Russian Soldiers Refuse To Fight as Morale Deteriorating, Ukraine Says

[Juin]

so do we all now agree that Trump's genius isn't a genius?

you know, he's just evil like Trump.

I disagree both are evil.

 

[ataraxia]

Do you really need to be walked through that? lol

Threatening Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration and potential NATO membership, full member state membership, recalling that NATO is a Russo hostile military alliance. Helping to install right wing nationalists ( coup of 2014) that are also Russophobic types who set about attacking the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine leading to a civil war ? Revamping and promoting the adoration of Nazi collaborators such as Stepan Bandera etc etc

William Burns, in 2008 , predicted it to a tee. He's probably quiet about it right now but he cannot deny the prediction he made nor the accuracy of it.

Russian paranoia about NATO is a self-fulfilling prophecy. At one point Russia itself was being considered for membership into NATO. That would have been a very nice deterrent against China as a rising global Communist force. Putin shot himself in the foot with all his adventurism in first Georgia, then Crimea, and not the rest of Ukraine.

There's so many better ways he could be spending the time, energy, and resources of his country than trying to recapture the glory of the 17th century Russian empire.

 

[CaughtInThe]

I disagree both are evil.

shocker

 

[oneworld2]

Interesting post. Do you have links to sources that back up your 3 points.
If so, please provide them.

I always have links, the others not so much .

Point 1 is easy enough

The North Atlantic Alliance was founded in the aftermath of the Second World War. Its purpose was to secure peace in Europe, to promote cooperation among its members and to guard their freedom – all of this in the context of countering the threat posed at the time by the Soviet Union.​

​

Why was NATO founded? - We are NATO

We are NATO, Every day, NATO Allies work and train together to keep our citizens safe. Through partnership and cooperation, NATO has secured peace and freedom for nearly 70 years.

www.nato.int

The Warsaw Pact was formed as a response

point 2

NATO joint exercises, training and arms sales to/between Ukraine

exercises

Ukraine holds military drills with U.S. forces, NATO allies

Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops on Monday, at a time when neighbouring Russia and Belarus have been holding large-scale drills that alarmed the West.

www.reuters.com

training, the base the Russians just blew up, this is where tha Ukrainian soldiers were NATO trained and where the foreign fighters into Ukraine were sent

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www.nato.int

arms sales

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www.cato.org

building of military bases by UK, see last line in the BBC propaganda piece, It's the last line because most people never make it to the last line and they know this

HMS Defender: Russian jets and ships shadow British warship

More than 20 jets and two coastguard ships shadow HMS Defender as it sails near Crimea's coast.

www.bbc.co.uk

from the uk gov site

UK signs agreement to support enhancement of Ukrainian naval capabilities

In a trilateral agreement signed onboard HMS Defender, which was in Odesa as part of the Carrier Strike Group deployment, the UK, Ukraine and industry will collaborate to boost Ukraine’s naval capabilities.

www.gov.uk

point 3

In January 2008, US Senator Richard Lugar said: "Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliamentary Chairman Arsenii Yatseniuk have signed the statement calling for consideration on Ukraine's entry into the NATO via the MAP programme at the Bucharest summit."[39]

IBID

At the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO decided it would not yet offer membership to Georgia and Ukraine; nevertheless, NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said that Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members.[47] Resistance was reportedly met from France and Germany.[48]

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the NATO MAP system was brought in in 1999 the same year the first 3 eastern European members of NATO joined

NATO membership signed into Ukrainian law

Poroshenko Signs Law Allowing NATO Bid

President Petro Poroshenko has signed a law abandoning Ukraine's neutral "non-bloc" status, and said Ukrainians will decide whether the country should seek NATO membership once it meets the standards of the Western military alliance.

www.rferl.org

Would Ukraine Breach its own Constitution if it Dropped its NATO Bid?

Among the many issues discussed in the context of the current Russian threat of aggression against Ukraine, Ukraine’s NATO aspirations and Russian opposition to it joining this organization is prominent.(( Some scholars believe that Ukrainian membership of NATO

verfassungsblog.de

Now you can ask the others for references and sources , lol

 

[Juin]

Russian paranoia about NATO is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Nato is not the world's most powerful military organization? If it is then it's approach must be of utmost concern to Russia.

At one point Russia itself was being considered for membership into NATO.

As a vassal.

That would have been a very nice deterrent against China as a rising global Communist force.

China is not communist

Putin shot himself in the foot with all his adventurism in first Georgia, then Crimea, and not the rest of Ukraine.

Gee. what a dummy Putin is. He should have just sat in Moscow and watched the Russian naval base at Sevastopol handed to Nato by Ukraine. And for good measure have Georgia invite more Nato assault teams in. What you are suggesting is as silly as someone advising JFK to just allow Khruschev plant a few nukes in Cuba. Not many, just a few.

Heck, maybe JFK should have applied for membership in the Warsaw Pact

There's so many better ways he could be spending the time, energy, and resources of his country than trying to recapture the glory of the 17th century Russian empire

He just wants Nato far from him

 

[oneworld2]

Russian paranoia about NATO is a self-fulfilling prophecy. At one point Russia itself was being considered for membership into NATO. That would have been a very nice deterrent against China as a rising global Communist force. Putin shot himself in the foot with all his adventurism in first Georgia, then Crimea, and not the rest of Ukraine.

There's so many better ways he could be spending the time, energy, and resources of his country than trying to recapture the glory of the 17th century Russian empire.

You have it the wrong way around. Western inspired anti Soviet/Russian paranoia was used to eastward expand NATO, and make western arms maunfacturers an absolute fortune btw, has been a self fullfilling prophecy in initiating a Russian response.

The setting up of Russia is just the first part of the setting up of both Russia and China because they dare to question western hegemony. If you don't see that you haven't been paying attention imo

 

[ataraxia]

As a vassal.

Says who? Putin? Russian propaganda?

For a while there it looked like Russia was on its way to becoming a respected member of the international community of developed western nations. There was even talk of Russia joining the EU.


"

Post-Cold War cooperation[edit]​

Following the fall of the Berlin Wall in Germany, NATO and the Soviet Union (now Russia) began to engage in talks on several levels, including a continued push for arms control treaties such as the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe. Soviet Foreign Minister Shevardnadze made a first visit to NATO Headquarters on 19 December 1989, followed by informal talks in 1990 between NATO and Soviet military leaders.[11] In June 1990 the message from Turnberry has been described as "the first step in the evolution of [modern] NATO-Russia relations".[12] The NATO Secretary General, Manfred Wörner, would visit Moscow in July 1990, to discuss future cooperation, a first for NATO–Russia relations.[13]

In 1991, as the Soviet Union was dissolved, Russian president Boris Yeltsin sent a letter to NATO, suggesting that Russia's long-term aim was to join NATO.[14]

Formal contacts and cooperation between Russia and NATO began in 1991, within the framework of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (later renamed Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council), and were further deepened as Russia joined the Partnership for Peace program on 22 June 1994.[15]

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, 1997[edit]​

On 27 May 1997, at the NATO Summit in Paris, France, NATO and Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, a road map for would-be NATO-Russia cooperation.[16][17][18]

It set up a new forum: the "NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council" (PJC) as a venue for consultations, cooperation and consensus building. There was no provision granting NATO or Russia any veto powers over the actions of the other. NATO said it had no plans to station nuclear weapons in the new member states or send in new permanent military forces. The parties stated they did not see each other as adversaries, and, "based on an enduring political commitment undertaken at the highest political level, will build together a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic area on the principles of democracy and cooperative security".[19]

Cooperation, 2009–2014​

In December 2009, NATO approached Russia for help in Afghanistan, requesting permission for the alliance to fly cargo (including possibly military ones) over Russian territory to Afghanistan, and to provide more helicopters for the Afghan armed forces.[20] However Russia only allowed transit of non-military supplies through its territory.[21]

On 6 June 2011, NATO and Russia participated in their first ever joint fighter jet exercise, dubbed "Vigilant Skies 2011". Since the Cold War, this is only the second joint military venture between the alliance and Russia, with the first being a joint submarine exercise which begun on 30 May 2011.[22]"

Russia–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So what changed? Was it the west wanting to make Russia a vassal state? No. It was unprovoked territorial and geopolitical aggression by Putin- reverting to archaic 17th century mindsets of trying to regain the glory of the Russian empire. The modern world and economy has no room for that nonsense. If that's what Putin wants for Russia, they can go have their 17th century economy. The modern world is moving on.

 

[ataraxia]

You have it the wrong way around. Western inspired anti Soviet/Russian paranoia was used to eastward expand NATO, and make western arms maunfacturers an absolute fortune btw, has been a self fullfilling prophecy in initiating a Russian response.

The setting up of Russia is just the first part of the setting up of both Russia and China because they dare to question western hegemony. If you don't see that you haven't been paying attention imo

The modern west stands for democracy and free trade- the foundations of democracy, the modern world, and economy. What does Russia stand for?

 

[Mach]

You have it the wrong way around. Western inspired anti Soviet/Russian paranoia was used to eastward expand NATO, and make western arms maunfacturers an absolute fortune btw, has been a self fullfilling prophecy in initiating a Russian response.

Blaming the west once again, for Putin's choices to invade neighbors and his choice to be adversarial towards NATO.
Why can't you place blame where it belongs? Putin is the bad actor here, the rest is in response to his bad behavior.

The setting up of Russia is just the first part of the setting up of both Russia and China because they dare to question western hegemony. If you don't see that you haven't been paying attention imo

Poor Russia, "set up" by NATO to be an aggressor nation....such nonsense.

 

[oneworld2]

The modern west stands for democracy and free trade- the foundations of democracy, the modern world, and economy. What does Russia stand for?

Oh please, you would have to be ten to believe that rubbish

The western promoters of democracy were the ones helping the Ukrainian right seize power off the back of a peaceful protest to overthrow Ukrainian democracy in 2014

When the Palestinians voted in Hamas the promoters of democracy initiated a Fatah coup to destroy it. Countless other examples abound of the contempt for democracy and the support for antidemocratic govts that are friendly to western interests

 

[Juin]

Says who? Putin? Russian propaganda?

I see, Russia is not entitled its own case.

For a while there it looked like Russia was on its way to becoming a respected member of the international community of developed western nations. There was even talk of Russia joining the EU.

Well, apparently Russia did not care to join. It is her right.

"

Post-Cold War cooperation[edit]​

 

[Juin]

The modern west stands for democracy and free trade- the foundations of democracy, the modern world, and economy. What does Russia stand for?

Leaving a few debris like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam in its wake.

 

[Juin]

Blaming the west once again, for Putin's choices to invade neighbors and his choice to be adversarial towards NATO.
Why can't you place blame where it belongs? Putin is the bad actor here, the rest is in response to his bad behavior.

Objecting to a hostile military alliance implanting itself on Russia's periphery is not bad behaviour

Poor Russia, "set up" by NATO to be an aggressor nation....such nonsense.

 

[mike2810]

I always have links, the others not so much .

Point 1 is easy enough

​

Why was NATO founded? - We are NATO

We are NATO, Every day, NATO Allies work and train together to keep our citizens safe. Through partnership and cooperation, NATO has secured peace and freedom for nearly 70 years.

www.nato.int

The Warsaw Pact was formed as a response



Now you can ask the others for references and sources , lol

You said:
"1 NATO was founded with Russia in the crosshairs . When the USSR fell Russian enquiries to become a NAO member themselves fell of deaf US ears. The eastward expansion of this Russo targeting military alliance was in contravention of assurances given to the Russians""

The link to the NATO site does not support your statement of "with Russia in the crossharis"..
It also does not support your statement of Russia asking to be a member and the US ignored the request.

From the NATO site. Post the exact quote and link that said NATO was formed to target Russia, Russia requested to be a member and the US ignored the request.

I won't go into your other points because the link you provided failed the first point.

As far as asking others for links. I do when I am curious if they can support their statements.

 

[watsup]

So, I reserve my judgement on virtually everything coming out of Ukraine at the moment

Great! We reserve our judgement on EVERYTHING coming out of you at the moment. Putin loves you.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Poor Russia, "set up" by NATO to be an aggressor nation....such nonsense.

And he pushes this nonsense all day here at DP.

 

[watsup]

Objecting to a hostile military alliance implanting itself on Russia's periphery is not bad behaviour

“Object” all you want. Invading an independent democratic nation is a war crime in and of itself and Putin had no “rightL to do so no matter how many lame excuses that you make for him. And BTW, Putin loves you.

 

[watsup]

Leaving a few debris like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam in its wake.

Whataboutism.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Under Yeltsin, NATO offered to make Russia an Associate Member. (the first step towards full membership).

From Yeltsin on, Russia could attend all NATO meetings until the Kremlin invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022.

Permament Mission of the Russian Federation to Nato (Canceled due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine)

 

[watsup]

I see, Russia is not entitled its own case.

When “its own case” is brutally invading an independent democratic nation, the answer is a resounding NO! Period.

 

[ataraxia]

Objecting to a hostile military alliance implanting itself on Russia's periphery is not bad behaviour

The relations started souring after Putin's unprovoked invasion of Georgia.

This had nothing to do with the west supporting rightwing government in Ukraine. It's clearly all just a pattern of a broader agenda of territorial expansion, that's all. All this nonsense about Nazis in Ukraine is also a laughably silly excuse for the same. I wonder what excuse they will make when they invade the Baltic countries. Putin still thinks this is the 17th century or something.

Get rid of the clown if you like Russia. He is destroying your country.

 

[Juin]

“Object” all you want.

Russia is the one objecting to Nato expansionism

Invading an independent democratic nation is a war crime in and of itself and Putin had no “rightL to do so no matter how many lame excuses that you make for him. And BTW, Putin loves you.

Putin did not invade Iraq.

 

[Juin]

When “its own case” is brutally invading an independent democratic nation, the answer is a resounding NO! Period.

The invasion is to forestall a foreign hostile military alliance implanting itself on Russia's periphery

 

[bluesmoke]

I want to believe that this is a trend. I fear that a there is a huge offensive about to start in the East and that it will be manned by mercenaries from Syria if Putin cannot scrape up enough Russians to throw at Ukraine (which I believe he can). I am very, very worried about the East. And I think when Mariupol is uncovered it will show carnage like that never seen anywhere before.

You mean anywhere in Ukraine? Before, so far, since the war was initiated in 2014? Please clarify.

 

[Juin]

The relations started souring after Putin's unprovoked invasion of Georgia.

You saw nothing untoward about Mikhail Saakeshvili's blitz unto the separatist regions that wanted no part of Georgia?

This had nothing to do with the west supporting rightwing government in Ukraine. It's clearly all just a pattern of a broader agenda of territorial expansion, that's all. All this nonsense about Nazis in Ukraine is also a laughably silly excuse for the same. I wonder what excuse they will make when they invade the Baltic countries. Putin still thinks this is the 17th century or something.

Nato was grooming Ukraine and Georgia for acession. That project carried to fruition would have seen Russia lose its Sevastopol naval base and dominance of the Black Sea. Putin would have been remiss in his duties as President of Russia if he had not acted to forestall that project by Nato.

Get rid of the clown if you like Russia. He is destroying your country.

Are you pretending now to have Russia's best interest at heart, even as you advocate the encroachment into its periphery of a military alliance hostile to it? Come on!