Russian Soldiers Refuse To Fight as Morale Deteriorating, Ukraine Says

[oneworld2]

Russia is the one who invaded Ukraine. Not vice versa. How would the US "using Ukrainians as proxies" cause Russia to invade?

Do you really need to be walked through that? lol

Threatening Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration and potential NATO membership, full member state membership, recalling that NATO is a Russo hostile military alliance. Helping to install right wing nationalists ( coup of 2014) that are also Russophobic types who set about attacking the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine leading to a civil war ? Revamping and promoting the adoration of Nazi collaborators such as Stepan Bandera etc etc

William Burns, in 2008 , predicted it to a tee. He's probably quiet about it right now but he cannot deny the prediction he made nor the accuracy of it.

 

[watsup]

Russia is the one who invaded Ukraine. Not vice versa. How would the US "using Ukrainians as proxies" cause Russia to invade?

The “proxy” bit is just more repetitive silliness from oneworld2 as usual. He has made that statement hundreds of times over the past few weeks. Repetition is all he knows. Putin loves him.

 

[watsup]

Do you really need to be walked through that? lol

Threatening Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration and potential NATO membership, full member state membership, recalling that NATO is a Russo hostile military alliance. Helping to install right wing nationalists ( coup of 2014) that are also Russophobic types who set about attacking the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine leading to a civil war ? Revamping and promoting the adoration of Nazi collaborators such as Stepan Bandera etc etc

William Burns, in 2008 , predicted it to a tee. He's probably quiet about it right now but he cannot deny the prediction he made nor the accuracy of it.

More Putin propagandic lies.

 

[lwf]

Do you really need to be walked through that? lol

Threatening Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration and potential NATO membership, full member state membership, recalling that NATO is a Russo hostile military alliance. Helping to install right wing nationalists ( coup of 2014) that are also Russophobic types who set about attacking the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine leading to a civil war ? Revamping and promoting the adoration of Nazi collaborators such as Stepan Bandera etc etc

William Burns, in 2008 , predicted it to a tee. He's probably quiet about it right now but he cannot deny the prediction he made nor the accuracy of it.

1. NATO was not a Russo hostile military alliance in 2021. That is just an excuse Putin used to justify military action against Ukraine.
2. NATO never threatened Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration. Ukraine was never eligible for NATO membership.
3. Russia annexed Crimea before Ukraine ever even asked to join NATO. It was the reason they sought NATO membership, even though NATO was never interested.

The reason for the Ukrainian invasion was that Vladimir Putin wants to regain territory that the Soviet Union lost upon dissolution. He can blame the US all he wants, but it doesn't change the facts. The US and NATO had nothing to do with it, and Russia is the sole aggressor in this war.

 

[oneworld2]

1. NATO was not a Russo hostile military alliance in 2021. That is just an excuse Putin used to justify military action against Ukraine.
2. NATO never threatened Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration. Ukraine was never eligible for NATO membership.
3. Russia annexed Crimea before Ukraine ever even asked to join NATO. It was the reason they sought NATO membership, even though NATO was never interested.

The reason for the Ukrainian invasion was that Vladimir Putin wants to regain territory that the Soviet Union lost upon dissolution. He can blame the US all he wants, but it doesn't change the facts. The US and NATO had nothing to do with it, and Russia is the sole aggressor in this war.

You are just confirming what I already know to be the truth, you haven't a clue about any of this and appear to be trying to bluff your way through it .

1 NATO was founded with Russia in the crosshairs . When the USSR fell Russian enquiries to become a NAO member themselves fell of deaf US ears. The eastward expansion of this Russo targeting military alliance was in contravention of assurances given to the Russians

2 NATO collaboration with Ukraine, military exercises with Ukraine, arming training of Ukrainain military along with plans for new military bases in Ukraine built with funding from NATO etc etc all threaten Russias national security interests. Why? Because it is but a small step for Ukraine to have become a full member state of the NATO alliance and that could mean, in the face of the US abandoning all of the military ballistic missile treaties by 2018, US based and operated missile systems right along the western border od Russia. This wa even spoken about as being part of the 2022 Ukraine defence assistance from the US govt itself

3 Ukraine first asked to be considered for NATO membership in January 2008 when it applied for a NATO Membership Action Plan ( MAP). Later that year at the NATO summit it was announced that both Georgia and Ukraine would become members of NATO at some future date. In 2014 NATO membership was given " priority "status by the Ukrainian govt. In 2019 it was signed into Ukrainian national law

So, as you can see, the Ukraine started its bid to become a NATO member 6 whole years before the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea

Evidently you haven't much of a clue about the Ukrainian position on NATO membership nor how it impacts on Russian national security concerns, and I guess you aren't even bothered about such, but the Russians are.

I am not going to waste time going on a huge tit for tat debate with you on this because you are not remotely interested in finding out the truth about how and why we got here. You have your position built on whjat the western MSM has fed you and you will not be budging from it anytime soon, no matter what you are shown.

 

[Roadvirus]

" Ukraine says"

The propaganda war wages on and people have forgotten the Snake Island baloney already

And i'm sure you could care less about that "Bucha baloney", right?

 

[watsup]

You are just confirming what I already know to be the truth, you haven't a clue about any of this and appear to be trying to bluff your way through it .

1 NATO was founded with Russia in the crosshairs . When the USSR fell Russian enquiries to become a NAO member themselves fell of deaf US ears. The eastward expansion of this Russo targeting military alliance was in contravention of assurances given to the Russians

2 NATO collaboration with Ukraine, military exercises with Ukraine, arming training of Ukrainain military along with plans for new military bases in Ukraine built with funding from NATO etc etc all threaten Russias national security interests. Why? Because it is but a small step for Ukraine to have become a full member state of the NATO alliance and that could mean, in the face of the US abandoning all of the military ballistic missile treaties by 2018, US based and operated missile systems right along the western border od Russia. This wa even spoken about as being part of the 2022 Ukraine defence assistance from the US govt itself

3 Ukraine first asked to be considered for NATO membership in January 2008 when it applied for a NATO Membership Action Plan ( MAP). Later that year at the NATO summit it was announced that both Georgia and Ukraine would become members of NATO at some future date. In 2014 NATO membership was given " priority "status by the Ukrainian govt. In 2019 it was signed into Ukrainian national law

So, as you can see, the Ukraine started its bid to become a NATO member 6 whole years before the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea

Evidently you haven't much of a clue about the Ukrainian position on NATO membership nor how it impacts on Russian national security concerns, and I guess you aren't even bothered about such, but the Russians are.

I am not going to waste time going on a huge tit for tat debate with you on this because you are not remotely interested in finding out the truth about how and why we got here. You have your position built on whjat the western MSM has fed you and you will not be budging from it anytime soon, no matter what you are shown.

More repetitive lies.

 

[Chagos]

NATO did not invade Russia and did not even invade Ukraine, the truth that our resident whatabouter on here is blathering about is that Russia invaded Ukraine.

Anyone interested in finding any truth on here can refer to what Putin and his lying acolytes blather and then assume the direct opposite to be it (truth).

 

[mike2810]

You are just confirming what I already know to be the truth, you haven't a clue about any of this and appear to be trying to bluff your way through it .

1 NATO was founded with Russia in the crosshairs . When the USSR fell Russian enquiries to become a NAO member themselves fell of deaf US ears. The eastward expansion of this Russo targeting military alliance was in contravention of assurances given to the Russians

2 NATO collaboration with Ukraine, military exercises with Ukraine, arming training of Ukrainain military along with plans for new military bases in Ukraine built with funding from NATO etc etc all threaten Russias national security interests. Why? Because it is but a small step for Ukraine to have become a full member state of the NATO alliance and that could mean, in the face of the US abandoning all of the military ballistic missile treaties by 2018, US based and operated missile systems right along the western border od Russia. This wa even spoken about as being part of the 2022 Ukraine defence assistance from the US govt itself

3 Ukraine first asked to be considered for NATO membership in January 2008 when it applied for a NATO Membership Action Plan ( MAP). Later that year at the NATO summit it was announced that both Georgia and Ukraine would become members of NATO at some future date. In 2014 NATO membership was given " priority "status by the Ukrainian govt. In 2019 it was signed into Ukrainian national law

So, as you can see, the Ukraine started its bid to become a NATO member 6 whole years before the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea

Evidently you haven't much of a clue about the Ukrainian position on NATO membership nor how it impacts on Russian national security concerns, and I guess you aren't even bothered about such, but the Russians are.

I am not going to waste time going on a huge tit for tat debate with you on this because you are not remotely interested in finding out the truth about how and why we got here. You have your position built on whjat the western MSM has fed you and you will not be budging from it anytime soon, no matter what you are shown.

Interesting post. Do you have links to sources that back up your 3 points.
If so, please provide them.

 

[watsup]

Interesting post. Do you have links to sources that back up your 3 points.
If so, please provide them.

And it is interesting that none of oneworld2’s “points” actually “JUSTIFIES” Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. It remains the whim decision of an evil murderous thug.

 

[mike2810]

And it is interesting that none of oneworld2’s “points” actually “JUSTIFIES” Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. It remains the whim decision of an evil murderous thug.

Agree.
Why Putin decided to invade Ukraine is a puzzlement. imo, they posed no threat to Russia. It seems clear the Ukraine people do not want to be under Putin rule.

 

[Fledermaus]

By citing that Ukrainain propagandists are already shown to be unreliable.

The question was:

How did your rather silly statement "undermine" his posts?

Yep ,proxies, quite a common occurance(sic) for the USA foreign policy gurus to employ

PROXY......... EVERYONE DRINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chagos]

Agree.
Why Putin decided to invade Ukraine is a puzzlement. imo, they posed no threat to Russia. It seems clear the Ukraine people do not want to be under Putin rule.

It's about liberating the Ukrainian people (never mind that in Putin's eyes there's no such thing, seeing how they're all Russian anyway) from the Nazi drug addicts that are suppressing them all.

Clearly you didn't get the Olgino memo while oneworld2 just as clearly did..

 

[Fledermaus]

Do you really need to be walked through that? lol

Threatening Russia with Ukrainian NATO collaboration and potential NATO membership, full member state membership, recalling that NATO is a Russo hostile military alliance. Helping to install right wing nationalists ( coup of 2014) that are also Russophobic types who set about attacking the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine leading to a civil war ? Revamping and promoting the adoration of Nazi collaborators such as Stepan Bandera etc etc

William Burns, in 2008 , predicted it to a tee. He's probably quiet about it right now but he cannot deny the prediction he made nor the accuracy of it.

NATO "collaboration"?

You do know if Ukraine had actually joined NATO none of this would be happening....

Right?

Oh, and the old worn out NAZI card doesn't play.

 

[mike2810]

It's about liberating the Ukrainian people (never mind that in Putin's eyes there's no such thing, seeing how they're all Russian anyway) from the Nazi drug addicts that are suppressing them all.

Clearly you didn't get the Olgino memo while oneworld2 just as clearly did..

Yep. missed the memo.

 

[Chagos]

Yep. missed the memo.

No worries, just read oneworld2's posts and you'll be really up down to date.

 

[mike2810]

No worries, just read oneworld2's posts and you'll be really up down to date.

I will just wait for Trump's tweet.
oh wait, he can't anymore.

 

[lwf]

You are just confirming what I already know to be the truth, you haven't a clue about any of this and appear to be trying to bluff your way through it .

1 NATO was founded with Russia in the crosshairs . When the USSR fell Russian enquiries to become a NAO member themselves fell of deaf US ears. The eastward expansion of this Russo targeting military alliance was in contravention of assurances given to the Russians

2 NATO collaboration with Ukraine, military exercises with Ukraine, arming training of Ukrainain military along with plans for new military bases in Ukraine built with funding from NATO etc etc all threaten Russias national security interests. Why? Because it is but a small step for Ukraine to have become a full member state of the NATO alliance and that could mean, in the face of the US abandoning all of the military ballistic missile treaties by 2018, US based and operated missile systems right along the western border od Russia. This wa even spoken about as being part of the 2022 Ukraine defence assistance from the US govt itself

3 Ukraine first asked to be considered for NATO membership in January 2008 when it applied for a NATO Membership Action Plan ( MAP). Later that year at the NATO summit it was announced that both Georgia and Ukraine would become members of NATO at some future date. In 2014 NATO membership was given " priority "status by the Ukrainian govt. In 2019 it was signed into Ukrainian national law

So, as you can see, the Ukraine started its bid to become a NATO member 6 whole years before the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea

Evidently you haven't much of a clue about the Ukrainian position on NATO membership nor how it impacts on Russian national security concerns, and I guess you aren't even bothered about such, but the Russians are.

I am not going to waste time going on a huge tit for tat debate with you on this because you are not remotely interested in finding out the truth about how and why we got here. You have your position built on whjat the western MSM has fed you and you will not be budging from it anytime soon, no matter what you are shown.

1. The United States was founded with Great Britain in its crosshairs. That doesn't mean that the United States was a threat to Great Britain in 2021. NATO may have been founded as a defensive alliance against the threat of Russian expansionism, but it was never a threat to Russia's legitimately held borders in 2021.

2. This all occurred AFTER the annexation of Crimea. And NATO exercises on Ukrainian soil were never a threat to Russia. Modern day NATO has never had Russia in its crosshairs. NATO seeks no Russian territory. The threat is an imaginary device that Vladimir Putin is using to justify invading a sovereign country and killing civilians.

3. Nice try. What you are referring to was a short lived bid that was completely abandoned in 2010 when Viktor Yanukovych became president. Ukraine had NO plans to join NATO in the years leading up to the Crimean invasion. ZERO. Putin even flat out stated that the purpose of the annexation of Crimea was to return the former Soviet territory to Russia. NATO had nothing to do with it.

You are mistaken about Russian motivations here. NATO has never been a threat to Russia as it stands. It is a threat to Putin's military expansionistic aims. These are not the same thing. The only way to justify the Ukrainian invasion is to conflate the two, and that seems to be your goal here.

 

[oneworld2]

And i'm sure you could care less about that "Bucha baloney", right?

I referred to the Snake Island baloney, you have me quoted as mentioning a " Bucha baloney". Obviously a misuse, and an interntional one, of the quotation marks. It's actually fine, I have gotten so use to these underhanded tactics now that you just accept them even though it speaks volumes about the people who resort to them and how desperate they are to hide the fact that they are struggling to argue points without resorting to them.

As you know, or should know by now, I usually reserve my judgement until more is known about alleged war crimes and/or actual war crimes, you just appear to repeat and rinse claims based on who has made them and who is the object of demonisation off the back of them. Wholly predictable and biased imo but it's your choice to be both.

Bucha is an interesteing subject. Everybody here appears to KNOW who did what to those people without much in the way of evidence having been supplied. But that's what you people do and that's why you are sure to have to scuttle around later in a bid to justify your ridiculous approaches.

A video I want watch has been reported to show Ukrainian troops killing Russian pows in much the same way that some of those bodies lying on the streets of Bucha and in the same vicinity. IIRC its part of a NYT article. The Washington Post also has cited reports of Ukrainian forces placing their tanks guns etc in front of/ in between residential buildings, thus possibility being guilty of the use of civilians as human shields.

The Russians have asked for a UN investigation into the deaths/ Bucha incident and the UK , as chair of the UNSC, has refused twice afaik.

So, I reserve my judgement on virtually everything coming out of Ukraine at the moment because the truth is the first casualty of war and the fog machines are working overtime.

So, you can just carry on believing everything that is coming from the Ukrainian side and is being parroted by the media here BUT I will guarantee you will be doing more climb down than a skyscraper window cleaner as time and truth catches up with events.

You didn't learn anything from Snake Island and you won't learn anything about most other things that you are compelled to believe without evidence because your mind is completely closed, that much is abundantly clear

 

[oneworld2]

1. The United States was founded with Great Britain in its crosshairs. That doesn't mean that the United States was a threat to Great Britain in 2021. NATO may have been founded as a defensive alliance against the threat of Russian expansionism, but it was never a threat to Russia's legitimately held borders in 2021.

Even amongst the junk, you are compelled to concede why NATO was set up and who it was aimed at. After the collapse of the USSR and enquiries from Russia about possible NATO membership for themselves it becomes blatantly obvious to all but Western/NATO apologists who the alliance is set up against. It has also morphed further more recently into the aggressive arm of US foreign policy with NATO members and /NATO operations being found in the ME and as we will see soon, Asia itself

2. This all occurred AFTER the annexation of Crimea. And NATO exercises on Ukrainian soil were never a threat to Russia. Modern day NATO has never had Russia in its crosshairs. NATO seeks no Russian territory. The threat is an imaginary device that Vladimir Putin is using to justify invading a sovereign country and killing civilians.

I never claimed otherwise, I stated. correctly, that NATO and the Ukrainian military were forging ever more close and strategically important relations. Joint exercises , arms. training, base building etc etc all of which is true, so the charge that Ukraine was fast becoming a defacto NATO state with US boots on the ground there is undeniable

Like an American can try to lecture someone on the illegality of invading a " soveriegn country and killing civilians". You people are hysterical in the depths of self deception and flagrant hypocrisy you pump out without the slightest hint of irony

3. Nice try. What you are referring to was a short lived bid that was completely abandoned in 2010 when Viktor Yanukovych became president. Ukraine had NO plans to join NATO in the years leading up to the Crimean invasion. ZERO. Putin even flat out stated that the purpose of the annexation of Crimea was to return the former Soviet territory to Russia. NATO had nothing to do with it.

Not a " nice try" but a factually correct point. The two, the 2008 Ukraine application for NATO MAP status and the NATO 2008 Bucharest summit statement outlining that both Georgia and Ukraine will be future members, are a hand in glove duo of the history of Ukraine/NATO relations and possible Ukrainian NATO member state reality.

It was obvious that you would start moving the goalposts in a bid to wriggle out of the nonsense contained in your first response. No acknowledgement of the changes since the 2014 US backed coup , the commitment to it and then the writing of it into the Ukrainian Constitution

You are mistaken about Russian motivations here. NATO has never been a threat to Russia as it stands. It is a threat to Putin's military expansionistic aims. These are not the same thing. The only way to justify the Ukrainian invasion is to conflate the two, and that seems to be your goal here.

It is yourself that is mistaken and in denial of the threat and threatening history of NATO towards the Russians. When people refer to NATO as a defensive alliance you KNOW they are hopeless homers having to ignore the reality of NATO attacks and NATO member attacks of others all around the globe. Do they not count becuase many / most of them have darker faces?

 

[oneworld2]

NATO "collaboration"?

You do know if Ukraine had actually joined NATO none of this would be happening....

Right?

Oh, and the old worn out NAZI card doesn't play.

Yes NATO collaboration that I cited many examples of and so you just laugh because you cannot refute it lol

If the US had not wrecklessly invited both Ukraine and Georgia to become NATO members none of this would have happened. George Kennan warned about the NATO expansion eastward. William Burns made in 2008 as accurate a prediction of this as I have yet to see anywhere . Kissinger did.

But we are supposed to ignore all of the clued up minds and take heed of some random person on a anonymous board who laughs at that he makes no attempt to refute? lol Give me a break!

Ukraine is awash with Nazi/Fascist/white supremacist groups and is a hub for the same kind of thugs from other states. That's just a well known, well documented fact by the western media and analysist but all you can do is laugh because your posts without them are just hollow vessels that are devoid of supporting information and/or refutations and bog standard trolling.

 

[Fledermaus]

Yes NATO collaboration that I cited many examples of and so you just laugh because you cannot refute it lol

If the US had not wrecklessly(sic) invited both Ukraine and Georgia to become NATO members none of this would have happened. George Kennan warned about the NATO expansion eastward. William Burns made in 2008 as accurate a prediction of this as I have yet to see anywhere . Kissinger did.

But we are supposed to ignore all of the clued up minds and take heed of some random person on a anonymous board who laughs at that he makes no attempt to refute? lol Give me a break!

Ukraine is awash with Nazi/Fascist/white supremacist groups and is a hub for the same kind of thugs from other states. That's just a well known, well documented fact by the western media and analysist(sic) but all you can do is laugh because your posts without them are just hollow vessels that are devoid of supporting information and/or refutations and bog standard trolling.

The USA "wrecklessly" invited Ukraine and Georgia to an organization that would help defend them from the country that eventually invaded them.

Bad USA... Bad....

And now Ukraine is "awash with Nazi/Fascist/white supremacist groups".

Boilerplate Russian propaganda.

Blaming the victim time and again.

 

[Fledermaus]

Even amongst the junk, you are compelled to concede why NATO was set up and who it was aimed at. After the collapse of the USSR and enquiries(sic) from Russia about possible NATO membership for themselves it becomes blatantly obvious to all but Western/NATO apologists who the alliance is set up against. It has also morphed further more recently into the aggressive arm of US foreign policy with NATO members and /NATO operations being found in the ME and as we will see soon, Asia itself

I never claimed otherwise, I stated. correctly, that NATO and the Ukrainian military were forging ever more close and strategically important relations. Joint exercises , arms. training, base building etc etc all of which is true, so the charge that Ukraine was fast becoming a defacto NATO state with US boots on the ground there is undeniable

Like an American can try to lecture someone on the illegality of invading a " soveriegn(sic) country and killing civilians". You people are hysterical in the depths of self deception and flagrant hypocrisy you pump out without the slightest hint of irony

Not a " nice try" but a factually correct point. The two, the 2008 Ukraine application for NATO MAP status and the NATO 2008 Bucharest summit statement outlining that both Georgia and Ukraine will be future members, are a hand in glove duo of the history of Ukraine/NATO relations and possible Ukrainian NATO member state reality.

It was obvious that you would start moving the goalposts in a bid to wriggle out of the nonsense contained in your first response. No acknowledgement of the changes since the 2014 US backed coup , the commitment to it and then the writing of it into the Ukrainian Constitution

It is yourself that is mistaken and in denial of the threat and threatening history of NATO towards the Russians. When people refer to NATO as a defensive alliance you KNOW they are hopeless homers having to ignore the reality of NATO attacks and NATO member attacks of others all around the globe. Do they not count becuase many / most of them have darker faces?

NATO was set up to DEFEND against the USSR.

The same USSR that gave us Soviet puppet states in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria....

The same USSR that crushed Hungarian and Czech uprisings.

Western Europe had no desire to live under the Soviet thumb.

 

[Chagos]

OW2 blatantly pursuing his Kremlin narrative in by now evidenced frenzy, serving only to evidence what his posts and thus he are/is made of.

 

[CaughtInThe]

so do we all now agree that Trump's genius isn't a genius?

you know, he's just evil like Trump.