Russia 'has gone all in': Does Putin have a way out of his war in Ukraine?

[MrNiceGuy]

Self determination is a valid reason to go to war. You treat the Ukrainian people like pawns in a deadly game. The "narrative" that Putin is behaving like Hitler is closer to the truth. Should we have appeased Hitler too?

I don't treat them like that. Russia on the one hand, and NATO/the US on the other, treat Ukraine as a pawn in a deadly game.

Oh, and as for Hitler, like Putin, he was responsible for his own aggression and that aggression was wrong, of course, as is Putin's. Putin is a war criminal right now. What seems to get lost in this discussion is that those of us discussing this issue outside the media narrative aren't saying Putin is innocent. Far from it.

What we are saying is that the origins of this war are more complicated than "Putin bad." And, unless we finally learn that the military industrial complex foments these wars and they are endangering the whole world, and unless we start paying more attention to the things that lead up to these wars, we will keep on getting new ones.

It's a reasonable question to ask "why did Hitler do what he did" and there are non-madman related answers, stemming from WW1, Treaty of Versailles, and other stuff that went on from 1918 to 1929 which created the situation where Hitler was doing what he did. It's ok to talk about them. And, it's ok to explore the origins of Putin's actions.

 

[Chase Morgan]

...and if it was shown to you that the US had a hand in creating the situation in the first place?

When people argued about Iraq and Afghanistan, examination of the root causes and why they were attacking us was properly on the table. The left in particular would argue that the US caused it by its presence there, meddling in the middle east, etc. Those same arguments apply here in Ukraine, with the West gradually trying to pull Ukraine into NATO, participating and supporting the Euromaidan coup in 2014, and the like. The narrative is that Putin is a crazy man who is off his rocker and just bent on world domination. But, what he did was exactly in line with what he was saying for decades about Western encroachment into the eastern bloc. Everyone saw this coming, and what it appears to be is a war which certain folks in the West, not just the US, wanted - and the Ukrainian people are paying the price.

LMAO

pootin is a paranoid, delusional asshole living in the past who doesn't think Ukraine has a right to exist as a free country.

The little russian piece of shit is damn lucky he has nukes...

 

[iguanaman]

I don't treat them like that. Russia on the one hand, and NATO/the US on the other, treat Ukraine as a pawn in a deadly game.

Oh, and as for Hitler, like Putin, he was responsible for his own aggression and that aggression was wrong, of course, as is Putin's. Putin is a war criminal right now. What seems to get lost in this discussion is that those of us discussing this issue outside the media narrative aren't saying Putin is innocent. Far from it.

What we are saying is that the origins of this war are more complicated than "Putin bad." And, unless we finally learn that the military industrial complex foments these wars and they are endangering the whole world, and unless we start paying more attention to the things that lead up to these wars, we will keep on getting new ones.

It's a reasonable question to ask "why did Hitler do what he did" and there are non-madman related answers, stemming from WW1, Treaty of Versailles, and other stuff that went on from 1918 to 1929 which created the situation where Hitler was doing what he did. It's ok to talk about them. And, it's ok to explore the origins of Putin's actions.

The resolve of the Ukrainian people should not be mistaken as a result of outside influences. They have a long history of nationalism and have embraced democracy and freedom is a way that has surprised even the most jaded skeptics, As valid as your distrust of the "military industrial complex" may be this is not what is happening in Ukraine. You are belittling a movement that is unstoppable and admirable. That of course only reinforces Putin's biggest fears about Ukraine, that the movement will spread to Russia. Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians for that very reason too.

 

[oneworld2]

But what about, what about?! Not condoning it or necessarily believing your pro Russian propaganda, but would this have happened if Putin had not invaded Ukraine?

Would it?

" ,But what about".....what?

You are saying it's okay for people to post war crimes if they are committed by Russians only? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to anyone sane or reasonable?

And your " not condoning it" ? But you are not condemning it ar you and if you were the least bit reasonable and consistent you would be condemning it. Your post sounds like so many of the other hypocritical junk positions Jimmy Dore and co are rightly shooting down in flames in that clip

 

[oneworld2]

I'm well aware of the hypocrisy and double standards of past American administrations, but this is no time to analyze our past and give Putin propaganda support. What is going on in Ukraine is tragic and we can't appease it. I'm not saying we need to get involved militarily to start a potential nuclear holocaust, but we need to assist Ukraine in every way possible.

No it's not " past hypocrisy and double standards " that is the issue. It's the fact that so many of you cannot even utter the words war crimes in the same sentence as your own leaders that have committed them. Virtually everyone of them I can think of

You want to assist Ukraine, and I am talking the people of Ukraine, all of them and not just the western ones who appear to be the only ones given a voice in the MSM here, in any meaningful humane way.................you cease to

A Arm it

B Delude it that you even care about the people there

C This will force Zelensky and co to do what they needed to do yonks ago, negotiate around Minsk 2

I know it's not a popular view because everyone of you has swalloewed the cool aid but it's the only way to stop this debacle/horror show in anything like the shory term

 

[ChickenTendies]

No it's not " past hypocrisy and double standards " that is the issue. It's the fact that so many of you cannot even utter the words war crimes in the same sentence as your own leaders that have committed them. Virtually everyone of them I can think of

You want to assist Ukraine, and I am talking the people of Ukraine, all of them and not just the western ones who appear to be the only ones given a voice in the MSM here, in any meaningful humane way.................you cease to

A Arm it

B Delude it that you even care about the people there

C This will force Zelensky and co to do what they needed to do yonks ago, negotiate around Minsk 2

I know it's not a popular view because everyone of you has swalloewed the cool aid but it's the only way to stop this debacle/horror show in anything like the shory term

Its very interesting how the majority of State Department shills are liberals.

 

[oneworld2]

The resolve of the Ukrainian people should not be mistaken as a result of outside influences. They have a long history of nationalism and have embraced democracy and freedom is a way that has surprised even the most jaded skeptics, As valid as your distrust of the "military industrial complex" may be this is not what is happening in Ukraine. You are belittling a movement that is unstoppable and admirable. That of course only reinforces Putin's biggest fears about Ukraine, that the movement will spread to Russia. Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians for that very reason too.

Oh please, you sound like some wet eyed kid straight out of cadets school

The "nationalists" of Ukraine have a history you don't want to know about. They rounded up and massacred thousands of Jews in Ukraine, along with ethnic Russians, when they were collaborating with the occupying German army.

They are the ones that turned Maidan into a bloodbath and overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine.

They are the ones that have been shelling their own people for 7 years for rejecting their 2014 coup. No " freedom " or " democracy" for eastern Ukrainians

They are the ones that trashed Zelenskys gaff when he dared make a move to resolve the Donbas situation by floating the idea of elections there. So much for respect for Zelensky's democratic credentials on that one.

It's common place now to see/listen to " liberals" such as yourself being ignorant of the history and inaccurate about the situation itself. I can't recall a time when so many so called leftists were so happy to support far right thugs as they ensure that their own people are killed and their homes destroyed.

Putins" fears" and not just his fears because people before him held the same fears, are about the wrecklessness of eastward NATO expansionism that now threatens to encircle Russia and push it away from Europe. Tons of US foreign policy people and other informed people acknowledge and/or warned at the time it was a aggressive move sure to one day cause a catastrophic war, Biden icluded.

Stop supporting just the right wing thugs and start supporting ALL of the people of Ukraine and/or at least do some research on those you are lauding here.

 

[Nilhus]

pootin is a paranoid, delusional asshole living in the past

No. He understands super-well what's going on. The murderous NATO organization has only attacked other countries without being in self defense and without being empowered by anyone to do any kind of "justice". Not to speak of the largest NATO member that's been involved in a super long list of illegal wars/military ops
Leaving Ukraine free to bring NATO on its territory(officially or not) poses a risk to the very existence of Russia!

 

[oneworld2]

Its very interesting how the majority of State Department shills are liberals.

It's even more interesting that they don't even know that the biggest internal problem with Ukraine of late has been the right wing thugs they are now supporting

 

[oneworld2]

I don't treat them like that. Russia on the one hand, and NATO/the US on the other, treat Ukraine as a pawn in a deadly game.

Oh, and as for Hitler, like Putin, he was responsible for his own aggression and that aggression was wrong, of course, as is Putin's. Putin is a war criminal right now. What seems to get lost in this discussion is that those of us discussing this issue outside the media narrative aren't saying Putin is innocent. Far from it.

What we are saying is that the origins of this war are more complicated than "Putin bad." And, unless we finally learn that the military industrial complex foments these wars and they are endangering the whole world, and unless we start paying more attention to the things that lead up to these wars, we will keep on getting new ones.

It's a reasonable question to ask "why did Hitler do what he did" and there are non-madman related answers, stemming from WW1, Treaty of Versailles, and other stuff that went on from 1918 to 1929 which created the situation where Hitler was doing what he did. It's ok to talk about them. And, it's ok to explore the origins of Putin's actions.

They don't want to know, they don't want to question. They have been told their bedtime story and they don't want anything to change that. In the vast majprity of cases you will never reason out that which was propagandized in

 

[MrNiceGuy]

LMAO

pootin is a paranoid, delusional asshole living in the past who doesn't think Ukraine has a right to exist as a free country.

The little russian piece of shit is damn lucky he has nukes...

Putin is a capable, highly dangerous, despotic leader, and he is not mentally ill or crazy. To think the latter is just what the people who say "we're fighting for freedom and democracy" want you to believe. As if the people who sponsored the Euromaidan coup in Ukraine in 2014 were interested in "democracy." LOL

 

[oneworld2]

Putin is a capable, highly dangerous, despotic leader, and he is not mentally ill or crazy. To think the latter is just what the people who say "we're fighting for freedom and democracy" want you to believe. As if the people who sponsored the Euromaidan coup in Ukraine in 2014 were interested in "democracy." LOL

That's the line people have been spoon fed. Most haven't the curiosity nor the independence of mind to question that fairy tale. And the others will flat out refuse to lols

 

[Fledermaus]

No. He understands super-well what's going on. The murderous NATO organization has only attacked other countries without being in self defense and without being empowered by anyone to do any kind of "justice". Not to speak of the largest NATO member that's been involved in a super long list of illegal wars/military ops
Leaving Ukraine free to bring NATO on its territory(officially or not) poses a risk to the very existence of Russia!

Explain the risk.

 

[rickc]

Might be time to go back to our post WWII cold War stance with Russia

The Cold War: Containment​

By the time World War II ended, most American officials agreed that the best defense against the Soviet threat was a strategy called “containment.” In his famous “Long Telegram,” the diplomat George Kennan (1904-2005) explained the policy: The Soviet Union, he wrote, was “a political force committed fanatically to the belief that with the U.S. there can be no permanent modus vivendi [agreement between parties that disagree].” As a result, America’s only choice was the “long-term, patient but firm and vigilant containment of Russian expansive tendencies.” “It must be the policy of the United States,” he declared before Congress in 1947, “to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation…by outside pressures.” This way of thinking would shape American foreign policy for the next four decades.

 

[oneworld2]

Explain the risk.

He already did. IE NATO nations attack countries that pose them no risk so it's not a defensive organisation. Additionally, as Putin has said, they are apt to build missile bases and inspire others to take an anti Russian stance whilst being groomed for NATO membership themselves Georgia springs to mind

 

[Fledermaus]

He already did. IE NATO nations attack countries that pose them no risk so it's not a defensive organisation. Additionally, as Putin has said, they are apt to build missile bases and inspire others to take an anti Russian stance whilst being groomed for NATO membership themselves Georgia springs to mind

When was the last time NATO attacked Russia?

We do know Russia has attacked Georgia and Ukraine. In Ukraine's case twice.

 

[oneworld2]

Might be time to go back to our post WWII cold War stance with Russia

You never stopped and that's ther biggest problem about your suggestion

Seeing as you cited him ,here's what George Kennan had to say about NATO expansion eastward

“Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the Cold War, should East-West relations become centered on the question of who would be allied with whom and, by implication, against whom in some fanciful, totally unforeseeable and most improbable future military conflict?”

B]luntly stated…expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking … ”

Noted: George Kennan on NATO Expansion – Project on Defense Alternatives

Excerpt from George F. Kennan, “A Fateful Error,” New York Times, 05 Feb 1997 “Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the Cold War, should East-West relations become centered on the question

comw.org

 

[oneworld2]

When was the last time NATO attacked Russia?

We do know Russia has attacked Georgia and Ukraine. In Ukraine's case twice.

You don't have to have attacked someone for them to pose you a danger. Is this your level of debating skills? lols

 

[Fledermaus]

You don't have to have attacked someone for them to pose you a danger. Is this your level of debating skills? lols

People who don't attack aren't the danger.

 

[oneworld2]

People who don't attack aren't the danger.

Given the NATO nations illegal attacks of late I think it's safe to say your theory has about as much validity as the moon being made of cheese

 

[Fledermaus]

Given the NATO nations illegal attacks of late I think it's safe to say your theory has about as much validity as the moon being made of cheese

Please share what these "illegal" attacks were?

 

[oneworld2]

Please share what these "illegal" attacks were?

Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia

 

[Fledermaus]

Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia

Iraq was the UN in the first Gulf War and the US in the second Gulf War.

Syria. Ah, you are triggered that Syria was able to gas their own people?

Afghanistan. Spanking the Taliban bad, eh?

And Serbia? Really? So you like ethnic cleansing... Got it.

Russia invaded Ukraine. Twice.

Including an illegal annexation of Crimea.

They invaded Georgia.

They also invaded Afghanistan.

 

[iguanaman]

Oh please, you sound like some wet eyed kid straight out of cadets school

The "nationalists" of Ukraine have a history you don't want to know about. They rounded up and massacred thousands of Jews in Ukraine, along with ethnic Russians, when they were collaborating with the occupying German army.

They are the ones that turned Maidan into a bloodbath and overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine.

They are the ones that have been shelling their own people for 7 years for rejecting their 2014 coup. No " freedom " or " democracy" for eastern Ukrainians

They are the ones that trashed Zelenskys gaff when he dared make a move to resolve the Donbas situation by floating the idea of elections there. So much for respect for Zelensky's democratic credentials on that one.

It's common place now to see/listen to " liberals" such as yourself being ignorant of the history and inaccurate about the situation itself. I can't recall a time when so many so called leftists were so happy to support far right thugs as they ensure that their own people are killed and their homes destroyed.

Putins" fears" and not just his fears because people before him held the same fears, are about the wrecklessness of eastward NATO expansionism that now threatens to encircle Russia and push it away from Europe. Tons of US foreign policy people and other informed people acknowledge and/or warned at the time it was a aggressive move sure to one day cause a catastrophic war, Biden icluded.

Stop supporting just the right wing thugs and start supporting ALL of the people of Ukraine and/or at least do some research on those you are lauding here.

LOL There were French nationals that turned jews in to the Nazi occupiers too.. But you are right there were many Ukrainians that joined the Germans against Russia. Their hatred of Stalin and Russia for his mass murder of Ukrainians made the Russians common enemies. Stalin starved millions of innocent Ukrainians because of their nationalism. Putin is repeating the massacre for the same reason only this time we are giving the people the means to do some killing of the Russian invaders too. He fears his own people will join the Ukrainians in their love of democracy and freedom far more than NATO. The people did not elect Putin's puppet either, the election was a fraud. Your ignorance is showing as is your Putin fanboy status. Why don't you do us all a favor and move to Russia?

 

[Hamish Howl]

Wow. So what's your genius solutions for all the civilians stuck in the cities that are getting shelled?

Bide their time until they can drop bricks off of high-rises onto Russians.