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Russia's piracy and kidnapping of 25 November 2018

Rogue Valley

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Kidnapped UA sailor as prisoner in occupied Crimea.

Russian (in)justice in progress. Ukrainian lawyers were refused access to 24 UA sailors kidnapped by Russia. The 24 kidnapped sailors were brought before a Russian government judge in occupied Crimea and ordered held in confinement until January 28. Yesterday, Russian FSB security agents transferred the 24 kidnapped Ukrainian sailors to the infamous old KGB Lefortovo prison in Moscow. Moscow plans to "show trial" the UA sailors in groups of six, reminiscent of Stalin's show trials.
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Empty Russian freighter blocking passage under the illegal Crimea Bridge.



Below the illegal Crimea Bridge -- the international waters of the Black Sea. Above the illegal Crimea Bridge -- the waters of the Sea of Azov which are jointly owned (treaty) by Ukraine and Russia.

In the image above, ships near the Kerch Strait on November 25 are represented as yellow circles. Russia's illegal Crimea Bridge which connects Russia (right) with Ukraine's occupied Crimea oblast (left) bisects the Kerch Strait midway on a horizontal axis. There is also a line bisecting the Kerch Strait on a vertical axis, with Ukrainian waters on the left and Russian waters on the right. The red circles are ship status on November 27. Note that ships bound for Russian ports on the Sea of Azov are allowed to sail on (top right red circles). Ships bound for Ukrainian ports on the Sea of Azov are not allowed to sail on (top left red circles).
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Sailing manifest of the UA Navy ships from Odesa to Mariupol. They were intercepted by Russian navy craft in the
international waters of the Black Sea prior to reaching the Kerch Strait.


Ukraine can prove, via maritime-tracking open-sources such as MarineTraffic.com and VesselFinder.com that its 3 Navy ships where located in the international waters of the Black Sea southeast of Crimea when attacked by Russian Navy craft.
All Russia can offer is a biased and self-serving account by the FSB (The internal Russian security service. Previously the KGB).
 

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The question is not 'where were they finally captured' but 'Why did they violate Russian waters prior to fleeing back to international water'?

To nobody's surprise, you are obsessed with the former but ignore the latter.

The tactics and propaganda line were planned by Kiev and co-ordinated by the Ukr intelligence officers who just happened to be on the vessels.
 

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The lovely map with the close details including the bridge and lots of Russian and Ukrainian ship fails to present the exact locations and approaches of the Ukrainian vessels. Since it is omitted, it is assumed it is an attempt to mislead the viewer. The area of dispute is within this map,not the Sea of Azov or the Black Sea.
/
 

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The question is not 'where were they finally captured' but 'Why did they violate Russian waters prior to fleeing back to international water'?
Where exactly are Russian waters in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov? Be specific.
 

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The lovely map with the close details including the bridge and lots of Russian and Ukrainian ship fails to present the exact locations and approaches of the Ukrainian vessels. Since it is omitted, it is assumed it is an attempt to mislead the viewer. The area of dispute is within this map,not the Sea of Azov or the Black Sea.
/
The precise ship location information and distress message location (government/open source) was supplied to ambassadors/governments, the UN Security Council, and the Maritime Arbitration Court.

This information is also available to all littoral nations on the Black Sea (coastline radar), commercial/military ship radar, and reconnaissance aircraft.

Well Fagan, it's obvious that you really don't know much about the maritime world. Must have been a grunt if military at all.
 

DaveFagan

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The precise ship location information and distress message location (government/open source) was supplied to ambassadors/governments, the UN Security Council, and the Maritime Arbitration Court.

This information is also available to all littoral nations on the Black Sea (coastline radar), commercial/military ship radar, and reconnaissance aircraft.

Well Fagan, it's obvious that you really don't know much about the maritime world. Must have been a grunt if military at all.
Naval aircrewman Vietnam. I understand. They were close inshore to Crimea (Russian). That was the problem. I think you know that but avoid the admission.A Crimean judge put them in jail until January. About 60 days. Reasonable sentence for espionage. Perhaps the two Ukraine Intelligence Officers will get a little extra.
/
 

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Naval aircrewman Vietnam. I understand. They were close inshore to Crimea (Russian). That was the problem. I think you know that but avoid the admission.A Crimean judge put them in jail until January. About 60 days. Reasonable sentence for espionage. Perhaps the two Ukraine Intelligence Officers will get a little extra.
/
They were never closer than 12 miles south of Crimea. Besides, Crimea is Ukrainian territory. You seem to conveniently forget that fact.
 

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They were never closer than 12 miles south of Crimea. Besides, Crimea is Ukrainian territory. You seem to conveniently forget that fact.
You ignore two important points. First: The Crimeans didn't recognize the CIA/NED/USA Coup d'Etat in Ukraine. Second: Crimea voted overwhelmingly to be annexed by Russia. End of story./
 

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They were never closer than 12 miles south of Crimea. Besides, Crimea is Ukrainian territory. You seem to conveniently forget that fact.

Well, I suggest you go there and tell everybody you can find :2wave:
 

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You ignore two important points. First: The Crimeans didn't recognize the CIA/NED/USA Coup d'Etat in Ukraine. Second: Crimea voted overwhelmingly to be annexed by Russia. End of story./
You ignore some basic truths; (1) No referendum under military occupation is recognized as valid and (2) The Constitutions of Ukraine and Crimea stated that any proposed change in the status of Crimea could only be decided by an all-Ukraine referendum.

Try again.
 

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Russia Attacks Ukrainian Ships and International Law

Russian 'creeping annexation' hits Ukraine in Sea of Azov

Russia Opens a New Front in Its War Against Ukraine: the Sea of Azov

Fundamental primers above on how Putin can bring economic/social pressures to bear on Kyiv by a naval military occupation of the mutually-shared Sea of Azov.

Piracy on the high seas is another facet of the "hybrid warfare" the Russian Federation has been waging against Ukraine since spring of 2014.

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Legal primers.....

The General Assembly today affirmed its commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, political independence, unity and territorial integrity within its internationally recognized borders, underscoring the invalidity of the 16 March referendum held in autonomous Crimea. the Assembly adopted a resolution titled “Territorial integrity of Ukraine”, calling on States, international organizations and specialized agencies not to recognize any change in the status of Crimea or the Black Sea port city of Sevastopol, and to refrain from actions or dealings that might be interpreted as such. The Assembly called on States to “desist and refrain” from actions aimed at disrupting Ukraine’s national unity and territorial integrity, including by modifying its borders through the threat or use of force.
General Assembly Adopts Resolution Calling upon States Not to Recognize Changes in Status of Crimea Region
The Parties, proceeding from the necessity of conservation of the Azov-Kerch defined area of water as integral economic and natural complex, to be used in the interests of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine, have agreed as follows: 1) The sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch are historically internal waters of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine. 2) The sea of Azov must be delimited by the state border in accordance with the Agreement signed by the Parties. 3) Dispute settlement regarding the issues pertaining to the defined area of water of Kerch must be regulated by agreement between the Parties. 4) Mercantile vessels and other state non-commercial vessels flying the flags of the Russian Federation and the Ukraine have free navigation in the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch. 5) Russian-Ukrainian cooperation in the spheres of navigation, fisheries, protection of marine environment, ecological safety and life-saving in the sea of Azov and the strait of Kerch must be implemented on the basis of existing international agreements and by conclusion, in respective cases, of the new ones.
Agreement between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on cooperation in the use of the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch - 2003
All ships, including foreign warships, enjoy the right of "innocent passage" within another state's territorial sea under international law.

A number of States unlawfully require prior notification before a foreign warship may conduct innocent passage through their territorial waters, but most of these States do not specify when the foreign warship must provide the notification. A larger number of States not only unlawfully require notification but also unlawfully require that prior permission be granted.

The seizure of a vessel while transiting a strait used for international navigation may be viewed as a violation of a coastal nation’s obligations under the UNCLOS. Article 44 of the UNLCOS prohibits the hampering or suspension of transit passage by coastal nations.
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS)
 

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You ignore two important points. First: The Crimeans didn't recognize the CIA/NED/USA Coup d'Etat in Ukraine. Second: Crimea voted overwhelmingly to be annexed by Russia. End of story./
I tend to believe the US gets too involved but Ukraine wanted into the EU long ago and Yanukovych instead took billion$ from Putin and refused.

Can't put the revolution to remove him entirely on us. I know it is just a question ultimately, just what bankers you wish to borrow from but the west

is better even then.

Let us also not forget that Stalin forcibly took Ukraine of which Crimea was a part, under collectivization and starved millions.

So anything political since Ukraine's coming to the west and at the behest of Putin, I take with many grains of salt because the suggestion

that Crimea voted out...is very suspect.
 

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Naval aircrewman Vietnam. I understand. They were close inshore to Crimea (Russian). That was the problem. I think you know that but avoid the admission.A Crimean judge put them in jail until January. About 60 days. Reasonable sentence for espionage. Perhaps the two Ukraine Intelligence Officers will get a little extra.
/
It doesn't matter who was on board. Can the US navy sail the seas with intelligence officers on bd. ? If not can Russia take them too ?
 

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I tend to believe the US gets too involved but Ukraine wanted into the EU long ago and Yanukovych instead took billion$ from Putin and refused.

Can't put the revolution to remove him entirely on us. I know it is just a question ultimately, just what bankers you wish to borrow from but the west

is better even then.

Let us also not forget that Stalin forcibly took Ukraine of which Crimea was a part, under collectivization and starved millions.

So anything political since Ukraine's coming to the west and at the behest of Putin, I take with many grains of salt because the suggestion

that Crimea voted out...is very suspect.
I understand everything you say and it has partial truth. The CIA endeavors in Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Latin and South America represent legendary notoriety and present a track record of shame for the USA. The USA policy, aptly characterized by the PNAC document, is revealed to be hegemonistic globalization in economics as well as all things military. We use the USDollar as a weapon. Control banking and World trade with monopoly measures. Use sanctions and tariffs as weapons. These measures will all assure blowback and some will be seen immediately after the Argentina conference. I don't remember any election that requested permission to attempt to control the World. We are not on moral high ground. We have left death and destruction in our recent wake for all the World to see, and they see it. As do I. Russian behavior is saintly compared to ours. How many died in Crimea? How many in Kiev?
 

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It doesn't matter who was on board. Can the US navy sail the seas with intelligence officers on bd. ? If not can Russia take them too ?
You can sail the seas, but must recognize boundaries and the Crimean boundaries are not Ukrainian. You can't sail inside the 12 mile limit of Crimea just because you are Ukrainian and are attempting to maintain a myth of ownership. Simple trespass, nothing more. It will cause the EU to roll over (maintain) the sanctions against Russia and that may be the causative factor. This has been a carefully planned Ukranian trespass. Testing the waters, don't ya' know?
/
 

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They were never closer than 12 miles south of Crimea. Besides, Crimea is Ukrainian territory. You seem to conveniently forget that fact.
Well your beloved bellingcat says otherwise, infact by their report russia seems to be the most truthfull with the least inconsistencies.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/11/30/investigating-the-kerch-strait-incident/comment-page-1/#comments

Heck the fsb even admitted they shot the ukrainian ship outside russian waters, however the clash started before that, literally near the bridge, so to say they never went closer than 12 miles to crimea is bs and bellingcat pointed it out. I already questioned ukrainian reports when some of the initial reports claimed russia used missiles from jets to attack the boats, but anyone with half a brain knew a missile from a su30 would disinigrate a tiny coastal vessal.

Also to note the fsb hit their own ship by accident which they admitted. Either way the bellingcat investgigation shows the ukrainian ships and the russians started their scuffle near the bridge and afterwards started to retreat, with the ukrainian ship getting fired on right outside national boundaries as they were fleeing.

So is bellingcat now rt propoganda too?
 

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Well your beloved bellingcat says otherwise, infact by their report russia seems to be the most truthfull with the least inconsistencies.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/11/30/investigating-the-kerch-strait-incident/comment-page-1/#comments

Heck the fsb even admitted they shot the ukrainian ship outside russian waters, however the clash started before that, literally near the bridge, so to say they never went closer than 12 miles to crimea is bs and bellingcat pointed it out. I already questioned ukrainian reports when some of the initial reports claimed russia used missiles from jets to attack the boats, but anyone with half a brain knew a missile from a su30 would disinigrate a tiny coastal vessal.

Also to note the fsb hit their own ship by accident which they admitted. Either way the bellingcat investgigation shows the ukrainian ships and the russians started their scuffle near the bridge and afterwards started to retreat, with the ukrainian ship getting fired on right outside national boundaries as they were fleeing.

So is bellingcat now rt propoganda too?


I pointed this out twice already and RV has studiously ignored it. The selective use of a point in time map was lamentably predictable.


Here's the summary of the Bellingcat article. I include the whole summary for balance:

From this information, several things are made clear. Firstly, based on geolocated video footage, Ukrainian ships did enter Russian territorial waters, both that of Crimea and mainland Russia in the Kerch Strait. Ukraine nonetheless argues this was legally permissible due to the 2003 agreement between the two countries. Secondly, we can say that the Ukrainian tug ‘Yani Kapu’ was intentionally rammed at least four times over a period of at least an hour. Thirdly, based on information provided by the Russian FSB which appears to incriminate themselves, the shooting of the ‘Berdyansk’ most likely took place in international waters.
 

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Well your beloved bellingcat says otherwise
You obviously didn't comprehend what you were [supposedly] reading.

The first is that the Russian vessel ‘Don’ rammed the ‘Yany Kapu’ twice. Once at 07:35 at the location (44°56’00″N 36°30’08″E) and a second time at 7:44 at (44°56’06″N 36°30’05″E).

Bellingcat - Investigating The Kerch Strait Incident
Google maps - 44°56’00″N 36°30’08″E

Google Maps - 44°56’06″N 36°30’05″E


You also conveniently neglected to read the cited legal primers in Post #12. And then there is this.....

It is also worth noting that Ukraine, as well as most Western countries, does not recognise Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and by extension its territorial sea. Moreover, Ukraine has cited a 2003 agreement with Russia that denotes the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait as a shared waterway, allowing free passage. It is also worth noting that Ukraine, as well as most Western countries, does not recognise Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and by extension its territorial sea. Moreover, Ukraine has cited a 2003 agreement with Russia that denotes the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait as a shared waterway, allowing free passage.
Bellingcat - Investigating The Kerch Strait Incident
and this....

Summary:
From this information, several things are made clear. Firstly, based on geolocated video footage, Ukrainian ships did enter Russian-claimed territorial waters, both that of Crimea and mainland Russia in the Kerch Strait. Ukraine nonetheless argues this was legally permissible due to the 2003 agreement between the two countries. Secondly, we can say that the Ukrainian tug ‘Yani Kapu’ was intentionally rammed at least four times over a period of at least an hour. Thirdly, based on information provided by the Russian FSB which appears to incriminate themselves, the shooting of the ‘Berdyansk’ most likely took place in international waters.
Bellingcat - Investigating The Kerch Strait Incident
Some advice. No one with even half-a-brain relies on any narrative of the Russian FSB (the former KGB). We've seen their "versions" of events such as the MH17 shoot-down and the Salisbury Novichok poisonings.
 

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Kidnapped UA sailors now imprisoned in Moscow.
 

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G7 foreign ministers’ statement on recent events near Kerch Strait

Statement
November 30 2018 – Ottawa, Ontario - Global Affairs Canada

“We, the G7 foreign ministers of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and the High Representative of the European Union, express our utmost concern about Russia's actions against Ukraine in the Kerch Strait and surrounding waters, ‎which have dangerously raised tensions. There is no justification for Russia’s use of military force against Ukrainian ships and naval personnel.

“We urge restraint, due respect for international law, and the prevention of any further escalation. We call on Russia to release the detained crew and vessels and refrain from impeding lawful passage through the Kerch Strait.

“We, the G7, once again reiterate that ‎we do not, and will never, recognize Russia’s illegal annexation of the Crimean peninsula, and we reaffirm our unwavering support for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity.‎”
 

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You obviously didn't comprehend what you were [supposedly] reading.



Google maps - 44°56’00″N 36°30’08″E

Google Maps - 44°56’06″N 36°30’05″E


You also conveniently neglected to read the cited legal primers in Post #12. And then there is this.....



and this....



Some advice. No one with even half-a-brain relies on any narrative of the Russian FSB (the former KGB). We've seen their "versions" of events such as the MH17 shoot-down and the Salisbury Novichok poisonings.
Arguing that they do not recognize crimea as russian does not justify anything, just like russia sending warships to alaska because they do not view american ownership of alaska would get their ships nothing but sunk, when it comes to territorial waters, who controls it well controls it, claiming it was not their waters is a weak argument, and fyi that area the clash started was in russian territorial waters even if crimea was not counted, so that goes to the 2003 agreement. The 2003 agreement has a framework though for travel in the azov involving the others territorial waters, and what remains is whether or not ukraine abided by those rules or intentionally provoked the russians.

However bellingcat already shown the fsb info was dead on and verifiable, while the ukrainian info was barely there vague and full of holes. To make it worse ukraine at one point claimed a missile hit their artillery boat causing damage, a vessal that tiny would not survive a missile strike from a su-30, however the damage shown in the pictures matches the damage of a artillery boat or a smaller sized coastal defense corvette.
https://www.stripes.com/news/ukraine-says-russian-jet-fired-missiles-during-clash-at-sea-1.558182

Further questioning besides even bellingcat questioning ukraines statement is why no one is questioning why the mayday call was made after the russian ships followed and fired on them and not during the clash in the area near the bridge.
 

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Ukraine-Russia crisis: Future of Azov ports under threat as Moscow steps up economic blockade

Two major Ukraine ports, Mariupol and Berdyansk, are under Russian blockade. Would be similar to a foreign blockade of the US ports of Los Angeles and San Diego.


Merkel and Putin agree to more talk on Ukraine

With her push for Russia's Nordstream II and her satisfaction with "lower level talks" on the Russian piracy of 25 November, Merkel is pretty much a useless appeaser.
They're all asleep.
 

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Ukraine-Russia crisis: Future of Azov ports under threat as Moscow steps up economic blockade

Two major Ukraine ports, Mariupol and Berdyansk, are under Russian blockade. Would be similar to a foreign blockade of the US ports of Los Angeles and San Diego.


Merkel and Putin agree to more talk on Ukraine


With her push for Russia's Nordstream II and her satisfaction with "lower level talks" on the Russian piracy of 25 November, Merkel is pretty much a useless appeaser.

Do those ports lie in an inland sea shared with another state? :shock:


Germany isn't interested in fighting a war in Europe.
 
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