Republicans have secret plans to make Wisconsin a right-to-work (for less) state

[nota bene]

Apparently, at least occasionally, union membership is forced.

Faces of Forced Union Political Contributions - House Committee on Oversight & Government Reform

These Stories Behind Forced Unionism and Political Contributions | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

[Zyphlin]

Nobody is forced to join a union in any state.

You realize the logic used to make this statement true is no different than the logic of "Well a woman can choose not to have sex"

 

[ARealConservative]

You realize the logic used to make this statement true is no different than the logic of "Well a woman can choose not to have sex"

and gay men can choose to marry women.

 

[Moot]

You realize the logic used to make this statement true is no different than the logic of "Well a woman can choose not to have sex"

No, because it's the employer who signs a contract with the union. If someone wants to work for that employer then he must join the union under contract. No one is forcing that person to work for that employer and the employer is not forced to hire that person. There is no "force".

 

[Moot]

Apparently, at least occasionally, union membership is forced.

Faces of Forced Union Political Contributions - House Committee on Oversight & Government Reform

These Stories Behind Forced Unionism and Political Contributions | Video | TheBlaze.com

Darrel Issa and his committee is little more than a political witch hunt throwing feces against the wall and hoping something will stick.

 

[Zyphlin]

No, because it's the employer who signs a contract with the union. If someone wants to work for that employer then he must join the union under contract. No one is forcing that person to work for that employer and the employer is not forced to hire that person. There is no "force".

Again, same argument with people saying that a woman is not "forced" to have an abortoin because she can choose to not have sex or take actions that could result in pregnancy. That only upon making a choice does the resulting "force" take place.

I don't think tying up unions and abortion into the same debate, or suggesting the arguments are in line, is the smartest thing to do but if you're going to argue against it you have to use a worth while argument taking into mind the analogy.

Sure women could "Choose" not to engage in sex...and someone could "Choose" not to go into a particular field or work or live in a particular state where union shops are the norm....but neither are highly realistic options in the mindset of those being told either of those points.

 

[OnWisconsin]

so you want the non union worker to be able to bargain seperately, but the unions can't allow these people to get better terms.

The problem though, is once you cut the union out of the equation, workers work harder. And when workers work harder, they deserve more compensation.

That is complete crap. I'm a union ironworker and if you can find me someone who works harder then me, I'll give him my job...


And that whole idea of being able to decide to not be in a union is very simple.. we already have it, its called find a different job..

 

[Zyphlin]

And that whole idea of being able to decide to not be in a union is very simple.. we already have it, its called find a different job..

Umm, that's not actually very simple. You're suggesting someone potentially change their entire career field simply to not be forced into paying money to join an organization they have no desire to take part in. I'm not quite sure how that sounds "simple" to you, let alone "reasonable" to anyone, but that hardly is simple.

You're a couple whose wife has gone to school, gotten her education to be a teacher, and has worked as one for a number of years in a non-union required state. Your husband gets a well paying job in a state that requires union membership and it requires you all to move. To you, somehow, its "simple" to forgo the 4+ years of education and multiple years of experience you've done...along with the costs associated with that...and simply get a "different job". I believe we may have very different definitions of the word "simple"

 

[ARealConservative]

That is complete crap. I'm a union ironworker and if you can find me someone who works harder then me, I'll give him my job...


And that whole idea of being able to decide to not be in a union is very simple.. we already have it, its called find a different job..

then you are the exception, which is very easy claim to make on the internet.

 

[MoSurveyor]

then you are the exception, which is very easy claim to make on the internet.

Your claims are just as hollow since they were also made on the Internet. :roll:


It'a amazing how businessmen demonize unions. Obviously, businessmen just hate it when employees are put on an equal footing - but we already knew that.

 

[randel]

No, because it's the employer who signs a contract with the union. If someone wants to work for that employer then he must join the union under contract. No one is forcing that person to work for that employer and the employer is not forced to hire that person. There is no "force".

bingo...no one is 'forced' to do anything.... don't want to work in a union shop? fine, there are plenty of non union shops for you to choose from, go work for one of them.

 

[OnWisconsin]

then you are the exception, which is very easy claim to make on the internet.

I am NOT the exception. I would like to see you get out and tie rebar for 12 hours a day, bent over, carrying 200lbs of iron on your shoulders. Everyone I work with pulls their weight, and until you have actually done that job, you have no idea. It is very easy for you to say I am the exception, when I am guessing you have never actually been on a union job site.

 

[OnWisconsin]

Listen.. I decided to become an Ironworker on my own, there was no mandate for me to do so, and no one sitting over my shoulder pushing me in that direction. If I didn't like the idea of being in a union I would have simply joined the various other private construction jobs that are out there. The reason I didn't, and I am suspecting many others, is that being in the Union gives me around $10,000 a year more in wages, great medical benefits and a hope of having some form of pension to live off of when I no longer can do my job. Which for many ironworkers is very soon. The job is very demanding and puts a lot of stress on your body and mind. Private construction companies offered me less money, mediocre health care benefits and only a 401k, which they only matched at around 1%.

The choice is there people. I scoff at people who think that you are somehow forced into a union as though someone told you to join or be unemployed... If you don't like the idea of making more money, having better benefits, and a chance at retiring comfortably... join the private sector.. the choice is yours.

 

[ARealConservative]

I am NOT the exception.

so which is it. the post I responded to said nobody works harder then you. now you say you aren't the exception.

I would like to see you get out and tie rebar for 12 hours a day, bent over, carrying 200lbs of iron on your shoulders. Everyone I work with pulls their weight

this will likely be my last response to you based on what you have offered the forum thus far.

you aren't special. I had union jobs myself, I have friends that do the same work you do today.

I also know that we were allowed to slow up production because their contracts made it easier to meet the lower levels introduced. We bragged about such things. I didn't work as hard as I could specifically because of the union contract. Fortunately, like you, I worked in the private union environment. If we demanded too low production values, it could cost us our jobs as our employers went out of business. the public unions don't have this critical check and balance in place, and we have all suffered because of it

and until you have actually done that job, you have no idea. So until you have a scrap of knowledge about what it actually takes to be an ironworker, or pipefitter, or laborer, or steamfitter, or various other union jobs, I would suggest you leave your criticism to yourself about what exactly is the exception..

blablabla. pathetic debate style. " i'm so much more of a bad ass then you people. bow down to my physical capabilities".

 

[ARealConservative]

join the private sector.. the choice is yours.

this right here proves you really have no clue what you are even talking about, which sucks, because I am sure you are voting regardless of your ignorance.

the issues in right to work states deal with private sector unions too.

 

[OnWisconsin]

this right here proves you really have no clue what you are even talking about, which sucks, because I am sure you are voting regardless of your ignorance.

the issues in right to work states deal with private sector unions too.

I don't live in a Right to work for less state.. at least not yet.

 

[OnWisconsin]

so which is it. the post I responded to said nobody works harder then you. now you say you aren't the exception.



this will likely be my last response to you based on what you have offered the forum thus far.

you aren't special. I had union jobs myself, I have friends that do the same work you do today.

I also know that we were allowed to slow up production because their contracts made it easier to meet the lower levels introduced. We bragged about such things. I didn't work as hard as I could specifically because of the union contract. Fortunately, like you, I worked in the private union environment. If we demanded too low production values, it could cost us our jobs as our employers went out of business. the public unions don't have this critical check and balance in place, and we have all suffered because of it



blablabla. pathetic debate style. " i'm so much more of a bad ass then you people. bow down to my physical capabilities".

well, I edited that post because I looked it over and thought it was a little too forward.. However my intent was not to try and brag about what I do, simply to state that what I do is no joke. I work hard, and it absolutely drives me nuts when people claim that Union workers have no work ethic, or somehow work less than the private sector.

 

[OnWisconsin]

this right here proves you really have no clue what you are even talking about, which sucks, because I am sure you are voting regardless of your ignorance.

the issues in right to work states deal with private sector unions too.

How do I have no clue... You can either work for a Private Union, or go out and find a non-union construction job? It may differ from state to state, but here in Wisconsin, no one is forcing you to join a Union. That is a bunch of BS.

 

[ARealConservative]

How do I have no clue... You can either work for a Private Union, or go out and find a non-union construction job? It may differ from state to state, but here in Wisconsin, no one is forcing you to join a Union. That is a bunch of BS.

private and public deal with who employs you. public workers are employed by taxpayers.

If a person wants to be a pipe fitter, and not join a union, he should have that right and if people tell him to go do some other line of work, he should rightly tell them to go to hell.

 

[OnWisconsin]

private and public deal with who employs you. public workers are employed by taxpayers.

If a person wants to be a pipe fitter, and not join a union, he should have that right and if people tell him to go do some other line of work, he should rightly tell them to go to hell.

There is plenty of private sector jobs he/she can go into that involve the same thing. I think you are missing or ignoring that fact.

 

[Moot]

private and public deal with who employs you. public workers are employed by taxpayers.

The taxpayers are not the government anymore than shareholders are a company and private citizens work for the government just like they would a job in the private sector. It's a JOB and taxpayers don't get to micromanage government jobs.

If a person wants to be a pipe fitter, and not join a union, he should have that right and if people tell him to go do some other line of work, he should rightly tell them to go to hell.

No one is telling a person to find a new line of work, but only to go work for a non-union company if they don't want to join a union.

 

[MoSurveyor]

I am NOT the exception. I would like to see you get out and tie rebar for 12 hours a day, bent over, carrying 200lbs of iron on your shoulders. Everyone I work with pulls their weight, and until you have actually done that job, you have no idea. It is very easy for you to say I am the exception, when I am guessing you have never actually been on a union job site.

I survey so I've seen the bridge crews doing that - NOT something I'd want to do at all! As far as I'm concerned you guys earn every penny. eace

 

[MoSurveyor]

[...] the public unions don't have this critical check and balance in place, and we have all suffered because of it [...]

And the public union employees can't strike, either, at least not in most places - so the situation isn't 100% the same on the other side, either.

The police and firefighters have some of the oldest unions in the country - and a huge chunk of police officers and firefighters belong to unions. Are you saying they police and firefighters are overpaid? I'm sure most would people would disagree with you. In fact, some Republicans that attack public unions have specifically exempted police and firefighters. Why is that?!?

 

[OnWisconsin]

And the public union employees can't strike, either, at least not in most places - so the situation isn't 100% the same on the other side, either.

The police and firefighters have some of the oldest unions in the country - and a huge chunk of police officers and firefighters belong to unions. Are you saying they police and firefighters are overpaid? I'm sure most would people would disagree with you. In fact, the some Republicans that attack public unions have specifically exempted police and firefighters. Why is that?!?

I agree, Police and Firefighters are paid every penny they are worth. If not, underpaid. Here in Wisconsin (which is what the whole discussion is about, right?) The Police and Firefighters were exempt from the release of collective bargaining rights. Most of which voted for Walker in 2010. After the bomb dropped that Walker would be stripping bargaining rights you saw numerous, and I mean many, Police and Firefighter unions come out and apologize to the people for voting for Walker. Here in Wisconsin, the birthplace of public unions, and in many rights, the birthplace of the progressive movement (also the birthplace of the republican party) union members are getting the shaft for the economic collapse, which happened on a national level. Teachers, and firefighters, and police, and private sector union members did not cause this collapse. Out of control banks, and their schemes, and wallstreet caused this collapse. So to ask the middle class (many of us union members) to foot the bill is ludicrous.

 

[Thrilla]

as long as we have this public sector untouchable union gravy train/democratic party funding mechanism.. we oughta change the law and allow the military to unionize.