Roseanne Bar says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

[Monk-Eye]

Rosing The Barr

"Rosing The Barr"

That ballot measure was against that state of being, anyone that is that state of being is now demoted to second class citizen status.

A bill which stipulates that the state may not negotiate positive rights is improper.
A bill which stipluates that the state makes a distinction between certain civil contracts for purposes of negotiating positive rights is reasonable.

We are discussing marriage, there is no difference between homosexual or heterosexual marriage before the state.

There is no difference before the state for the right to form civil contracts.
There is a negative right to form civil contracts.

There is a difference before the state in when negotiating positive rights for one form of civil contract or another.
There is no obligation to establish positive obligations -- positive rights.

You have no business in denying two adults from consent and recognition before the state.

Any civil contract may be litigated within a court of law, decided, and enforced.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

The biblical paul also contests the sexual positions of women. Are we going to have state orders that women must be in the missionary position at all times for sex? It's absurd.

I did not vote to make homosexuality illegal, and I would not vote to make unorthodox sexual positions illegal.

Homosexual behavior hurts no one, and in the persecution of behaviors the intent is to persecute homosexuals - as in the case of all sodomy laws.

it is my guess that people supported sodomy laws not to persecute homosexuals, but to discourage a behavior they considered to be immoral, abhorrent and harmful.

It's easy to set up these laws and claim the bible says so thus it ought to be (even while hypocritically ignoring other parts of the bible that say many other things) but the bottom line remains the same.
legislation against homosexuals comes from bigotry/intolerance.

I did not cite the bible in order to legitimize my vote. you insisted that christianity should uphold and encourage homosexual behavior, which is why the bible was even brought into this discussion in the first place.

Second-class citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

let me tell you something about second-class citizens that your wikipedia article may have neglected to include.

second-class citizens are not created when a group of people demands special treatment and does not receive it. they are created when a group of people is denied the same treatment as everyone else.

wikipedia does say, however, that a second-class citizen is someone who has "limited legal rights, civil rights and economic opportunities, and are often subject to mistreatment or neglect at the hands of their putative superiors."

to say that this describes homosexuals in america is dishonest and immature.

Despite the fact that it should never have been on the ballot in the first place - is your business for inequality and condemnation of minorities? Is that the christian way?

if it is on my ballot, it is my perfect right to vote any way I choose.

Sexual immortality, abandonment those are reasons of why people get divorced today?

I wouldn't know.

or care.

It's not only "discouraged" it's strongly condemned. Adulters are to be stoned to death.

he who is without sin is to cast the first stone. are we still stuck on the bible? I thought you hated the bible.

I'll find christian and religious folk credible and legitimate when they actually live according to their holy books rather than cherry picking hypocrisy.

that sounds fair to me.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

I did not vote to make homosexuality illegal, and I would not vote to make unorthodox sexual positions illegal.

No, you simply voted to have the state make homosexual behavior illegal

it is my guess that people supported sodomy laws not to persecute homosexuals, but to discourage a behavior they considered to be immoral, abhorrent and harmful.

Who are these people to insist their morals onto me? The state is in no position to be legislating morality - this is a nation of freedom of religion, hence, the state has no right in interfering in issues of morality. Keep your holy book out of my constitution.

I did not cite the bible in order to legitimize my vote. you insisted that christianity should uphold and encourage homosexual behavior, which is why the bible was even brought into this discussion in the first place.

Christians, religious folk, love marriage. This an issue of marriage, yet religious don't want it? The bible brings up absolutely nothing whatsoever about gay marriage.

let me tell you something about second-class citizens that your wikipedia article may have neglected to include.

second-class citizens are not created when a group of people demands special treatment and does not receive it. they are created when a group of people is denied the same treatment as everyone else.

No one is demanding special treatment, they are demanding the same equal rights that prop 8 took away from them.

wikipedia does say, however, that a second-class citizen is someone who has "limited legal rights, civil rights and economic opportunities, and are often subject to mistreatment or neglect at the hands of their putative superiors."

Perfectly applicable to the gay community.

to say that this describes homosexuals in america is dishonest and immature.

Then you're clearly oblivious, anti-gay marriage, anti-sodomy what do you think those laws are?
Their the gay jim crow laws - literally

if it is on my ballot, it is my perfect right to vote any way I choose.

So condemnation of minorities or in this case - gay bashing.

I wouldn't know.

or care.

Gay marriage OH NO!!!! The world is coming to an end because bible says we ought abhore gay activities!!! It can't be so! I will vote to cast gays as second class citizens.
Divorce, even though the bible says so but eh, who cares?
Like I said, hypocritic cherry picking.

he who is without sin is to cast the first stone. are we still stuck on the bible? I thought you hated the bible.

I don't hate the bible by the least extent. I don't hate people who abide by the bible either. I do utterly dispise of indignant intolerant hypocrites.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

No, you simply voted to have the state make homosexual behavior illegal

I voted to make ONE homosexual behavior illegal. homosexual behavior in general is legal nationwide.

Christians, religious folk, love marriage. This an issue of marriage, yet religious don't want it? The bible brings up absolutely nothing whatsoever about gay marriage.

exactly.

No one is demanding special treatment, they are demanding the same equal rights that prop 8 took away from them.

they are demanding special treatment.

Perfectly applicable to the gay community.

no.

Then you're clearly oblivious, anti-gay marriage, anti-sodomy what do you think those laws are?
Their the gay jim crow laws - literally

misapplication of the word "literally" by melodramatic people always amuses me. my younger sister for example likes to say things like "I am literally starving" or "if that driver cuts me off I'm literally going to kill her."

So condemnation of minorities or in this case - gay bashing.

your misuse of language is a turn-off.

Gay marriage OH NO!!!! The world is coming to an end because bible says we ought abhore gay activities!!! It can't be so! I will vote to cast gays as second class citizens.
Divorce, even though the bible says so but eh, who cares?
Like I said, hypocritic cherry picking.

again, I have not attempted to justify my vote by citing the bible. rather, you have attempted to prove me wrong by citing the bible, and so far you are unsuccessful.

I don't hate the bible by the least extent. I don't hate people who abide by the bible either. I do utterly dispise of indignant intolerant hypocrites.

did you expect me to disagree with any of these statements?

I personally think murder is bad, compassion is good, I don't hate muslims and I love candy.

 

[Wessexman]

Re: Roseanne Ba says blracks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

I think we can just keep it at that as far as Burke.
I would hold that Burke would've agreed with progression of marriage, but ostentatiously opposed to divorce.

You are correct, I doubt he would have supported gay marriage or the secularisation of marriage, or the state, though. He was committed to the Established Church of England.

Marriage remains the union of two consenting individuals - that is the core - gay marriage would not change that.

It has always been the union of a man and a woman in the west, one cannot get around this by semantics.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Violation Of Informed Consent In Contract Formation

"Violation Of Informed Consent In Contract Formation"

It has always been the union of a man and a woman in the west, one cannot get around this by semantics.

That is a huge issue.

The positive obligations of the public-state civil contract were drafted with an explicit awareness that the positive rights, obtained through registration, were specifically granted for heterosexual civil unions.

If homosexuals wish to establish positive rights within a public-state civil contract, then those positive obligations should be drafted with the explicit awareness that they are being granted for homosexual civil unions.

Thus earlier, a distinction was made between an amendment that forbid the formation of public-state civil contracts and an amendment which simply made a distinction between the forms of civil union proper.

Repeatedly, all civil unions are a form of marriage; and, there are distinctions between forms of civil unions.
Clearly, the state should have no authority to prohibit (negative rights) the formation of a civil union of polygamy, except legal enforcement that the contract not be made under false pretenses (fraud of participants); however, the state is not obligated to establish (obtained through registration) positive obligations (positive rights) within a public-state civil contract for polygamy, eventhough the civil union is categorically a marriage.

 

[Kali]

Roseanne should get back with Tom Arnold and shut the hell up

 

[jfuh]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

I voted to make ONE homosexual behavior illegal. homosexual behavior in general is legal nationwide.

You voted to make a minority group second class citizens.

exactly.

Yet you voted against marriage.

they are demanding special treatment.

What special right would they enjoy that you would not be able to share in? Right now they are not allowed the privledge that you have.

no.

Yes

misapplication of the word "literally" by melodramatic people always amuses me. my younger sister for example likes to say things like "I am literally starving" or "if that driver cuts me off I'm literally going to kill her."

Address the point.

your misuse of language is a turn-off.

It's abhoring of your indignant sense of superiority.

again, I have not attempted to justify my vote by citing the bible. rather, you have attempted to prove me wrong by citing the bible, and so far you are unsuccessful.

That's funny, because you're bible speaks nothing against gay marriage.

did you expect me to disagree with any of these statements?

I personally think murder is bad, compassion is good, I don't hate muslims and I love candy.

Yet, you are talking for me?

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

You voted to make a minority group second class citizens.

no. I voted to make one homosexual behavior illegal. in the same election, my city passed legislation that will prohibit alcohol use on the beach. are people who want to drink on the beach suddenly second-class citizens?

Yet you voted against marriage.

I voted against gay marriage, which is not the same thing.

What special right would they enjoy that you would not be able to share in? Right now they are not allowed the privledge that you have.

of course they are.

Yes

no.

Address the point.

okay...gay jim crow laws, literally, do not exist. to say that they do is melodramatic, dishonest and immature. I have said this before. it is the last time I will say it.

It's abhoring of your indignant sense of superiority.

abhorrent, you mean.

That's funny, because you're bible speaks nothing against gay marriage.

my bible? YOUR bible. you love the bible.

Yet, you are talking for me?

I don't know what you mean by this.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

no. I voted to make one homosexual behavior illegal. in the same election, my city passed legislation that will prohibit alcohol use on the beach. are people who want to drink on the beach suddenly second-class citizens?

No matter how you spin it to perhaps feel better about your choice, you voted to make homosexuals second class citizens.
As for your example of beach drinking no. Homosexuality does not bring any harm to anyone else. Homosexual marriage does not involve anyone except those who are involved. Drinking on the beach can be disruptive and intrusive onto others.
Can you tell me how gay marriage in anyway whatsoever intrudes on you? Effects you? Would it destroy your marriage?

I voted against gay marriage, which is not the same thing.

It is the same thing.

of course they are.

No, they do not, you can marry anyone of your choice. They can not. CA constitution before prop 8 said that they had that right of choice as well, you repealed it and took away that right.
when prop 8 is repealed you will also have the ability to enter into a gay marriage should you choose.

no.

Then support your claim, why no?

okay...gay jim crow laws, literally, do not exist. to say that they do is melodramatic, dishonest and immature. I have said this before. it is the last time I will say it.

Prop 8 is exactly that. A gay jim crow law.

abhorrent, you mean.

my bible? YOUR bible. you love the bible.

You don't? I'm no theocrat.

I don't know what you mean by this.

You claimed I hate the bible, and now you're saying you won't disagree with what I said, so then why did you make that claim in the first place when you know nothing about it.

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

no. I voted to make one homosexual behavior illegal. in the same election, my city passed legislation that will prohibit alcohol use on the beach. are people who want to drink on the beach suddenly second-class citizens?

Did the alcohol prohibition on the beach only apply to a select group of people?

 

[jfuh]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

Did the alcohol prohibition on the beach only apply to a select group of people?

I think at this the response would be, yes, only those that drink.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

No matter how you spin it to perhaps feel better about your choice, you voted to make homosexuals second class citizens.

homosexuals are not second-class citizens in this country. I almost wish they were, so we wouldn't have to argue this anymore.

Homosexual marriage does not involve anyone except those who are involved.

so you don't see how it could have ANY effect on society as a whole?

It is the same thing.

heterosexual marriage is not the same thing as homosexual marriage. you appear to be grasping at straws.

No, they do not, you can marry anyone of your choice. They can not.

I can't marry a woman.

when prop 8 is repealed you will also have the ability to enter into a gay marriage should you choose.

and until prop 8 is repealed, gays will have the ability to enter into heterosexual marriage should they choose.

Then support your claim, why no?
Prop 8 is exactly that. A gay jim crow law.

they have the same rights that I do.

You don't? I'm no theocrat.

did you think I was a theocrat? how did I manage to give you that impression?

You claimed I hate the bible, and now you're saying you won't disagree with what I said, so then why did you make that claim in the first place when you know nothing about it.

I assumed you would rather move away from discussing the bible because you were the one who said "the bible says so? do you really want to go there?"

however since you like the bible, we should keep talking about it.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

Did the alcohol prohibition on the beach only apply to a select group of people?

it applies to everyone, just like prop 8 does.

no one may drink on the beach.

let "drink on the beach" equal "marry a member of their own gender."

 

[liberateamerica888]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

it applies to everyone, just like prop 8 does.

no one may drink on the beach.

let "drink on the beach" equal "marry a member of their own gender."

Who gave you the right to determine whom someone may marry? The only difference between heterosexual and homosexual marriage is the biological aspect. If homosexuals could have children, would you be so vehemently against gay marriage?

America is a country founded on freedom. If people have freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and many, many other freedoms, why not the freedom to marry the human that they choose?

Furthermore, if gay marriage is a religious issue, then it is an extension of freedom of religion and therefore sholud be protected by the U.S. Constitution, under the First Amendment.

In addition, drinking on the beach and marrying a man/woman are two entirely different things. Your comparison is invalid. There is a danger in letting government and society interfere too much in individuals' lives. Why not live and let live?

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

Who gave you the right to determine whom someone may marry?

whoever put it on my ballot.

The only difference between heterosexual and homosexual marriage is the biological aspect. If homosexuals could have children, would you be so vehemently against gay marriage?

no.

America is a country founded on freedom. If people have freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and many, many other freedoms, why not the freedom to marry the human that they choose?

because unless they choose an adult of the opposite gender, that does not constitute "marriage."

Furthermore, if gay marriage is a religious issue, then it is an extension of freedom of religion and therefore sholud be protected by the U.S. Constitution, under the First Amendment.

do you mean that gay people want to get married for religious reasons? I'm not sure if I understand you.

In addition, drinking on the beach and marrying a man/woman are two entirely different things. Your comparison is invalid. There is a danger in letting government and society interfere too much in individuals' lives. Why not live and let live?

my drinking on the beach analogy was to demonstrate how Prop 8 did not "create second-class citizens," and nothing more.

people who want less government interference in their daily lives should not be actively seeking government's consent to marry.

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

it applies to everyone, just like prop 8 does.

no one may drink on the beach.

let "drink on the beach" equal "marry a member of their own gender."

I suppose you could look at it that way.

However, it did not say "If you are gay, you cannot drink on the beach." I honestly don't think that's an equal comparison. I see what you're getting at etc, but I just don't think it's a fair example.

To be completely honest, the entire topic is starting to tire me. Both sides have ridiculously petty issues... The side for "preserving" the "traditional" definition of marriage honestly (imo) have no real grounds to argue. Marriage is being abused constantly and really holds little to no meaning in our society anymore, aside from legal benefits. The side for "Gay Marriage" seems to be reluctant to come up with an alternate proposal. A few people have stated that a nation-wide civil union would work to bring benefits to all and "preserve" the definition of marriage just the same. I don't see why both sides of the fence wouldnt shake on such a proposal really....

:shrug:

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

people who want less government interference in their daily lives should not be actively seeking government's consent to marry.

I'm sure these "people" have an issue with other "people" interfering with their lives, not government.

Originally Posted by liberateamerica888
The only difference between heterosexual and homosexual marriage is the biological aspect. If homosexuals could have children, would you be so vehemently against gay marriage?

Originally Posted by emdash
no.

Erm, what about hetero couples who are sterile, or choose not to have children? Should they be denied marrital status because of reproduction issues as well?

Children are put up for adoption and adopted every day, I don't see how reproduction is relevant if that's the case.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

I'm sure these "people" have an issue with other "people" interfering with their lives, not government.

I was responding to liberateamerica888, and we were talking about government.

if they don't want "people" interfering in their lives, they shouldn't live in a democratic republic.

Erm, what about hetero couples who are sterile, or choose not to have children? Should they be denied marrital status because of reproduction issues as well?

no. the fact that hetero couples (in theory) have the capacity to reproduce legitimizes state-sponsored benefits for them, in my opinion. gov't cuts families a break because families are good for society.

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

no. the fact that hetero couples have the capacity and often the inclination to reproduce legitimizes state-sponsored benefits for them, in my opinion. gov't cuts families a break because families are good for society.

Sterile Heterosexual couples do not have the capacity to reproduce. Should they be denied marrital status?

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

Sterile Heterosexual couples do not have the capacity to reproduce. Should they be denied marrital status?

I just edited the post to put "in theory" but yours was already there. my point is that gay couples can never reproduce, and straight couples mostly can. to try to find out which ones can before they get married would be difficult or impossible, plus those circumstances are liable to change in either direction over time.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

I just edited the post to put "in theory" but yours was already there. my point is that gay couples can never reproduce, and straight couples mostly can. to try to find out which ones can before they get married would be difficult or impossible, plus those circumstances are liable to change in either direction over time.

plus, discouraging heteros from marrying is not in society's best interest.

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

plus, discouraging heteros from marrying is not in society's best interest.

And preventing gay couples with children from receiving benefits is? Or should we discourage gays from adopting children as well? Heck, that way unclaimed children could go live in foster homes with 12 other kids instead of having a loving family who will take care of them individually.

 

[emdash]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

And preventing gay couples with children from receiving benefits is? Or should we discourage gays from adopting children as well? Heck, that way unclaimed children could go live in foster homes with 12 other kids instead of having a loving family who will take care of them individually.

a single person may adopt too, you don't need a couple for that.

 

[Shewter]

Re: Roseanne Barr says blacks who supported Prop 8 are bigots and ignorant.

a single person may adopt too, you don't need a couple for that.

You didnt answer my question.