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Sanctions. Effective or counterproductive

US&THEM said:
Russia has big money problems. These will compound it, we will now wait to see what part China may or may not play.
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Russia's move here is in consideration of both their short and long term oil and gas goals, which are crucial to their economy. Do you really believe that Russian energy will not find a way onto the global market? Has sanctioned stopped Iranian oil from getting to market?

If you want to blame anyone for his move by Putin, blame Germany---especially Merkle. When Germany decided to shut down their nuclear energy production in a misguided environmental move; assuming to rely more heavily on renewables, it meant they would fall short of that goal and then be forced to buy MORE Russian gas. Something Donald Trump warned about it but was ignored.

This is why our global security in the west had moved to making MORE oil and gas production from the USA, Canada, and even Mexico where that was possible. Russia is a energy PRODUCING nation, and as such somewhere in the world their oil/gas is GLADLY wanted. But liberal progressive environmental lunatics would rather cripple Western Democracies in this all out rush to "save the planet" while giving POWER to the worst players in the world like Iran, Russia, China---and yeah, Saudi Arabia.

When Biden showed weakness in the Afghanistan withdrawl, he invited Putin to act boldly. Now wait for China to move on Taiwan... you know they are dying to that sooner than later. China takes Taiwan and then all of use will be wondering where to get our semi conductors from, and Putin won't be the one to worry about us shutting of technology exports, China will control most of that.
 
Lutherf said:
He's got the "unpredictable" box checked. This move was ridiculous on its own. Maybe there's more to his plan.
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unfortunately, there probably is...I would not put anything past this man now
 
Mr Person said:
We can freeze assets of individuals and companies. We can lock them out of the global financial system. We can do all sorts of things that will knock the Russian economy to its knees, and for a long time. This eventually affects ability to wage war (though they are sitting on a reserve of several hundred billion...built up specifically to resist sanctions).

A miserable people also tend not to support their leader as much.

And there's a secondary punitive purpose behind pramgatic purposes.



But this is all in answer to a false premise. You said "these Biden sanctions are going to do anything but hurt us as much or more than they hurt Putin." Given our economy and global standing relative to Russia's, no way in hell is that true.
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In essence we are entering a financial war of attrition. Who can suffer the most pain and hold out the longest. We in America are pretty spoiled and I’m not sure we’d win that war.
 
Lutherf said:
He's got the "unpredictable" box checked. This move was ridiculous on its own. Maybe there's more to his plan.
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Let us all just hope he will not go into the baltic states

'Cos that would trigger article 5...with unforeseeable consequences
 
Mach said:
Sanctions are not effectively nothing, you're misinformed on the topic.
Writing Ukraine off...nice of you. Enjoy your day free of Russian oppression.
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In case you haven’t noticed Putin has invaded Ukraine. Sanctions did nothing but let Biden pretend he’s doing something.
 
Mr P is fully prepared as all of the sanctions are 100% predictable and not really serious in real life terms .

He should start a missile base on Cuba and set the bear among the dolphins . Followed up with another missile base in, say , Venezuela .

Raise the stakes when you are winning and have been dealt the best hand .
 
Ginger Ale said:
Well, Russians do and this might just prove to be the thing that gets rid of Putin. Autocracies are difficult, but from what I hear today the businessmen in Russia are pissed and letting Putin know, and the civilians are starting to be active against this attack a gathering to protest. So, Putin personally might not give a shit, but in 2022, he might just lose his seat for not caring.
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I’m assuming Russian oligarchs were part of the decision making process on invading Ukraine and are willing to weather the storm for future financial gains.
 
george48 said:
Let us all just hope he will not go into the baltic states

'Cos that would trigger article 5...with unforeseeable consequences
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My guess is that this is a test run to see what Xi can expect if he goes into Taiwan and other parts of the Pacific. If Xi goes into Taiwan it's going to get personal. The Kavalan whisky is pretty good and not outrageously priced so if that gets cut off ol' Luther is gonna get pissed!
 
Questerr said:
He can go **** himself. Russia has no special right to access Western banking systems.
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Tough talk but calling this guys bluff would be dangerous. Biden advisors have apparently advised against it and I for once agree with them.
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
Tough talk but calling this guys bluff would be dangerous. Biden advisors have apparently advised against it and if for once agree with them.
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Not calling his bluff would be more dangerous. The Entente should have called Hitler’s bluff at Munich. It would have saved millions of lives.
 
Questerr said:
Not calling his bluff would be more dangerous. The Entente should have called Hitler’s bluff at Munich. It would have saved millions of lives.
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Fair point in hindsight but I’m not sure it’s applicable with SWIFT and Putin considering that an act of war. Things could escalate rapidly .
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
In essence we are entering a financial war of attrition. Who can suffer the most pain and hold out the longest. We in America are pretty spoiled and I’m not sure we’d win that war.
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You were asked....but I didnt see you post what actions/solutions you suggest?
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
Effectively sanctions are doing nothing. I’d lean towards writing Ukraine off but drastically building our forces in surrounding nato countries and make it clear we have a line in the sand.
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THere are major consequences to writing Ukraine off. I didnt think you were serious 😆 😆
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
Sanctions didn’t stop Putin and historically have a very poor record of success so I have to wonder if imposing them on Russia is cutting off our nose to spite our face. Gas is already high and will go higher which will drag down our economy and make inflation even worse and the Dow is crashing.
Can someone tell me exactly why these Biden sanctions are going to do anything but hurt us as much or more than they hurt Putin?
For once I’m actually indecisive on something and could be swayed either way with the right argument.
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So, then we should invade Russia? Are you or your children volunteering?
 
Lursa said:
THere are major consequences to writing Ukraine off. I didnt think you were serious 😆 😆
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It’s effectively written off. Sanctions did nothing to stop the invasion and once Russia is in complete control Ukraine isn’t coming back as an independent nation anytime soon.
 
george48 said:
I agree on SWIFT. I do think a lot of the sanctions are pretty strong...

But on SWIFT I would say this: The consideration goverments are taking, and I understand said considerations, are that Russia will only avoid SWIFT and it will only negatively affect us in the West. But to me that is not a convincing argument, since Russia could obviously avoid any sanctions we put on him.

Maybe there is a good reason SWIFT is not yet part of the sanctions, but I do not see it to be frank.
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They can simply move to bitcoin and that would negate to some level SWIFT...also Belgium would have to agree
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
It’s effectively written off. Sanctions did nothing to stop the invasion and once Russia is in complete control Ukraine isn’t coming back as an independent nation anytime soon.
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So then you dont have a solution. Got it, thanks.
 
ClaraD said:
You claim sanctions don't work...so, what's your solution?
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Sometimes there is no “solution” and you have to recognize and accept that.


Chainsawmassacre said:
Effectively sanctions are doing nothing. I’d lean towards writing Ukraine off but drastically building our forces in surrounding nato countries and make it clear we have a line in the sand.
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ClaraD said:
They can simply move to bitcoin and that would negate to some level SWIFT...also Belgium would have to agree
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Putin said he’d consider that an act of war and I take that threat seriously.
 
Chainsawmassacre said:
Sanctions didn’t stop Putin and historically have a very poor record of success so I have to wonder if imposing them on Russia is cutting off our nose to spite our face. Gas is already high and will go higher which will drag down our economy and make inflation even worse and the Dow is crashing.
Can someone tell me exactly why these Biden sanctions are going to do anything but hurt us as much or more than they hurt Putin?
For once I’m actually indecisive on something and could be swayed either way with the right argument.
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Chainsawmassacre said:
In essence we are entering a financial war of attrition. Who can suffer the most pain and hold out the longest. We in America are pretty spoiled and I’m not sure we’d win that war.
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Biden's sanctions have little effect on the price of oil. Oil prices are rising because of the potential for the Russian oil supply to lessen or cease. So, the sanctions are not contributing to inflation.

Biden's sanctions will have little effect on the U.S. economy. The sanctions are, in effect, a financial war of attrition, but it's not a matter of who will suffer the most, as we won't suffer significantly from the sanctions - Russia will.
 
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