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S.C. to Colleges: No Recruiters=No Fed. $$

Kelzie said:
Oh fair enough. So since marines used to feel uncomfortable about black people they never should have been let in, right? Wouldn't want them to hesitate. :roll:

No ones saying that you can't be gay in the military, ie, don't ask don't tell. But why do you want to add a variable to a life threatening situation that doesn't need to be there. See you don't understand the heard mentality of a large group of testosterone filled men, any percieved weakness will be used against the individual and he will be singled out. The military isn't about expressive individualism it's about conformity it's about cohesive units working in unison. The don't ask don't tell policy isn't for the protection of the straight people it's for the protection of the gay people.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No ones saying that you can't be gay in the military, ie, don't ask don't tell. But why do you want to add a variable to a life threatening situation that doesn't need to be there. See you don't understand the heard mentality of a large group of testosterone filled men, any percieved weakness will be used against the individual and he will be singled out. The military isn't about expressive individualism it's about conformity. The don't ask don't tell policy isn't for the protection of the straight people it's for the protection of the gay people.

No I do understand. It's like blackness. It's for their own protection that they shouldn't be allowed in the military. People perceive it as a weakness and single them out. The military is about conformity. Obviously can't have a few black faces when we all know how succeptable testosterone filled men are to the "herd mentality".


Shall we keep playing this game? It's rather fun. Or you could just explain to me why revealing your homosexuality makes you a bad marine. Deegan wasn't able to.
 
Kelzie said:
No I do understand. It's like blackness. It's for their own protection that they shouldn't be allowed in the military. People perceive it as a weakness and single them out. The military is about conformity. Obviously can't have a few black faces when we all know how succeptable testosterone filled men are to the "herd mentality".


Shall we keep playing this game? It's rather fun. Or you could just explain to me why revealing your homosexuality makes you a bad marine. Deegan wasn't able to.

Sexual orientation isn't the same thing as race and black people were allowed to be part of the military for a long time under a policy of segretation, this long period of segregation allowed people to come to the realization that black people were just as equal as whites on their own, because they proved it through their sacrifice and dedication that's why the military was one of the first insitutions to go through the process of desegregation. Some things are the way they are, you can't force your views on anyone no matter if they're right or not you have to let the people realize some things on their own and in the current situation a vast majority of men don't feel comfortable around homosexuals, whether it is right or wrong it still simply is. Now unless you want segregated homosexual regiments then don't ask don't tell is the best system there is given the current sociological circumstances.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Sexual orientation isn't the same thing as race and black people were allowed to be part of the military for a long time under a policy of segretation, this long period of segregation allowed people to come to the realization that black people were just as equal as whites, because they proved it through their sacrifice and dedication that's why the military was one of the first insitutions to go through the process of desegregation. Some things are the way they are, you can't force your views on anyone no matter if they're right or not you have to let the people realize some things on their own and in the current situation a vast majority of men don't feel comfortable around homosexuals, whether it is right or wrong it still simply is. Now unless you want segregated homosexual regiments then don't ask don't tell is the best system there is given the current circumstances.

Nope, try again. There were still major misgivings when they finally desegregated the military. Said a lot of the same things you people are saying now in fact.
 
easyt65 said:
The Supreme Court has declared that colleges who refuse to allow U.S. Military Recruiters on their campuses will NOT receive Federal Funds!

The S.C. has stated that Federally-funded colleges can no longer discriminate against U.S. Military recruiters simply because they do not agree with the military's "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" policy. The military recruiters must be allowed access to campuses just like any other job-fair recruiters!

....Another blow to the bastion of liberal anti-military brainwashing!

I bet recruiters all over the country are smiling right now and laughing at the anti-military liberals.
 
Kelzie said:
Nope, try again. There were still major misgivings when they finally desegregated the military. Said a lot of the same things you people are saying now in fact.

Nope try again, the movement for desegregation came from inside the military not from liberal p.c. thugs trying to push their agenda.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Nope try again, the movement for desegregation came from inside the military not from liberal p.c. thugs trying to push their agenda.

Plenty of people in the military believe that open homosexuals should serve. In fact, three retired generals not only said that, but came out of the closet at the same time.

Wanna go for three?
 
Kelzie said:
Plenty of people in the military believe that open homosexuals should serve. In fact, three retired generals not only said that, but came out of the closet at the same time.

Wanna go for three?

Good for the three retired generals now why don't you tell me something relevant.

I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find three retired generals who have thought or said just about anything.

The fact remains that you can't give me one good reason why peoples sexual orientation needs to be known.
 
Kelzie said:
Plenty of people in the military believe that open homosexuals should serve. In fact, three retired generals not only said that, but came out of the closet at the same time.

Wanna go for three?

Sort of like homosexual shrinks saying that being sexually attracted to people of the same sex is normal?I bet that is a like a crack dealer saying that crack is healthy for you or a beer company saying that 2 gallons of beer a day for twenty years can not harm the liver.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Good for the three retired generals now why don't you tell me something relevant.

I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find three retired generals who have thought or said just about anything.

The fact remains that you can't give me one good reason why peoples sexual orientation needs to be known.

You didn't ask me to prove that every person in the military supported it. I doubt every person in the military supported desegregation.

There is no reason it shouldn't be known. Hetero marines certainly have no problem sharing their sexual escapades.

And you have yet to provide a single reason why open homosexuals make bad marines.
 
jamesrage said:
Sort of like homosexual shrinks saying that being sexually attracted to people of the same sex is normal?I bet that is a like a crack dealer saying that crack is healthy for you or a beer company saying that 2 gallons of beer a day for twenty years can not harm the liver.

Wow. Good thing that has nothing to do with ANYTHING we were talking about. :roll:
 
Kelzie said:
You didn't ask me to prove that every person in the military supported it. I doubt every person in the military supported desegregation.

There is no reason it shouldn't be known. Hetero marines certainly have no problem sharing their sexual escapades.

And you have yet to provide a single reason why open homosexuals make bad marines.

On the contrary there is a good reason it shouldn't be known it's called unit cohesion.
 
Willoughby said:
so what went wrong?

Politicians like Slick Willey who believe the White House is their own playground and politicians like Kerry who believe the military is just a tool to get elected, one you can throw under the bus by telling lies in order to jump start and further your career!
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
On the contrary there is a good reason it shouldn't be known it's called unit cohesion.

For the military, unit cohesion is a matter of life and death. You can NOT afford to have a team that does not trust each other in combat. I have heard many people say that having homosexuals in the ranks would be no big deal - everyone just needs to do their job. If it were only that easy! I'm not going to send a team into a hostile area/fire fight knowing members of a team don't like each other, don't trust each other, and may just hesitate to help each other when it matters most - for WHATEVER reason.

The military can NOT be run like some corporation in the civilian world! Many people don't understand that. Most of the time, those who disagree are the ones who have never been in the military - have no experience with it, have no desire to, and do not want recruiters on campus.....yet they want to enforce their liberal/personal agenda/rules on the organization they hate.

A good example of this is the STUPID decision to make/enforce the rule about no profanity, no yelling, etc at recruits a while back. :doh The U.S. military is a whole different world from the civilian world. It is a life preparing to go to war where horrible things happen, people die, and you sometimes are called upon to kill others. Pat of thr training is a shock to the system, to strip down everything you are conditioned to in the civilian life, and re-create you in the mold of a soldier. During that 'kinder, gentler military' time, I saw Drill Sgt.s who could not make G.I.s do push ups, could not get in the face of a troop and yell at him because it would 'stress him out and upset him'.....?! :shock: If you can't handle being yelled at because you were mommy and daddy's baby, how are you gonna handle mortars hitting around you and blowing up your buddies? No one walks in and can handle that type of stuff immediately. It takes tough, rigorous, mind and body changing training! My point again is that you can NOT run the military like a civilian company.......

Of course, this has very little to do with the thread of the S.C.'s decision.

The latest I have heard is that several Law schools will allow Recruiters, but they plan on hanging banners that issue a warning about "Prejudice and/or Discriminating Recruiters" being on campus. Whatever.
 
I didn’t know of any Marines who were gay while I was serving. I did hear stories but saw nothing firsthand. I made a post asking how aggressive gay men could be and from the one reply so far I was surprised at the answer. The guy is an avid hunter and ex military...:shock:

But to be open about it in this day and time? I can see the problems that would have to be faced. Discrimination being the biggest.
It wasn’t an easy road to get over race, but we did.
As stated above it’s NOT civilian corporation Nor is it a democracy.

I’m sorry to say this but I don’t think we are ready for openly gay males to serve in combat roles. Its not to say they cant openly serve in other roles but another as stated above “Unit cohesion” has to be weighed.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t think gay males are weaker by any means. It’s the conflict among the men which I know there would be.
This line was true when I served and I know its still holds true today
“You are only as good as the person next to you”
But if you hate the person next to you then what?

Today, for now I have to say I support the don’t ask, don’t tell...
Maybe when we are out of Iraq and Afghan its something we can work out.
I will also add I do see a day when gays will serve openly, its just going to take time
I know I’m making my decisions based on limited info, maybe if I knew of or had openly gay friends then I could make a better informed decision.
 
On a related topic do you think homophobia is more present in america or jsut in the american military?
 
Kelzie said:
No I do understand. It's like blackness. It's for their own protection that they shouldn't be allowed in the military. People perceive it as a weakness and single them out. The military is about conformity. Obviously can't have a few black faces when we all know how succeptable testosterone filled men are to the "herd mentality".


Shall we keep playing this game? It's rather fun. Or you could just explain to me why revealing your homosexuality makes you a bad marine. Deegan wasn't able to.

LOL, Deegan didn't need to, people much smarter then you and I have made this determination, and I agree with it. You do not, but you want to continue to play ring around the rosie, I just tired of that game. You want it your way, and you can't have it, I understand your frustration, but I can't help you with that, sorry. I mean, I really wished we all lived in your dreamworld, and everyone was accepting of others, and we all sat around and sang happy songs, but that's not our reality. The reality is that we train grown men to kill other grown men, and these men demand very little of us, but they do demand that you don't force someones sexual preference down their throat!

Maybe we should make it fair, and we should institute a rule that says no one talks about it, but somehow I don't think that would work.
 
Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Liberals Who Run America's Colleges

KidRocks said:
Just trying to keep the war-mongers out of our schools that's all.

Again, out of the mouth of babes comes IGNORANCE.

For your information, soldeirs long for peace more than any other group in the U.S. War is the last resort of a nation used to secure a national objective. While you have the luxury and freedom, provided by the 'war mongers' you so despise, to debate the issue of war - its nuances and political ramifications - soldiers are sent away by politicians to actually fight those wars! Rich, fat, politically ambitious politicians who sit back in Washington and play political games make the decision and even often use the military as pawns in their political attacks against the other party, giving little or no thought to the actual bottom line sacrifices each and every man and woman who wears the uniform give for their country!

You remind me of the pieces of cr@p who met the soldiers returning home from Viet Nam at the airports, spat on them, cursed them, and called them names like 'baby killers'! These were kids who were DRAFTED, many not by coice, and who were given a rifle to hold in their hands instead of their prom date, and sent off to the jungles to fight a political war, a war thatcould have been won if the polticians had allowed the military to do its job! The politicians cost thousands of military ('war monger') lives to be lost unnecessarily, offered up as sacrifice! These kids fought for their country, and, instead of attacking the real people who sent them off to war, they attacked the kids who were sent off without a voice!

Today's military is a volunteer force. they are made up mostly of brave men and women who know here are bad people out there who WILL kill you and terminate this country's existence if given a chance, and that the best hope this nation has is to train, remain strong, and be ready if called upon to defeat an enemy who seeks our extinction! Cindy Sheehan tells the wolrd that her son was a complete moron hwo knew absolutely nothing about what he was doing - she belittles his dedication, his life, and his sacrifice while making a mockery of the very freedom her son died ensuring his mother has to do it! YOU belittle every soldier who is out there fighting for this country, doing what you don't have the courage or mettle to do by calling them War Mongers! If not for brave men and women serving, you would probablybe speaking German right now, Europe would be enslaved, and the world divided up possibly between germany and Japan!

Judas Priest, more Americans died on D-Day in World War 2 than in all of Iraq war so far, but the Democrats have proclaimed that we can never win this war, that we shouldn't be there because of the death toll....Thank God Kerry, Durbin, and dean weren't aroud in WW2! They would have been preaching on D-Day how we are bound to lose,that we ought to just accept our fate, and abandon the allies in Europe - declaring how we should surrender! We LIBERATED Europe from a War against a monster in Hitler, much as we did the people of Iraq from Hussein; yet, it is our own politicians and people like you who say we are 'war mongers' for doing it! According to YOU and the self-proclaimed leaders of the Dem Party, the soldiers who defeated Germany and Japan in WW2 were nothing more than 'war mongers', just as bad as the Nazis, and terrorists for terrorizing German women and children (while fighting house to house, street to street to defeat the Nazis)!

The U.S. military knows that to keep the wolves from the door, you have to have a stong military, a military that has the respect and even a little fear from the rest of the world, which is what deters any nation from attacking us!
If Clinton would have shown any backbone and responded to anyof the attacks by Al Qaeda before 9-11, it MAY have changed the outcome, MAY have prevented 9-11, and MAY have stopped the conflict that we find outrselves in now. Because of his cowardice/failure to act, we will never know. But before you start calling the military 'war mongers', etc....make sure that you know we just don't sit around drwing straws to see who we attack next - the guys who send us to war are in Washington! We don't make the call, we just answer it!
 
Willoughby said:
On a related topic do you think homophobia is more present in america or jsut in the american military?

You have no comprehension of the term or importance of 'unit cohesion'. The very comment demonstrates ignorance. If you think the military can and/or should be run like some civilian corporation, then you are even dumber than that comment makes you sound!
 
Take it easy, easy. The youngster is one of those who b!tch and bad mouth the cops, but when he needs one? Where the hell are they? It's really easy to b!tch about things like this, and there is a simple solution. Don't let the military recruiters on campus.
You still have freedom of speech. You just have to accept the responsibility for not practicing it. How? You have the right to say what you want wherever? Then why do you want to deny that same right to the military? That is a double standard and thus you are talking out the side of your mouth.
If you want to ban them, then be mature enough to do so and realize that your tuition costs will go up when those funds get cut. So time to put up, or shut up, as the old saying goes.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
On the contrary there is a good reason it shouldn't be known it's called unit cohesion.

And why exactly would cohesion be a problem with an open homosexual marine?
 
Deegan said:
LOL, Deegan didn't need to, people much smarter then you and I have made this determination, and I agree with it. You do not, but you want to continue to play ring around the rosie, I just tired of that game. You want it your way, and you can't have it, I understand your frustration, but I can't help you with that, sorry. I mean, I really wished we all lived in your dreamworld, and everyone was accepting of others, and we all sat around and sang happy songs, but that's not our reality. The reality is that we train grown men to kill other grown men, and these men demand very little of us, but they do demand that you don't force someones sexual preference down their throat!

Maybe we should make it fair, and we should institute a rule that says no one talks about it, but somehow I don't think that would work.

You know it's funny. Those men used to have another rule. "We don't serve with blacks". They thought it would hurt their cohesions, see. Didn't really trust blacks, in fact they were kind of nervous around them. And the leaders said tough ****. To everyone's surprise, there were almost no problems.

It is the exact same situations.

An open gay has no traits that would make him a bad marine. The only problem is that the other marines are scared of him and will "hesitate" or whatever word you want to use. Same problems with blacks. Wasn't actually the color of their skin that was the problem, it was the way the other marines perceived them.
 
danarhea said:
Where I disagree is what we are actually debating about. To me, the issue is not whether the military should be able to recruit on campus in order to receive Federal funding. The real issue should be why the government should take our money, via taxes, and then redistribute it to the schools. I have always believed that private enterprise is much more efficient than allowing the Federal government to run the schools. If the Federal government nationalized the beer industry, they could not make it for under a hundred bucks a six pack.

Therefore, if the government is no longer in the business of education, then logic dictates that the schools would have the right to either admit or deny recruiters on campus. Of course, I would hope that they admit the recruiters, but with the government out of the business of education, this issue therefore becomes none of my business, unless I happen to reside in the school district where that particular decision is being made.

:shock: OhIsee...man, I am right there with you on that one - thank you for clarifying! Haven't you heard, though? The goverment can provide you with better and cheaper Federally funded health care, the best retirement account (Social security), the best public education/schools/colleges, steroid/drug-free baseball players, and more! (SARCASM ALERT!) I would be glad to see the Federal govt butt out of a LOT of places!
 
easyt65 said:
You have no comprehension of the term or importance of 'unit cohesion'. The very comment demonstrates ignorance. If you think the military can and/or should be run like some civilian corporation, then you are even dumber than that comment makes you sound!


Exactly.............With liberals its all about political correctness and wanting to make the military a social experiment........What they so conveniently ignore is the military is there to fight our wars and protect this country......
 
easyt65 said:
You have no comprehension of the term or importance of 'unit cohesion'. The very comment demonstrates ignorance. If you think the military can and/or should be run like some civilian corporation, then you are even dumber than that comment makes you sound!

Let's refrain from calling others dumb, eh?
 
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