Russia's piracy and kidnapping of 25 November 2018

[Chagos]

Because of the new bridge, and because of Kiev's irresponsible encouragement of terrorism to 'blow up the bridge', Russia has needed to implement security measures.


As part of that, Kiev now needs to file plans and receive permission to transit under the bridge.


They failed to receive permission. But they have only their own appeals to terrorists to blame.


So foolish and short sighted to become hostile to Russia .

Sudetenland argument for the umpteenth time, easily recognizable by anyone of even remote intelligence and bound to be denied by anyone lacking even the remotest sense of honesty.

No doubt will just as much serve as future "justification":roll: on further encroachment upon sovereign soil of another state, like Germany eventually occupying the whole of Czechoslovakia.

If allowed, that is.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Because of the new bridge, and because of Kiev's irresponsible encouragement of terrorism to 'blow up the bridge', Russia has needed to implement security measures.

Give me a quote where Poroshenko ordered someone 'to blow up the bridge'.

No Russian sources.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because of the new bridge, and because of Kiev's irresponsible encouragement of terrorism to 'blow up the bridge', Russia has needed to implement security measures.


As part of that, Kiev now needs to file plans and receive permission to transit under the bridge.


They failed to receive permission. But they have only their own appeals to terrorists to blame.


So foolish and short sighted to become hostile to Russia .

Sounds like a whole lot of after the fact excuses for Russians acting badly and hijacking Ukrainian ships in open sea.

Oh, and the Crimean annexation isn't recognized so the Russia/Crimea bridge is illegal.

 

[Westphalian]

Sounds like a whole lot of after the fact excuses for Russians acting badly and hijacking Ukrainian ships in open sea.

Oh, and the Crimean annexation isn't recognized so the Russia/Crimea bridge is illegal.

The ships were eventually stopped in open sea, but they were in Russian waters when challenged and then fled like cowards.


Regarding Crimea and the bridge - they do physically exist and are controlled by Russia. That is never going to change.


So let me ask you, what is your solution?

Should the West continue, in perpetuity, to cling onto a de jure interpretation of what is legally correct thereby permanently estranging Russia and causing a problem with European security?

Or should the West recognise de facto reality, and normalise relations with Russia in the interests of European and greater global security and co-operation?

 

[Chagos]

Should the West continue, in perpetuity, to cling onto a de jure interpretation of what is legally correct thereby permanently estranging Russia and causing a problem with European security?

Of course. Which (see appeasement politics of the late 1930s) would cause less problems with European security than allowing Kremlin thugs to run with impudence.

Or should the West recognise de facto reality, and normalise relations with Russia in the interests of European and greater global security and co-operation?

Nope, never. Because that wouldn't serve interests of either European or global security.

And the comment you made previously about the Ukrainian ships having violated Russian waters is one of your usual lies, in that the Kerch Straits are not exclusively Russian.

No matter how much you try to make the Russian annexation of their Western half legal.

 

[Fledermaus]

The ships were eventually stopped in open sea, but they were in Russian waters when challenged and then fled like cowards.


Regarding Crimea and the bridge - they do physically exist and are controlled by Russia. That is never going to change.


So let me ask you, what is your solution?

Should the West continue, in perpetuity, to cling onto a de jure interpretation of what is legally correct thereby permanently estranging Russia and causing a problem with European security?

Or should the West recognise de facto reality, and normalise relations with Russia in the interests of European and greater global security and co-operation?

Russian waters?

Show me.

As to the bridge. Your statement indicates you don't care about illegal activity by Russia.

Might makes right, eh?

And the solution is for Russia to allow free transit to the Sea of Azov since it is not theirs...

Followed by the return of territories that are Ukrainian.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Give me a quote where Poroshenko ordered someone 'to blow up the bridge'.

No Russian sources.

Still waiting Westphalian. You stated the above as a justification for kidnapping Ukrainian sailors and their ships.

Now I want you to show me where Poroshenko (Kyiv) ordered someone to blow up the bridge.

No Russian sources. (not credible)

 

[Rogue Valley]

Ukraine hostages and POWs held in Donbas.

Today is the birthday of kidnapped Ukrainian sailor Vladislav Kostyshin who is still imprisoned in Moscow. Best wishes to him.

 

[Westphalian]

Give me a quote where Poroshenko ordered someone 'to blow up the bridge'.

No Russian sources.

:lamo

:lamo

I'm not going to confine us to sources approved by you, or exclude Russian sources because you don't like them.


Who do you think you are? Hitler? Stalin? Ray Bradbury?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

 

[Westphalian]

Still waiting Westphalian. You stated the above as a justification for kidnapping Ukrainian sailors and their ships.

Now I want you to show me where Poroshenko (Kyiv) ordered someone to blow up the bridge.

No Russian sources. (not credible)

It wasn't Poroshenko, but I never said it was.


Here's an account in the Irish Times which explains the need for enhanced security given Kiev's record of sponsoring or authoring terrorism through its security services. Maybe Ireland, as a neutral state, has a more free press than NATO members which are probably full of people like you who seem to want to sensor freedom:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/russian-perspective-on-kerch-strait-incident-1.3714950


There is a procedure in place – requirement to notify the administration of Kerch seaport 48 or 24 hours in advance, get the ship inspected (usually takes no more than three hours), get a sea master on board and join the convoy for the passage.

There are two basic reasons for this procedure. First, security of the Crimean bridge – the need for additional security measures is highlighted by a large number of committed or prevented sabotage and terrorist acts by Ukrainian nationalists with support of the Kiev government (in particular, blowing up the power lines in the Kherson region in 2015 in order to “de-energise” the Crimea; prevented attempt to scatter cables in the shipping channel of the Kerch Strait in June 2016, open calls by Ukrainian politicians to demolish the Crimean bridge).

 

[marke]

Kidnapped UA sailor as prisoner in occupied Crimea.

Russian (in)justice in progress. Ukrainian lawyers were refused access to 24 UA sailors kidnapped by Russia. The 24 kidnapped sailors were brought before a Russian government judge in occupied Crimea and ordered held in confinement until January 28. Yesterday, Russian FSB security agents transferred the 24 kidnapped Ukrainian sailors to the infamous old KGB Lefortovo prison in Moscow. Moscow plans to "show trial" the UA sailors in groups of six, reminiscent of Stalin's show trials.
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Empty Russian freighter blocking passage under the illegal Crimea Bridge.

Below the illegal Crimea Bridge -- the international waters of the Black Sea. Above the illegal Crimea Bridge -- the waters of the Sea of Azov which are jointly owned (treaty) by Ukraine and Russia.

In the image above, ships near the Kerch Strait on November 25 are represented as yellow circles. Russia's illegal Crimea Bridge which connects Russia (right) with Ukraine's occupied Crimea oblast (left) bisects the Kerch Strait midway on a horizontal axis. There is also a line bisecting the Kerch Strait on a vertical axis, with Ukrainian waters on the left and Russian waters on the right. The red circles are ship status on November 27. Note that ships bound for Russian ports on the Sea of Azov are allowed to sail on (top right red circles). Ships bound for Ukrainian ports on the Sea of Azov are not allowed to sail on (top left red circles).
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Sailing manifest of the UA Navy ships from Odesa to Mariupol. They were intercepted by Russian navy craft in the
international waters of the Black Sea prior to reaching the Kerch Strait.

Ukraine can prove, via maritime-tracking open-sources such as MarineTraffic.com and VesselFinder.com that its 3 Navy ships where located in the international waters of the Black Sea southeast of Crimea when attacked by Russian Navy craft.
All Russia can offer is a biased and self-serving account by the FSB (The internal Russian security service. Previously the KGB).

Russians have shot down more than 3 airliners filled with civilians in the past 50 years. They are a godless nation brutally ruled by godless oligarchs. That is more reason Americans should thank God for America.

 

[Westphalian]

Russians have shot down more than 3 airliners filled with civilians in the past 50 years. They are a godless nation brutally ruled by godless oligarchs. That is more reason Americans should thank God for America.

Can you list those curiously described 'more than 3' please?

 

[marke]

Can you list those curiously described 'more than 3' please?

I can only post these off-hand:

1940 - Kaleva OH-All
1978 - KAL 902
1983 - KAL 007
2014 - Malasia Airlines Flight 17

 

[Westphalian]

I can only post these off-hand:

1940 - Kaleva OH-All
1978 - KAL 902
1983 - KAL 007
2014 - Malasia Airlines Flight 17

Thanks.


Nobody claims that MH17 was shot down by Russia. The official report says it was shot down by a missile launched from Ukraine.


Regarding the others, of course there were reasons and the US military was particularly contributory to KAL007.

 

[Fledermaus]

:lamo

:lamo

I'm not going to confine us to sources approved by you, or exclude Russian sources because you don't like them.


Who do you think you are? Hitler? Stalin? Ray Bradbury?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

So, no evidence.

 

[Fledermaus]

Thanks.


Nobody claims that MH17 was shot down by Russia. The official report says it was shot down by a missile launched from Ukraine.


Regarding the others, of course there were reasons and the US military was particularly contributory to KAL007.

The official report DOES NOT say the Ukrainians did it. The official report speaks of a Russian launcher under the Seperatists and illegally in Ukraine territory having fired the missile.

 

[Chagos]

Thanks.


Nobody claims that MH17 was shot down by Russia. The official report says it was shot down by a missile launched from Ukraine.

Lying again no. 1

Regarding the others, of course there were reasons and the US military was particularly contributory to KAL007.

Lying again no. 2

 

[marke]

Thanks.


Nobody claims that MH17 was shot down by Russia. The official report says it was shot down by a missile launched from Ukraine.


Regarding the others, of course there were reasons and the US military was particularly contributory to KAL007.

Ted Kennedy sought Russian help to defeat Reagan in the 1984 election. That makes me suspicious of democrat efforts to enlist Russian aid to shoot down the plane carrying Jesse Helms to a conference in Korea. It is by the grace of God and the incompetence of the Russian military that they shot down a different plane that night instead.

 

[Westphalian]

Lying again no. 1

Why are you, yes you, lying about lying Chagos?


Do you know where Pervomaisk is?


Read what I said, read the report, and retract your false accusation.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/24/europe/mh17-plane-netherlands-russia-intl/index.htm


The Buk missile was fired from a farm near Pervomaisk, the Joint Investigation Team into the MH17 disaster told a news conference in the Netherlands.


"At the time this area was under control of pro-Russian separatists," said Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor of the National Prosecutor's Office of the Netherlands. The Buk launcher of the 9M38 series "was transported from the territory of the Russian Federation and was returned to that territory of the Russian Federation afterwards."
Westerbeke highlighted how "this raises questions such as to whether the brigade was actively involved in downing MH17. It is an important question which the JIT are still investigating."

 

[Westphalian]

The official report DOES NOT say the Ukrainians did it. The official report speaks of a Russian launcher under the Seperatists and illegally in Ukraine territory having fired the missile.

In other words, a missile definitely fired from Ukraine, probably by Ukrainian separatists :roll:


No mention of Russia or Russians.


Much as you people want to blame it on Russia, there is no evidence in the report that it was done by Russians.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Why are you, yes you, lying about lying Chagos?


Do you know where Pervomaisk is?


Read what I said, read the report, and retract your false accusation.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/24/europe/mh17-plane-netherlands-russia-intl/index.htm


The Buk missile was fired from a farm near Pervomaisk, the Joint Investigation Team into the MH17 disaster told a news conference in the Netherlands.

How disingenuous.

Yes, it was launched from what was Ukrainian soil. It was fired however by Russian backed separatists using a Russian supplied BuK.

 

[Westphalian]

How disingenuous.

Yes, it was launched from what was Ukrainian soil. It was fired however by Russian backed separatists using a Russian supplied BuK.

it's not dis-ingenuous at all. It makes what I said TRUE.


The missile was fired from Ukraine, and the evidence suggests by Ukrainian separatists.


This matters because it means that there is no evidence of the involvement of Russians or Russian army personnel. If this evidence existed it would suggest that the Russia state was culpable. This is an important distinction, although clearly in your brain-washed minds Russia is guilty of everything so my pointing out the actual evidence is probably a shock.

 

[Jredbaron96]

it's not dis-ingenuous at all. It makes what I said TRUE.


The missile was fired from Ukraine, and the evidence suggests by Ukrainian separatists.

You're purposely trying to pin the blame on Ukraine. That's disingenuous.

MH17 was brought down by a Russian supplied Buk. If Moscow hadn't given it to the Separatists, then MH17 doesn't get shot down.

 

[Rogue Valley]

You're purposely trying to pin the blame on Ukraine. That's disingenuous.

MH17 was brought down by a Russian supplied Buk. If Moscow hadn't given it to the Separatists, then MH17 doesn't get shot down.

Your conversing with a Russian ... a Putin defender and apologist at that.

 

[Westphalian]

You're purposely trying to pin the blame on Ukraine. That's disingenuous.

MH17 was brought down by a Russian supplied Buk. If Moscow hadn't given it to the Separatists, then MH17 doesn't get shot down.

No - I'm just stating the facts.

This was fired from Ukraine, over Ukrainian airspace, and probably by Ukrainians

I haven't said the Kiev did it, I've just pointed out the facts which really do matter when it comes to legal culpability.

The problem is that propaganda has morphed the blame in your mind entirely to Russia.

Now when I point out the facts I'm accused by some of lying such is the triumph of blind hate over actual facts.