Republicans are not the problem, conservatism is the problem

[Hard Truth]

Definition of CONSERVATIVE
1: preservative
2a : of or relating to a philosophy of conservatism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party professing the principles of conservatism: as (1) : of or constituting a party of the United Kingdom advocating support of established institutions (2) : progressive conservative
3a : tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional b : marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate> c : marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners
4: of, relating to, or practicing Conservative Judaism
Conservative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary bold added by Hard Truth

Apparently, conservatives do not see themselves as others see them, as shown in this thread. I don't think many liberals would argue with their dictionary definition. (excerpt for the now obsolete #3 where they would argue that they have a different morality, not a lack or morality.)

Someone who knew nothing about the diffeence between conservatives and liberals except for what is in the dictionary would most likely identify liberals as the good guys.

Definition of LIBERAL
1a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2a : marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : ample, full
3obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4: not literal or strict : loose <a liberal translation>
5: broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
Liberal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Trip]

Definition of CONSERVATIVE
1: preservative
2a : of or relating to a philosophy of conservatism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party professing the principles of conservatism: as (1) : of or constituting a party of the United Kingdom advocating support of established institutions (2) : progressive conservative
3a : tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional b : marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate> c : marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners
4: of, relating to, or practicing Conservative Judaism
Conservative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary bold added by Hard Truth

Apparently, conservatives do not see themselves as others see them, as shown in this thread. I don't think many liberals would argue with their dictionary definition. (excerpt for the now obsolete #3 where they would argue that they have a different morality, not a lack or morality.)

Someone who knew nothing about the diffeence between conservatives and liberals except for what is in the dictionary would most likely identify liberals as the good guys.

Definition of LIBERAL
1a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2a : marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : ample, full
3obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4: not literal or strict : loose <a liberal translation>
5: broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
Liberal - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Strange, those people and their legislation currently controllign the Senate, and the White House, and who held the House to pass ObamaCare, they don't sound "liberal" at all, THe are authoritarians, and dicatorial at that, and they even promote a government fascism.

 

[Hard Truth]

Strange, those people and their legislation currently controllign the Senate, and the White House, and who held the House to pass ObamaCare, they don't sound "liberal" at all, THe are authoritarians, and dicatorial at that, and they even promote a government fascism.

There are only a handful of conservatives in national office at this time, mostly we have Democratic party centrists, and even they are forced into compromises with conservatives to get anything done. Many candidates, including Obama, show much more support for liberal ideas while campaigning than they do after they get elected.

Liberals wanted Medicare for all (not Obamacare), opposed the war on Iraq, would have gotten out of Afghanistan long ago (and many didn't suport going in), opposed the post-9/11 justifications for torture, renditions, removal of privacy rights, and assasination by drones, would have legalized gay marriage a long time ago, opposed the over-emphasis on tests in public K-12 education, would stop criminalizing the drug problem, would hold financial institutions and individuals accountable for fraud, and hold many other views that are not well represented in Washington. These are the views represented by Barbara Lee, Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and very few others, despite much more public support for these ideas than is reflected by our elected officials. Despite the myths, liberals rarely get their way with legislation, instead we get conservative/centrist compomised legislation that is sometimes includes the worst ideas of the two. Often liberals support compromised legislation because it appears to be better than doing nothing or any of the other alternatives being proposed.

 

[Dammitboy!]

This struck me one day and I'd like to share the idea.

Definition of conservative
adjective
1. averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values:
they were very conservative in their outlook

Source: Oxford dictionary

To cling to old ideas and refusing to explore and grow is just such a terrible thing. I truly fell bad for people who sees everything as black and white and aren't open to provocative ideas. To build a party around conservatism is to doom it to fail.

The problem is with your definition...

 

[Hard Truth]

The problem is with your definition...

The definion is from the dictionary. Dictionary definitions are created by surveying a wide range of writings and then creating or updating the definition according to how the word is routinely used. Your problem is that reality as reflected by people who write (AKA literates) has a liberal bias.

 

[foundit66]

This struck me one day and I'd like to share the idea.

Definition of conservative
adjective
1. averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values:
they were very conservative in their outlook

Source: Oxford dictionary

To cling to old ideas and refusing to explore and grow is just such a terrible thing. I truly fell bad for people who sees everything as black and white and aren't open to provocative ideas. To build a party around conservatism is to doom it to fail.

I think it just depends upon how rigidly you stick to such things.

For example, if a conservative wants to stick to the way things have been done for the sake of history, I think that's bad just like a liberal wanting to change for the sake of changing something would be bad.
There are arguments for both sides, with varying degree of cogent validity.

What I think is problematic is when there are some conservative issues where they want to do it their way, but then fail to recognize how it is destructive to end goals.
For example, Bush pushed for abstinence only education.
But research has shown that abstinence only is worse for preventing teen pregnancy. Abstinence only is seen to have more risky behavior than the full sex education group.
The method is prized above the goal.

 

[Dammitboy!]

The definion is from the dictionary. Dictionary definitions are created by surveying a wide range of writings and then creating or updating the definition according to how the word is routinely used. Your problem is that reality as reflected by people who write (literates) has a liberal bias.

If you are conservative with your money are you adverse to change or innovation? The point being - it's a silly use of the definition and incorrect.

 

[Hard Truth]

If you are conservative with your money are you adverse to change or innovation? The point being - it's a silly use of the definition and incorrect.

That would be using the word conservative as defined in Webster's definition #3b: "marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate.>"

Politically, most conservatives fit the definion in #3a:" tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional."

If more conservatives actually were just "moderate and cautious," rather than "disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions," the world would be a much better place.

 

[Dammitboy!]

That would be using the word conservative as defined in Webster's definition #3b: "marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate.>"

Politically, most conservatives fit the definion in #3a:" tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional."

If more conservatives actually were just "moderate and cautious," rather than "disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions," the world would be a much better place.

Careful, your bias is showing...

 

[Trip]

There are only a handful of conservatives in national office at this time, mostly we have Democratic party centrists, and even they are forced into compromises with conservatives to get anything done. Many candidates, including Obama, show much more support for liberal ideas while campaigning than they do after they get elected.

Liberals wanted Medicare for all (not Obamacare), opposed the war on Iraq, would have gotten out of Afghanistan long ago (and many didn't suport going in), opposed the post-9/11 justifications for torture, renditions, removal of privacy rights, and assasination by drones, would have legalized gay marriage a long time ago, opposed the over-emphasis on tests in public K-12 education, would stop criminalizing the drug problem, would hold financial institutions and individuals accountable for fraud, and hold many other views that are not well represented in Washington. These are the views represented by Barbara Lee, Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and very few others, despite much more public support for these ideas than is reflected by our elected officials. Despite the myths, liberals rarely get their way with legislation, instead we get conservative/centrist compomised legislation that is sometimes includes the worst ideas of the two. Often liberals support compromised legislation because it appears to be better than doing nothing or any of the other alternatives being proposed.

You're full of nonsense and gross generalizations based solely on your own political bias.

If there are only a handful of conservatives, then how is it the "liberals" are having to compromise with them?

The liberals have not compromised over anything over the last four years, and have not played well with others before then.

But more broadly there is nothing represented in the Democratic part that is anything at all "liberal" anymore. They have become entirely radicalized Marxist fascists, believing that they are entitled to dictate to others about their lives, and in the meantime the berate the "Social Cons" who allegedly want to dictate their religious beliefs onto eveyrone else, but strangely this is nowhere in evidence.

Those non-existent "liberals" want a lot of crap indeed, but your "Medicare for all" or "Universal Health Care" or "single payer" are not empowered to the government under the U.S. Constitution, and are every bit as prohibited thereby as is ObamaCare, and moreso.


Those non-existent "liberals" seemed to be just find with 9/11 'jusifications', and rendictions and the removal of privacy rights under the Patriot Act, as they did nothing to stop these when they had both Houses of Congress and the office of President. Those "Liberals" only took a stance against the Iraq war immediately prior tothe mid-term elections under Bush because they had nothing to run on if they supported everything involved in the War on terror.

Liberals have not compromised on a damn thing, and in point of fact the best thing for Americans is when Congress does nothing. Their JOB is not to legislate our freedoms away and dictate every aspect of our lives.

 

[Trip]

There are only a handful of conservatives in national office at this time, mostly we have Democratic party centrists, and even they are forced into compromises with conservatives to get anything done. Many candidates, including Obama, show much more support for liberal ideas while campaigning than they do after they get elected.

Liberals wanted Medicare for all (not Obamacare), opposed the war on Iraq, would have gotten out of Afghanistan long ago (and many didn't suport going in), opposed the post-9/11 justifications for torture, renditions, removal of privacy rights, and assasination by drones, would have legalized gay marriage a long time ago, opposed the over-emphasis on tests in public K-12 education, would stop criminalizing the drug problem, would hold financial institutions and individuals accountable for fraud, and hold many other views that are not well represented in Washington. These are the views represented by Barbara Lee, Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and very few others, despite much more public support for these ideas than is reflected by our elected officials. Despite the myths, liberals rarely get their way with legislation, instead we get conservative/centrist compomised legislation that is sometimes includes the worst ideas of the two. Often liberals support compromised legislation because it appears to be better than doing nothing or any of the other alternatives being proposed.

You're full of nonsense and gross generalizations based solely on your own political bias.

If there are only a handful of conservatives, then how is it the "liberals" are having to compromise with them?

The liberals have not compromised over anything over the last four years, and have not played well with others before then.

But more broadly there is nothing represented in the Democratic part that is anything at all "liberal" anymore. They have become entirely radicalized Marxist fascists, believing that they are entitled to dictate to others about their lives, and in the meantime the berate the "Social Cons" who allegedly want to dictate their religious beliefs onto eveyrone else, but strangely this is nowhere in evidence.

Those non-existent "liberals" want a lot of crap indeed, but your "Medicare for all" or "Universal Health Care" or "single payer" are not empowered to the government under the U.S. Constitution, and are every bit as prohibited thereby as is ObamaCare, and moreso.


Those non-existent "liberals" seemed to be just fine with 9/11 'justifications', and renditions and the removal of privacy rights under the Patriot Act, as they did nothing to stop these when they had both Houses of Congress and the office of President. Those "Liberals" only took a stance against the Iraq war immediately prior to the mid-term elections under Bush because they had nothing to run on if they supported everything involved in the War on terror.

Liberals have not compromised on a damn thing, and in point of fact the best thing for Americans is when Congress does nothing. Their JOB is not to legislate our freedoms away and dictate every aspect of our lives.

 

[Trip]

That would be using the word conservative as defined in Webster's definition #3b: "marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate.>"

Politically, most conservatives fit the definion in #3a:" tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional."

If more conservatives actually were just "moderate and cautious," rather than "disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions," the world would be a much better place.

Conservatives are not these mindless, cautious automatons your narrow partisan hackery make them out to be. That is only the narrowness of your own ideology.

They don't just uphold existing institutions and views for the sake of the status quo, but because those institutions were derived for good reason, and remain the most advanced and enlightened form of government ever known to the freedom of mankind.

Get yourself out of the warped box you reside in, and actually try to do a more thorough examination than the convenient labels you're applying, and you might actually learn something, and I specifically am referencing learning n something about your own narrowness and outmoded rabidly ideological beliefs.

 

[Hard Truth]

I made a significant typo in post #253. I meant to say:
There are only a handful of liberals in national office at this time, mostly we have Democratic party centrists, and even they are forced into compromises with conservatives to get anything done. Many candidates, including Obama, show much more support for liberal ideas while campaigning than they do after they get elected.

 

[Trip]

I made a significant typo in post #253. I meant to say:
There are only a handful of liberals in national office at this time, mostly we have Democratic party centrists, and even they are forced into compromises with conservatives to get anything done. Many candidates, including Obama, show much more support for liberal ideas while campaigning than they do after they get elected.

You made a serious typo now.

Those in office are not at all "centrists". They are radical 60s Marxist retreads and wannabe 60s radicals, floating ideas long failed in communist countries, and failing in the EU now. Obama was actually rated the furthest left member in the Senate, and he achieved in his very short tenure. Calling him and his basket of appointed fruit-loops "centrists" is just an obscene and warped evaluation.

Almost everything they've done is prohibited by the Constitution, but that doesn't bother those rabid ideologues any.

 

[Hard Truth]

If you read the liberal press such as Mother Jones and the Nation or listen to liberal radio and TV such as Democracy Now or Pacifica radio you would know that most of and our elected legislature in Washington are centrist, not liberal/progressive. The only radical to get elected to congress was Tom Hayden.

 

[Fenton]

Spoken like a numbnuts. Obama inheirited the second worse mess in the history
of our country. Interest payments on the existing debt of nearly half a trillion dollars a year, employment falling by 750,000 jobs a month, a stock market with a DOW around 8,000, a crushed mortgage and home building industry, two blazing wars where young Americans were losing their lives or being severely wounded every day, a continuing Al Queda Jihad, etc. It took Roosevelt eight years and a world war to straighten out the other Republican mess in the 30's......give the man a break!

Oh here we go, the blame nonsense.

Campbell that only works on the really stupid, you know, the majority of Obama's voters.

The rest of us are entirely capable of objective research and know exactly why this economy still and will continue to suffer.

And it has nothing to do with " Republicans" or George Bush.

Truth is Obama "inherited" the effects of the Democrat Mandated Housing Bubble Collapse.

And his counter to the collapse was to give his union supporters a massive amount of tax payer money, give bankrupt green energy companies and a Foriegn Company Billions of dollars.

And then sign Obama-Care. The absolute worst and most expensive piece of legislation to ever be signed.

Its good to know his legacy will be massive spending and a worsening economy while Wall Street Cleans Up.

I just wish he had told us.

 

[Trip]

If you read the liberal press such as Mother Jones and the Nation or listen to liberal radio and TV such as Democracy Now or Pacifica radio you would know that most of and our elected legislature in Washington are centrist, not liberal/progressive. The only radical to get elected to congress was Tom Hayden.

You've got a little bit of something... right... oh hell, the kool-aid's all lover your face. You've had your whole head in the trough again, haven't you?

There isn't a Liberal seen breathing in Washington and there's nothing 'centrist' about anyone in the Democratic party.

 

[Grant]

You've got a little bit of something... right... oh hell, the kool-aid's all lover your face. You've had your whole head in the trough again, haven't you?

There isn't a Liberal seen breathing in Washington and there's nothing 'centrist' about anyone in the Democratic party.

It's always fascinating to watch Liberals explaining what the Conservative philosophy is to Conservatives. It's like a teetotaler explaining wine to a connoisseur.

 

[sangha]

It's always fascinating to watch Liberals explaining what the Conservative philosophy is to Conservatives. It's like a teetotaler explaining wine to a connoisseur.

Even more facinating are the rightwingers who are so ashamed of their ideology that they try to pass themselves off as conservatives.

 

[Grant]

Even more facinating are the rightwingers who are so ashamed of their ideology that they try to pass themselves off as conservatives.

What do you believe is the difference between right wingers and conservatives?

 

[sangha]

What do you believe is the difference between right wingers and conservatives?

This has already been explained in this thread.

What is conservative about your beliefs?

 

[Cephus]

Even more facinating are the rightwingers who are so ashamed of their ideology that they try to pass themselves off as conservatives.

They initially did so in order to gain more power within the Republican Party. They had to claim to follow the same basic ideology so that the actual conservatives, who didn't pay much attention to what they were really saying, would vote for them.

 

[Grant]

This has already been explained in this thread.

What is conservative about your beliefs?

Has it? Why don't you give your own opinion?

 

[Grant]

They initially did so in order to gain more power within the Republican Party. They had to claim to follow the same basic ideology so that the actual conservatives, who didn't pay much attention to what they were really saying, would vote for them.

So there is a conspiracy thing going on.

What do believe their ultimate goal might be?

 

[Fenton]

What do you believe is the difference between right wingers and conservatives?[/
QUOTE]

This should be interesting....