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San Francisco may name sewage treatment plant after Bush

So now we are attacking 50% of our nation huh? I'm just going to go ahead and label your post as pointless if nobody disagrees. Anybody?

Far be it from me to defend jamesrage but I think he does have a very good point (without realizing it) about the state of partisanship in this country and how much more vile one side is than the other.

Granted, the right has it's limbaughs and coulters, but rarely will you see those who identify as "the right" mobilize to civically for the sole purpose of making such a disgusting slight against a political figure. We tend to enjoy productive and rational discussion and leave the caterwauling and insulting to the left. They pretty much own that arena anyway.
 
Bush wasn't ordained by the will of the people. He lost the popular vote. He was ordained by the Electoral College. You see, there is a double standard. Nowhere have you guys stated that actions can revoke that respect. You have said unequivocally that actions are irrelevant. No matter what happens, according to you, the office must be respected. Now if the sole reason is because of ethnocentric nationalism, then Indy's examples hold true. It's a fallacy to pretend that if every country was a "democracy" that all war would cease. People call Jimmy Carter an anti-Semite. Where's the outrage? After all, Bush won't be President anymore when this would happen. Why is it okay to talk **** behind their backs and pretend that they are the cat's meow to their face? Where is the honor in that?

I thought I did say that actions can revoke the respect? Check my Hitler post again, I said if someone is that crazy they should be ousted as in not count anymore.

I didn't know people called Jimmy Carter an Anti-Semite, maybe they shouldn't if it's not true. I can say Clinton is an adulterer. I wouldn't say that, but if I did it would be a fact. I wouldn't do it though. But slandering a president isn't nice either.
 
We tend to enjoy productive and rational discussion and leave the caterwauling and insulting to the left.

You are kidding, right? :mrgreen:
 
Far be it from me to defend jamesrage but I think he does have a very good point (without realizing it) about the state of partisanship in this country and how much more vile one side is than the other.

Granted, the right has it's limbaughs and coulters, but rarely will you see those who identify as "the right" mobilize to civically for the sole purpose of making such a disgusting slight against a political figure. We tend to enjoy productive and rational discussion and leave the caterwauling and insulting to the left. They pretty much own that arena anyway.

First if the bolded section is true then shouldn't your political leaning be listed as "conservative" or some other right leaning ideology? Not really pertinent to the discussion but just an observation. Do with it what you will.

Second, why does mobilizing to civically constitute a group as vile? Your post basically admitted that both sides were partisan and rabid but only one is going to be listed as vile? That just doesn't seem right to me. I do agree that some groups or organization who would label themselves as leftists would do and advocate things that I would consider vile, but not the group as a whole. Keep in mind we are talking about 50% of our nation here.

Let me flip it around just to show my point. What if I were to say "Bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors just goes to show how vile the right is". You see? These are specific individuals or groups who perform these actions but that statement labeled the entire right as being vile. I wouldn't consider that vile, would you? If you do then I guess I don't really have any other arguments to go off of, I'm just working under the assumption that you wouldn't be willing to label 100% of our nation as vile. :mrgreen:

Hey southernbelle do I get a thanks for posting a counter argument?
 
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First if the bolded section is true then shouldn't your political leaning be listed as "conservative" or some other right leaning ideology? Not really pertinent to the discussion but just an observation. Do with it what you will.

Second, why does mobilizing to civically constitute a group as vile? Your post basically admitted that both sides were partisan and rabid but only one is going to be listed as vile? That just doesn't seem right to me. I do agree that some groups or organization who would label themselves as leftists would do and advocate things that I would consider vile, but not the group as a whole. Keep in mind we are talking about 50% of our nation here.

Let me flip it around just to show my point. What if I were to say "Bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors just goes to show how vile the right is". You see? These are specific individuals or groups who perform these actions but that statement labeled the entire right as being vile. I wouldn't consider that vile, would you? If you do then I guess I don't really have any other arguments to go off of, I'm just working under the assumption that you wouldn't be willing to label 100% of our nation as vile. :mrgreen:

Hey southernbelle do I get a thanks for posting a counter argument?

On this post? Sure, I thanked Jailman's for the part saying that the left were the ones who were more likely then the right to purposefully embarrass somebody like naming a sewer plant after them. It is kind of true... And he said that the right is better at discussion. As I Conservative I took it as a compliment, but I do try to respect both sides, and I agree with you also Indy, I don't believe all the left are like that, and that both sides have their bad apples. :)
 
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First if the bolded section is true then shouldn't your political leaning be listed as "conservative" or some other right leaning ideology? Not really pertinent to the discussion but just an observation. Do with it what you will.

Let's keep this about the discussion and not me. Thanks.

Second, why does mobilizing to civically constitute a group as vile? Your post basically admitted that both sides were partisan and rabid but only one is going to be listed as vile? That just doesn't seem right to me. I do agree that some groups or organization who would label themselves as leftists would do and advocate things that I would consider vile, but not the group as a whole. Keep in mind we are talking about 50% of our nation here.

I think I need to repeat myself here. Civically organizing for the purpose of insult is the issue here, not just organizing at all. I live in the thick of it here and I see every day how leftist activists insult, disparage, and basically screech and keen rather than open productive discussion. This move to name a sewage treatment plant after the president just exemplifies the point I was making that the left appears to believe that stamping their foot and throwing a tantrum on the political floor is the way to get things done. And I can't really blame them for being frustrated and showing it. They lost the presidency and control of congress and when they did get control of the congress back, their party did nothing to vindicate them...it did nothing to progress their causes. Extreme elements in their party are sources of embarassment almost daily and the leaders of their party are pitifully inept and weak. The infighting with two states being all but disenfranchised has to be a blow to their confidence. And then there's Howard Dean. He's just special, isn't he? :lol:

It's no wonder they act out and lash out in the most juvenile of ways. It's the only way they feel like they are accomplishing anything at all. The gratification, though, seems to override their good sense and their motivation to make changes in their party.

Let me flip it around just to show my point. What if I were to say "Bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors just goes to show how vile the right is". You see? These are specific individuals or groups who perform these actions but that statement labeled the entire right as being vile. I wouldn't consider that vile, would you? If you do then I guess I don't really have any other arguments to go off of, I'm just working under the assumption that you wouldn't be willing to label 100% of our nation as vile. :mrgreen:

No, I wouldn't because the right has a record of condemning such actions and ousting bad seeds from their party. Human nature is deceitful and secretive and the parties can't help who chooses to identify with them. However, when they find that someone engages in unruly or unacceptable behavior, they swiftly distance themselves with straightforward condemnation. A good comparison would be the difference in how Gerry Studds and Mark Foley were treated by their respective parties. Take some time to read into the two situations and compare the end results. You can point to disturbed groups within both parties, but you will find a sharp difference in how the party handles them and there is the litmus test for me.
 
Bush does NOT... harm American citizains


After what Bush has done to this country......our economy.....our standing in the world....our military.....not to mention the thousands that have died because of this administrations lies, deception and manipulation.....how can you say that with a straight face?
 
On this post? Sure, I thanked Jailman's for the part saying that the left were the ones who were more likely then the right to purposefully embarrass somebody like naming a sewer plant after them. It is kind of true... And he said that the right is better at discussion. As I Conservative I took it as a compliment, but I do try to respect both sides, and I agree with you also Indy, I don't believe all the left are like that, and that both sides have their bad apples. :)

LOL. Thanks a bunch! I wasn't really expecting you to bother thanking me though. I guess it shows your character and willingness to see both sides. :2wave:
 
After what Bush has done to this country......our economy.....our standing in the world....our military.....not to mention the thousands that have died because of this administrations lies, deception and manipulation.....how can you say that with a straight face?

Thanks for joining into the discussion but I think we've moved past Bush specifically and are now trying to define what constitutes disrespect to the presidency and in what situations said disrespect would be acceptable. What are your thoughts?

Edit: If you've already been part of the conversation I'm sorry for not remembering. Its midnight here and I've been drinking. ;) Cheers!
 
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Let's keep this about the discussion and not me. Thanks.

No problem, just thought I'd mention it since it came to mind.

I think I need to repeat myself here. Civically organizing for the purpose of insult is the issue here, not just organizing at all. I live in the thick of it here and I see every day how leftist activists insult, disparage, and basically screech and keen rather than open productive discussion. This move to name a sewage treatment plant after the president just exemplifies the point I was making that the left appears to believe that stamping their foot and throwing a tantrum on the political floor is the way to get things done. And I can't really blame them for being frustrated and showing it. They lost the presidency and control of congress and when they did get control of the congress back, their party did nothing to vindicate them...it did nothing to progress their causes. Extreme elements in their party are sources of embarassment almost daily and the leaders of their party are pitifully inept and weak. The infighting with two states being all but disenfranchised has to be a blow to their confidence. And then there's Howard Dean. He's just special, isn't he? :lol:

Okay, if we are going to limit this only to who organizes civically for the purpose of imposing an insult on a given person then yes, I can't off the top of my head come up with an example of the right doing the same thing. Sure they have their talking heads and such, but no official movement that would equate to a similar situation. I can't go with you past that though because when we start grouping large masses of peoples together and describing them as "stomping their feet and throwing a fit" I think it becomes far to much of a generalization and adds nothing to the debate. On the matter of what the democrats have done since they have gained "power", do we really want to start this conversation here? I don't think that its really pertinent to the thread and would most likely derail any true discussion we might have been having. Same goes for the quality of the leaders of both parties. Its really neither here nor there.

It's no wonder they act out and lash out in the most juvenile of ways. It's the only way they feel like they are accomplishing anything at all. The gratification, though, seems to override their good sense and their motivation to make changes in their party.

Same thing as before. Not really something I want to go into within this thread. If you would like to start a new thread discussing this and shoot me over an private message with its title I'd be willing to talk more about this with you. I love debating! :mrgreen:

No, I wouldn't because the right has a record of condemning such actions and ousting bad seeds from their party. Human nature is deceitful and secretive and the parties can't help who chooses to identify with them. However, when they find that someone engages in unruly or unacceptable behavior, they swiftly distance themselves with straightforward condemnation. A good comparison would be the difference in how Gerry Studds and Mark Foley were treated by their respective parties. Take some time to read into the two situations and compare the end results. You can point to disturbed groups within both parties, but you will find a sharp difference in how the party handles them and there is the litmus test for me.

Debatable. The left hardly has accepted this idea into the fold. I don't really recall hearing any leader of the Democratic party mentioning this, Similar to how Republican leaders don't really jump on board with many of the rights (extremists mind you) crazy movements. If you can give me an example of the "left" uniformly jumping on board of some similar movement I'd be willing to rethink this position. I hold no loyalty to either side. Both sides have idiots, but the best we can ever hope for is a blending of the two to give us an average. The average is generally the will of the people.
 
After what Bush has done to this country......our economy.....our standing in the world....our military.....not to mention the thousands that have died because of this administrations lies, deception and manipulation.....how can you say that with a straight face?

Well, it's kind of complicated for me to explain, but simply, I think the general public puts WAY more blame on the President by himself than they should. The President is not meant to rule, that's why we have seperation of powers (I think that's the right term? You know, different branches of government). Everybody in Government had a part in the events that led up to the war before he was even elected. I don't think Bush as a person is a horrible monster and I don't blame him for the stuff that's happened. It was due to combinations of people and events and information that led to our state that we are in.

I think Clinton was a tad different in this respect because he personally embarrassed the office with his own personal actions. Still though, he wasn't a psycho either and still deserves decent civility like waving and it still wouldn't be very nice or mature to give him an embarrassing monument.
 
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Well, it's kind of complicated for me to explain, but simply, I think the general public puts WAY more blame on the President by himself than they should. The President is not meant to rule, that's why we have seperation of powers (I think that's the right term? You know, different branches of government). Everybody in Government had a part in the events that led up to the war before he was even elected. I don't think Bush as a person is a horrible monster and I don't blame him for the stuff that's happened. It was due to combinations of people and events and information that led to our state that we are in.

On the flip side, when the separation of powers is used against the president then it is labeled as "judicial activism". Kinda a catch 22, if you don't use the courts you shouldn't bitch but if you do use the courts then you are an activist.
 
On the flip side, when the separation of powers is used against the president then it is labeled as "judicial activism". Kinda a catch 22, if you don't use the courts you shouldn't bitch but if you do use the courts then you are an activist.

I don't really understand what you mean, can you give me a quick example? ^^
 
I don't really understand what you mean, can you give me a quick example? ^^

Ok, here's one I found as an example. Don't pay too much mind to where it came from, its just an example. I'm sure we could find many many other instances of this particular case being labeled as judicial activism, hell we could probably find post on this very forum.

More Judicial Activism From The Supreme Court

That's basically what I mean. The administration chose to do what they want, the SCOTUS was asked about it and they ruled against the administration. As a reward for doing so they were labeled as judicial activists. That's the catch 22 I was talking about. There are other instances and I'm sure I can find some more examples if you'd like.

BTW, it's Saturday. Shouldn't you be outside enjoying the summer? I have to wait for wifey to get home before I'm allowed to go outside and play. :2wave:
 
Mike Singletary was a great football player.

Hopefully that will be the case with Obama, like I said previously in that regard, we will survive, and the game will go on even with a bad player.

You know you have a problem if you throw your underwear up against the wall and it sticks.

"thanks for the chewing gum"

I was clearing my throat.
 
Ok, here's one I found as an example. Don't pay too much mind to where it came from, its just an example. I'm sure we could find many many other instances of this particular case being labeled as judicial activism, hell we could probably find post on this very forum.

More Judicial Activism From The Supreme Court

That's basically what I mean. The administration chose to do what they want, the SCOTUS was asked about it and they ruled against the administration. As a reward for doing so they were labeled as judicial activists. That's the catch 22 I was talking about. There are other instances and I'm sure I can find some more examples if you'd like.

BTW, it's Saturday. Shouldn't you be outside enjoying the summer? I have to wait for wifey to get home before I'm allowed to go outside and play. :2wave:

Hmm, that is a weird term for them, and there will always be Supreme Court people who disagree with any President, that's the whole point of the branches, even the Republican Presidents will be disagreed with, it's normal. :) They may be right or wrong, I'm just saying that they are supposed to disagree with the president sometimes, nothing weird about it. You should be worried if they don't sometimes lol.

And it keeps raining here, it just finished raining actually. But I do go out, I love summer. :2wave:
 
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Well, it's kind of complicated for me to explain, but simply, I think the general public puts WAY more blame on the President by himself than they should. The President is not meant to rule, that's why we have seperation of powers (I think that's the right term? You know, different branches of government).

And therein lies the problem. Bush has consistently run his administration as if there is only 1 branch of government. He accepts responsibility for nothing and claims repeatedly that he is accountable to no one.
 
And therein lies the problem. Bush has consistently run his administration as if there is only 1 branch of government. He accepts responsibility for nothing and claims repeatedly that he is accountable to no one.

How does he run it like there is only one branch?
 
After what Bush has done to this country......our economy.....our standing in the world....our military.....not to mention the thousands that have died because of this administrations lies, deception and manipulation.....how can you say that with a straight face?

Because starting ridiculous wars under false premises is not worse then getting a blowjob.
 
'Bush Lied'? If Only It Were That Simple.


By Fred Hiatt
Monday, June 9, 2008;

Search the Internet for "Bush Lied" products, and you will find sites that offer more than a thousand designs. The basic "Bush Lied, People Died" bumper sticker is only the beginning.

Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence, set out to provide the official foundation for what has become not only a thriving business but, more important, an article of faith among millions of Americans. And in releasing a committee report Thursday, he claimed to have accomplished his mission, though he did not use the L-word.

"In making the case for war, the administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when it was unsubstantiated, contradicted or even nonexistent," he said.

There's no question that the administration, and particularly Vice President Cheney, spoke with too much certainty at times and failed to anticipate or prepare the American people for the enormous undertaking in Iraq.

But dive into Rockefeller's report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.

On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."

On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."

On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information." Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence." Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."


As you read through the report, you begin to think maybe you've mistakenly picked up the minority dissent. But, no, this is the Rockefeller indictment. So, you think, the smoking gun must appear in the section on Bush's claims about Saddam Hussein's alleged ties to terrorism.

But statements regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda "were substantiated by the intelligence assessments," and statements regarding Iraq's contacts with al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." The report is left to complain about "implications" and statements that "left the impression" that those contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation.


In the report's final section, the committee takes issue with Bush's statements about Saddam Hussein's intentions and what the future might have held. But was that really a question of misrepresenting intelligence, or was it a question of judgment that politicians are expected to make?

After all, it was not Bush, but Rockefeller, who said in October 2002: "There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."


Rockefeller was reminded of that statement by the committee's vice chairman, Sen. Christopher S. Bond (R-Mo.), who with three other Republican senators filed a minority dissent that includes many other such statements from Democratic senators who had access to the intelligence reports that Bush read. The dissenters assert that they were cut out of the report's preparation, allowing for a great deal of skewing and partisanship, but that even so, "the reports essentially validate what we have been saying all along: that policymakers' statements were substantiated by the intelligence."

Why does it matter, at this late date? The Rockefeller report will not cause a spike in "Bush Lied" mug sales, and the Bond dissent will not lead anyone to scrape the "Bush Lied" bumper sticker off his or her car.

But the phony "Bush lied" story line distracts from the biggest prewar failure: the fact that so much of the intelligence upon which Bush and Rockefeller and everyone else relied turned out to be tragically, catastrophically wrong.


And it trivializes a double dilemma that President Bill Clinton faced before Bush and that President Obama or McCain may well face after: when to act on a threat in the inevitable absence of perfect intelligence and how to mobilize popular support for such action, if deemed essential for national security, in a democracy that will always, and rightly, be reluctant.

For the next president, it may be Iran's nuclear program, or al-Qaeda sanctuaries in Pakistan, or, more likely, some potential horror that today no one even imagines. When that time comes, there will be plenty of warnings to heed from the Iraq experience, without the need to fictionalize more




Fred Hiatt - 'Bush Lied'? If Only It Were That Simple. - washingtonpost.com
 
It sounds like that says it's not just Bush's fault either. I agree, I don't know why everyone always blames the presidents personally for everything. They listen to and work with so many other people.

I'd still love to know how he's POSSIBLY completely taken over the entire government and ignoring the seperation of powers. That doesn't even make sense.
 
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Link to article

Ok, this obviously isn't a change your life kind of story but still, its kinda funny. Love him or hate him you at least have to give these guys credit for being creative. Do you think it has any chance of passing?

Hmm...bad suege in, clean water out...I like it. Yes, you get to contribute with the flush of the toilet, and like his administration, the memorial will take what democrats discard, like respect for The People's tax money, and return to you clean water to drink and cook with, just like his tax cuts gave you your own money back.
 
Hmm...bad suege in, clean water out...I like it. Yes, you get to contribute with the flush of the toilet, and like his administration, the memorial will take what democrats discard, like respect for The People's tax money, and return to you clean water to drink and cook with, just like his tax cuts gave you your own money back.

You see everyone? Its possible to disagree with it and STILL have a sense of humor. +1 my good sir.
 
Yes, that was funny, indeed Jerry. :lol: Never thought of it like that. Wonder what the ones considering it would think of that, hehe.
 
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