolic disease, diabetes, liver disease, etc...............................

You're willing to sacrifice the old AND ALL THE REST AT HIGH RISK.

 

[justabubba]

I have said for over two years what we did in the pandemic panic to children was unconscionable.

what was the alternative?

 

[Grand Mal]

They sure do with cultures and PARENT's who prioritize education.

So, one or the other? Which one you going to try and get done.

Which what? What are you asking?
Tell you one thing that I suspect might be different between, say, Canada or any other nation in the top 10 of PISA scores and the USA. Teachers here in Canada are pretty well paid and the profession is held in high regard. That makes it attractive to the kind of people you want to attract. If teachers are held in contempt by much of the society who will you get to be teachers? Also, in a capitalism you get paid according to the value of what you produce. Well, except for those who set their own compensation rates but thats a different subject. Point is, the value of what one produces is an easy equation in some cases but with people like teachers and cops, sometimes their rate of pay is decided by people who dont put a high value on what they do.

 

[Cope]

You very much seemed to imply to risk/sacrifice seniors. Unless I misunderstood?



I have no idea what you're implying here.

Regardless, seniors make-up 17% of the U.S. population, while kids make-up 22%. So it seems both are significant population demographics not to be overlooked in terms of safety response.

You're whizzing by the forest but you see trees.

The point is this:
There could have been work arounds, except for the mass hysteria caused directly by our politicians at the time. Some of it may have been justified, I'll grant that.
But our children and the teachers could have 'MOSTLY' found a workable solution, but instead, they punted. Them punting has done irreparable harm to this nation.

Exemptions for the old teachers, of those 'at risk'. The rest can go teach.

This whole old people line is a canard. It was used in regards to people saying yeah but.

 

[JasperL]

Any time you start off an argument with 'Your position" , i can guarantee you its wrong .

And I'm right, It's wrong.

As I have stated, there could have been work arounds. You are still in punt mode, and defense of punt mode. To you it's always 4th and long isn't it?

Like what? You've not offered any "work arounds" at all, except simplistic ones that quit the analysis at step one, when anyone in a position of authority had to include ALL the impacts, such as on those not working directly at the schools, etc.

It's the same crap we saw with people suggesting that to protect those in nursing homes, just isolate THEM. But of course my mother in law's place had maybe 100 workers going in and out every week, who were not and couldn't be isolated, so if COVID spread wildly in the broader community, there was no chance to keep it out of those nursing homes. Well, if you ignore all the workers and their spouses, kids, etc. then "isolate the old" makes perfect sense.

And they are related. How many nursing home workers also have kids, or spouses, that work or attend schools? Well if COVID spread throughout the schools, and we know it would, then those parents get infected, then they'll spread it to where THEY work, including hospitals, nursing homes and everywhere else parents of school age children work. Do you even nod at those impacts? Of course not because it makes the analysis a little less obvious.

 

[Cope]

Which what? What are you asking?
Tell you one thing that I suspect might be different between, say, Canada or any other nation in the top 10 of PISA scores and the USA. Teachers here in Canada are pretty well paid and the profession is held in high regard. That makes it attractive to the kind of people you want to attract. If teachers are held in contempt by much of the society who will you get to be teachers? Also, in a capitalism you get paid according to the value of what you produce. Well, except for those who set their own compensation rates but thats a different subject. Point is, the value of what one produces is an easy equation in some cases but with people like teachers and cops, sometimes their rate of pay is decided by people who dont put a high value on what they do.

Are you going to get parent's and cultures aligned with prioritizing education OR are you going to allow the failing kids to fail with no changes to the system that is failing them? Vouchers would be a new thing, something not tried but you espouse you already KNOW what would happen.

 

[Integrityrespec]

National test scores released yesterday show the largest math declines ever recorded for fourth and eighth grade students across the country, while reading levels dropped to the lowest level since 1992.



The results are from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, known as the "nation's report card," which tests hundreds of fourth and eighth graders and was administered for the first time since 2019. The results are considered the first nationally represented study of the coronavirus pandemic's impact on learning.



The findings show math scores for eighth graders fell in nearly every state, with the average math score dropping eight points since 2019, from 282 to 274, out of a possible 500. The average math score for fourth graders fell by five points. In reading, both grades' averages fell three points. Researchers say a 10-point decline or gain is equivalent to about a year of learning. See the data breakdown for math here and reading here.

Good morning. It's Tuesday, Oct. 25, and we're covering a high school shooting in St. Louis, the UK's latest (and youngest) prime minister, and much more. Have feedback? Let us know at hello@join1440.com.

One of if not the biggest problem we face.....and it isnt just the teachers fault
Too many students
Not enough resources
Parents that because of so many issues just dont pay attention

We continue to fall behind....Japan, Korea, hell most of Asia is kicking our ass now in the sciences
Our schools cant be babysitters....they must be institutes of learning
And if that means we remove the issues so the other students can actually learn, maybe that is the answer

What we are doing NOW isnt working.....

Thanks to poor school policies.
Poor educational philosophies and strategies.
Lowing standards.
Concentrating on social agendas and not educational excellence.
Lazy teachers and teachers unions who protect them, (by no means all teachers, but you know about one bad apple)
Covid school closings dictated by ridiculous policies advocated by Teachers Unions, Democrats, Joe Biden, WHO, CDC, Dr Fauci
All just goes to show that liberal policies concerning education aren't at all about getting an education.

 

[Cope]

Like what? You've not offered any "work arounds" at all, except simplistic ones that quit the analysis at step one, when anyone in a position of authority had to include ALL the impacts, such as on those not working directly at the schools, etc.

I(s this what you do anytime questions the status quo? They have to have an immediate and comprehensive fix, even when not in power or position to do so?

It's the same crap we saw with people suggesting that to protect those in nursing homes, just isolate THEM. But of course my mother in law's place had maybe 100 workers going in and out every week, who were not and couldn't be isolated, so if COVID spread wildly in the broader community, there was no chance to keep it out of those nursing homes. Well, if you ignore all the workers and their spouses, kids, etc. then "isolate the old" makes perfect sense.

Essential workers ARE essential. What else? Let them die from non care?

And they are related. How many nursing home workers also have kids, or spouses, that work or attend schools? Well if COVID spread throughout the schools, and we know it would, then those parents get infected, then they'll spread it to where THEY work, including hospitals, nursing homes and everywhere else parents of school age children work. Do you even nod at those impacts? Of course not because it makes the analysis a little less obvious.

You are conveniently dismissing ANY and ALL work arounds

 

[Razoo]

Please be aware my comments & questions below are not intended in a personal manner towards you or your children.

But, there are questions I have as their experience relates to the general discussion of homeschooling. If, I may?



Then, how do you propose measuring academic progress?



Which institutions, at which level?

Anyone can get into "college", but it takes real prep to get into a completive or selective institution.

That the bulk of public education produces a mediocre output, does not imply that should be the basic requirement to be met.



Firstly, congratulations to your children and yourself on their achievements.

But I notice your kids have succeeded in non-STEM, non-technical, non-business-professional fields of endeavor.

Do you believe you & your wife were able to prep the kids for the full range of opportunities they could pursue, especially STEM or other careers that require strong math or science prep, like economics or engineering for instance?

I ask this because my kids went to Catholic Prep schools, where I believe they got a wide and deep education, including in the sciences & math. The did math through Calculus, which enabled them to enter STEM or professional business programs if they so chose.

Did you believe you gave kids superior math & science prep. The kind that could get them into a quality physics physics or engineering program if they so chose?

I find it hard to believe any two parents would have the full depth of knowledge to be able to instruct kids to a superior levels in all the subjects a good prep education provides, including outside of STEM.

What I'm concerned about here is not about preparing kids adequately, but rather about being able to prep superior achievers to a superior level. My fear is the bright achievers could get knee-capped, no differently that if they went to a mediocre school below their abilities.



This is a deep subject, so I'm sticking to the homeschooling aspects - if you don't mind?

I stand my ground! You do not know homeschooling well enough to criticize. You do not know us well enough to criticize. Being aware of what children need to succeed is not a matter we take lightly.

Our children received plenty of math, science, history, civics, reading and developed study habits beyond reality. We had access to curriculum and advisors, college level exposure in natural history taught by TA's and let's not forget socialization which happens everywhere children are ..........

Every family cannot afford prep school or home school. Most all parents believe their children get the best education ..... you and I are not special.

Politicians gradually defunding public education is a huge concern. For all communities. Excellent public education facilities draws employers/industry. Economic growth needs public education classrooms.

 

[justabubba]

I sort of forced my own kids to learn math and reading, although we did let them choose to what to read.

As far as other subjects, I don't think you can justify it. If they are proficient in math and reading they will be able to learn any subject.

95% of the time your "full breadth education" is memorizing test answers, which are soon forgotten once the test is over.

your post portfolio on these boards does not support your premise about what constitutes a sound education, as described above

 

[justabubba]

The point is this:
There could have been work arounds, except for the mass hysteria caused directly by our politicians at the time. Some of it may have been justified, I'll grant that.
But our children and the teachers could have 'MOSTLY' found a workable solution, but instead, they punted. Them punting has done irreparable harm to this nation.

Exemptions for the old teachers, of those 'at risk'. The rest can go teach.

This whole old people line is a canard. It was used in regards to people saying yeah but.

your hind sight is amazing!

 

[Chomsky]

Thanks for the response.

Please keep in mind my questions & comments are not in personal terms to you or your children, but are in reference to the larger context of understanding and/or debating this type of education process.

I sort of forced my own kids to learn math and reading, although we did let them choose to what to read.

"Sort of forced?". I'd call it critical! Otherwise, the kids would be poorly educated!

Regardless, good for you.

As far as other subjects, I don't think you can justify it. If they are proficient in math and reading they will be able to learn any subject.

I strongly disagree.

There is a basic body of knowledge required to have a complete education. And that provides understanding of the world and the ability to function well in it.

In addition, by the kids lacking in exposure to these subjects, I believe it limits their possibility to become enlightened by a particular subject or field of endeavor. They won't know, if they don't experience those other subjects.

Also, I must ask: In these type of programs, are there required subjects? Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, History, etc?

95% of the time your "full breadth education" is memorizing test answers, which are soon forgotten once the test is over.

This statement is a mischaracterization, IMO.

Firstly, yes, there is basic knowledge which is required to know, whether you prefer to call it memorization or not. We need these basic bits of knowledge before we can even apply critical thinking to get to higher concepts.

To not know these essential things would cause one to be less understanding of the world, and limit their efficacy in it. Now obviously, we could debate what are the critical bits of knowledge we need - but they are there.

 

[Grand Mal]

Are you going to get parent's and cultures aligned with prioritizing education OR are you going to allow the failing kids to fail with no changes to the system that is failing them? Vouchers would be a new thing, something not tried but you espouse you already KNOW what would happen.

Wealthy people send their children to private schools because they can afford to buy an advantage for their children. They wont give that advantage up.
Also, private schools dont have unlimited seats. They have waiting lists. No amount of vouchers will get Billy and Becky from D Street into a class with William and Rebecca from Parkside Drive.
Youre right, I dont KNOW what would happen with a voucher system but neither do you. We can both predict, however.

 

[Chomsky]

your hind sight is amazing!

I first thought "Freudian", but now I'm thinking dry humor!

Amirite?

 

[JasperL]

I(s this what you do anytime questions the status quo? They have to have an immediate and comprehensive fix, even when not in power or position to do so?

You're the one asserting available work arounds, and faulting those in charge for not taking these unknown 'workarounds' and so it's your burden to say what those were, and how we could have known about them in the moment, not with perfect hindsight.

You're not even trying because you pretend that the impact of opening schools was/is limited to those working at those schools. That's clearly FALSE, so you're starting with a false premise that's frankly woefully ignorant of the considerations those in charge HAD to make.

Just in my own life, my wife is a college professor, and she's in good health and likely not at risk. But we have many friends who are teachers who have sick spouses, sick parents, her own mother was very frail and my wife is her primary caretaker, and she required regular care from us even though she lived in assisted living because COVID meant many workers quit, or had to sit out weeks while they or their close contacts got and recovered from COVID. So we did what those workers couldn't, and that's WITH the shutdowns, etc.

So it's easy for me to see how opening up schools, whether K-12 or colleges, to in-class meant my wife's risk went up, then her mother's risk went up, and so did the spouses of all our friends with people close to them at risk. Same thing with friends who worked in daycare. It's not just about THOSE workers, and many of them quit because their own risk was high, but those close to those workers. No one with a sick spouse at home could rationally work in daycare with COVID rampant, even if the kids were at little personal risk.

You are conveniently dismissing ANY and ALL work arounds

I'm dismissing you asserting ????? workarounds were available but not taken, then failing to address at all, completely ignoring, the 2nd and 3rd and 4th order impacts of decisions like opening up K-12 that people in authority in fact HAD TO CONSIDER.

 

[justabubba]

Thanks to poor school policies.
Poor educational philosophies and strategies.
Lowing standards.
Concentrating on social agendas and not educational excellence.
Lazy teachers and teachers unions who protect them, (by no means all teachers, but you know about one bad apple)
Covid school closings dictated by ridiculous policies advocated by Teachers Unions, Democrats, Joe Biden, WHO, CDC, Dr Fauci
All just goes to show that liberal policies concerning education aren't at all about getting an education.

were ^ those not in place during a GQP administration?
my recollection is the president at the time was this fellow named tRump
he placed his vice president in charge of the response to the pandemic

it would appear you are attempting to pawn off the bad stuff that happened during the republican administration as being attributable to the progressives. that was not the reality

 

[Integrityrespec]

exactly

You clearly don't know about what you are talking. Lots of private schools already take "scholarship" candidates and lots of very middle class parents sacrifice to get their kids into private schools but religiously affiliated and non-religious. There are lots of reasons and one of those is just getting a better education.

 

[Chomsky]

I stand my ground!

I never asked you to relinquish "your ground".

I posed questions & concerns, hoping to understand the process better, especially in my areas of concern.

You do not know homeschooling well enough to criticize. You do not know us well enough to criticize.

Actually, I was hoping for some enlightenment.

Being aware of what children need to succeed is not a matter we take lightly.

I never implied less.

Our children received plenty of math, science, history, civics, reading and developed study habits beyond reality. We had access to curriculum and advisors, college level exposure in natural history taught by TA's and let's not forget socialization which happens everywhere children are ..........

My not being aware of the above, was why I asked the questions. Please don't misconstrue my questioning (or concerns) with personal criticism.

When I suggested no two parents have the knowledge or skill-sets to prepare higher achieving kids, you could have simply replied with the above.

But I still have concerns:

If you do not believe in testing, how do you measure academic achievement? Do you test within a given course, to measure the students progress? Are their any state requirements for general testing?

Do they take ACT Tests? (If so, how do the kids score?)

Most all parents believe their children get the best education ..... you and I are not special.

Politicians gradually defunding public education is a huge concern. For all communities. Excellent public education facilities draws employers/industry. Economic growth needs public education classrooms.

Yes, we are becoming a nation of haves & have-nots, including in education. In my metro area the choices for a superior education are either:

1] Magnate schools (in the city)
2] Private schools, most often Catholic
2] Move to an affluent suburb

 

[gdgyva]

One of the things private schools sell is exclusivity. Their wealthy clientelle wont give up the social and educational advantages they are buying for their kids. If Americans get $5,000 vouchers the tuition in private schools will go up $5,000.
Also, if a private school finds it has a couple empty seats for next semester, theyll fill them with carefully chosen scholarship candidates, not the first lower middle class riffraff that comes through the door waving a voucher.
Government schools work just fine in all those countries that outperform American students.

So if government schools work "just fine" on all of those other countries, what is the other factors?

money? nope....we spend more per student than any other country
curriculum? maybe....are we too soft? do we allow the slow learners to slow down EVERYONE else
teachers? i dunno....i have met some incredible teachers over the years....and a few ROAD (retired on active duty)....i think it is the same most places....great, and not so great
parents? ding! i think we have the first of many reasons, but this one is HUGE....we are probably one of the laziest parents in the world when it comes actually getting involved in our kids education....checking homework....meeting teachers....maybe because we are trying to earn, maybe other things.....but here, the education seems to be on the back burner for many

 

[Chomsky]

Old news. National test scores have been declining steadily since the Democratic Party unconstitutionally created the Department of Education in 1980 by usurping the exclusive constitutional authority of the States. The US use to rank among the top ten industrialized nations in education before 1980, and today we are lucky to be included among the top 25. This was by design. An educated population is a direct threat to the anti-American socialist Democratic Party. Which is why basic civics was targeted as the first thing to go in public schools.

What a crock!