Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:222]

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I know the Constitution is a living document meant to adjust with the times though . . .

It's called the amendment process. Neither side uses it, because both sides know the majorities do not exist to legally push forward their agendas in such a manner.

2. Preventative medicine keeps people without insurance out of Emergency Rooms.

In theory, but the reality is people don't use preventative even when it is given freely, because that involves setting up an appointment and actually taking care of themselves, it's much easier to just walk into the ER. I have seen this in different cities across the US, where preventative programs were in place for the poor and they were barely utilized. You want to be serious about it, then with this new ACA, also remove the requirement for hospitals to treat those without insurance. Put in place a penalty where the new insurance plans do not cover ER visits if the ER says it was something a primary care doctor could have dealt with.

We have to also stop acting like the government can't do healthcare . . . and can't do it well.

You have one good story of military care. I have heard and experienced far more bad than good. It's not that the people there are bad, it's the red tape and other nonsense that the government makes them work under. It's horrible. If our nation had to deal with what people in the military deal with (that I have seen) and what vets have to deal with at the VA (that I have seen), they would be outraged. There is very little the government does well, almost everything they touch turns to ****.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

The Military provides for the international security of the nation. Security is a societal function. Public health provides for the health of the nation. The health of the nation is a societal function. I realize that you don't agree with the last one but as long as the society you live in does, part of that bill will be yours and the system will include you.

The military helps protect the rights of the people against outside aggression. The health of a nation deals with the country as a whole, not the health of individual citizens that reside in that nation. Providing people healthcare does not protect their rights nor does it deal with health of the nation. It simply deals with providing people with services towards their own personal needs.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I don't like paying for weapons. Life sucks eh?

It doesn't matter if you don't like that. National Defense is actually something that is the federal government's responsibility. Healthcare is not.

Next...

 

[Helix]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

They get help from willing members of society or they die?

no. they riot and create severe societal instability.

the average person will take a lot of ****. he'll accept eroding labor rights. he'll work two ****ty jobs that don't pay the bills. he'll take wage stagnation, globalization, and the entry into a post-labor economy that leaves a lot of missing rungs on the ladder. but if his kid is hungry or sick? that he will not take. at that point, the average person devoid of other opportunities will commit crimes, and i wouldn't want to be the guy with most of the apples when we reach that point. they don't build gates that high.

so yes, you benefit greatly from societal stability, as do i, and as does everyone else. the "fend for yourself" model for an entire nation is a pipe dream.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

The military helps protect the rights of the people against outside aggression. The health of a nation deals with the country as a whole, not the health of individual citizens that reside in that nation. Providing people healthcare does not protect their rights nor does it deal with health of the nation. It simply deals with providing people with services towards their own personal needs.

The health of a nation is a societal issue. A healthy nation tends to have a healthy economy. Simply because we've treated health care so casually for long doesn't mean that was the right way to do it. Regardless of whether you agree, and you don't have to it's not required, part of the bill is yours to pay for being a member of this collective, this society, just as part of the weapons bill is mine to pay, whether I like it or not. I wasn't asked, I just pay up and sometimes make my displeasure known. You are welcome to do the same but the bill is coming to a mailbox near you. As a matter of fact, it's coming to one exactly near you, yours, and there's nothing you can do but piss and moan about it. Welcome to my club.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

The health of a nation is a societal issue.

Where is it mentioned that it is the duty or a power of the federal government? Can you site the section of the Constitution?

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

It doesn't matter if you don't like that. National Defense is actually something that is the federal government's responsibility. Healthcare is not.

Next...

So you believe but your society, your nation is saying something different. You do remember why the Constitution was written do you not? It wasn't written so you could do whatever you wanted to. For that you didn't need a thing and that's pretty much what you'd have in that case, not a thing.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Where is it mentioned that it is the duty or a power of the federal government? Can you site the section of the Constitution?

Sure thing, when you find me NASA. the CIA, the FBI, the FDA, the EPA, the DOE, the Secret Service, and the NSA? Good luck with that.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

So you believe but your society, your nation is saying something different. You do remember why the Constitution was written do you not? It wasn't written so you could do whatever you wanted to. For that you didn't need a thing and that's pretty much what you'd have in that case, not a thing.

What the hell is this gibberish?

Please let us know where in the Constitution the Federal Government is given the power or right to control or be involved in health care...

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

The health of a nation is a societal issue. A healthy nation tends to have a healthy economy. Simply because we've treated health care so casually for long doesn't mean that was the right way to do it. Regardless of whether you agree, and you don't have to it's not required, part of the bill is yours to pay for being a member of this collective, this society, just as part of the weapons bill is mine to pay, whether I like it or not. I wasn't asked, I just pay up and sometimes make my displeasure known. You are welcome to do the same but the bill is coming to a mailbox near you. As a matter of fact, it's coming to one exactly near you, yours, and there's nothing you can do but piss and moan about it. Welcome to my club.

Let's make something abundantly clear so there is no doubt about it and no more foolishness about a collective. I am NOT a gear in a machine that can be used at your will. I am an individual that has a right to his property and you have no right to take it from me to use towards your own ends. You act as if theft of resources is a right you have because you just so happen to need healthcare, but the fact is that is not my problem and if I decide to make it my problem is my decision to make, not yours. You need to learn your place and if you continue to refuse you will pay for that mistake in time. This is not a threat, but a cold hard fact.

Btw, if you desire to continue to not understand what the health of a nation means then be my quest, but it will continue to not have anything to do with individual healthcare needs.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Sure thing, when you find me NASA. the CIA, the FBI, the FDA, the EPA, the DOE, the Secret Service, and the NSA? Good luck with that.

We are not talking about those. There is good reason why most, if not all, of those should not exist. So how about instead of a continual dodge, you let us know where the Federal Government is given the power to be involved in the healthcare of the nation...

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Sure thing, when you find me NASA. the CIA, the FBI, the FDA, the EPA, the DOE, the Secret Service, and the NSA? Good luck with that.

Really? So you desire to list random other things to somehow defeat his argument? How does that work exactly?

 

[Unitedwestand13]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

We are not talking about those. There is good reason why most, if not all, of those should not exist. So how about instead of a continual dodge, you let us know where the Federal Government is given the power to be involved in the healthcare of the nation...

It's not a dodge.

He's asking you to find where in the constitution the federal government is given the power to create the FDA, CIA, NSA, FBI, NASA, EPA , and DOE.

If you cannot find anything that gives the government to create those angencys, yet continue to insist that people try to find where in the constitution gives the government the power to oversee health care. You are insisting a double standing

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Really? So you desire to list random other things to somehow defeat his argument? How does that work exactly?

His argument is 220 years old, and just as dead. It hardly matters what the thing says if we evolve beyond it, and obviously we don't to change it to invent programs that work to fix or better our society. If we did we'd all be living in log cabins and getting water from a stream. His argument is in the past, and so are both your mentalities.

Public utilities, public parks, public buildings, public squares, public schools, and public health. I'm sorry boys but the days of you, an axe, and a virgin forest are long dead, just like the guys who wrote the Constitution. They expected us to evolve as we needed to. Do them and rest of us a favor, do so.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

It's not a dodge.

He's asking you to find where in the constitution the federal government is given the power to create the FDA, CIA, NSA, FBI, NASA, EPA , and DOE.

If you cannot find anything that gives the government to create those angencys, yet continue to insist that people try to find where in the constitution gives the government the power to oversee health care. You are insisting a double standing

Yes, it is a dodge. A very transparent dodge. As I stated, most of those agencies should not exist per the Constitution. But the topic of discussion is not those agencies, it's the Federal Government's involvement in health care. Period.

edit: And as further evidence, see his response above this post.. more dodging. "It hardly matters what the thing says". Utter stupidity. He knows damn well there is ZERO power given to the federal government, so first try to deflect by trying to call others hypocrites, when that fails, just say the Constitution is old. Wow, there's some failed logic. God forbid he even understand the amendment process and that it was put there to bring changes, that we don't just disregard what we do not like and 'do whatever'. No wonder we are so screwed up when people like that vote.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

We are not talking about those. There is good reason why most, if not all, of those should not exist. So how about instead of a continual dodge, you let us know where the Federal Government is given the power to be involved in the healthcare of the nation...

If your argument is Hey, you can't find that in the Constitution, then most of what America has, including a Standing Army, would not be allowed to exist. If that is your game, feel free to play it but know that that's just exactly what it is, a game and in this case, a kid's game. In the real world we have moved beyond such things.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

It's not a dodge.

He's asking you to find where in the constitution the federal government is given the power to create the FDA, CIA, NSA, FBI, NASA, EPA , and DOE.

If you cannot find anything that gives the government to create those angencys, yet continue to insist that people try to find where in the constitution gives the government the power to oversee health care. You are insisting a double standing

TOL is fishing to avoid answering the question.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

His argument is 220 years old, and just as dead. It hardly matters what the thing says if we evolve beyond it, and obviously we don't to change it to invent programs that work to fix or better our society. If we did we'd all be living in log cabins and getting water from a stream. His argument is in the past, and so are both your mentalities.

Evolve beyond the rule of law? Is that a joke? Do you honestly think ignoring the rule of law is evolution?

Public utilities, public parks, public buildings, public squares, public schools, and public health. I'm sorry boys but the days of you, an axe, and a virgin forest are long dead, just like the guys who wrote the Constitution. They expected us to evolve as we needed to. Do them and rest of us a favor, do so.

I don't happen to find more government authority in our lives outside of protecting the rights of the people is evolution. Evolution would involve calling for less from government, not more.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

If your argument is Hey, you can't find that in the Constitution, then most of what America has, including a Standing Army, would not be allowed to exist. If that is your game, feel free to play it but know that that's just exactly what it is, a game and in this case, a kid's game. In the real world we have moved beyond such things.

If it is not a power granted to the federal government via the Constitution, it is relegated to the States. So are you admitting the federal government really does not have the power to do what it is doing with the ACA? Or are you still in denial?

Your 'Standing Army' argument shows ignorance on how the military works.

You have zero credibility when it comes to the Constitution, and so far have shown your ideas are based on feel good emotion and nothing more.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

If it is not a power granted to the federal government via the Constitution, it is relegated to the States. So are you admitting the federal government really does not have the power to do what it is doing with the ACA? Or are you still in denial?

Your 'Standing Army' argument shows ignorance on how the military works.

You have zero credibility when it comes to the Constitution, and so far have shown your ideas are based on feel good emotion and nothing more.

Your "Standing Army" shows a lack of knowledge of the Constitution. It's not Constitutional.

And let me help you out here boys, there is no right to Health Care in the Constitution. There is also no CIA, no EPA, there's no NASA, no Air Force, no IRS, and no yes we no bananas. In case you haven't noticed, our society is not solely governed by what the Founders did or did not put in the document they wrote more then 220 years ago. As you should have imagined, when the airplane came along and begin to fly over many states at a time, we invented a system that tracked them Nationally. It's not in the Constitution but the FAA is here to stay. That's how it works. The needs change and we change with them, well some of us do. You'll just have to hate it but suck it up anyway. None of us are happy about all that we pay for. I guess it's your turn eh kiddos?

My ideas are based upon reality, the needs of society not emotions. Yours are based on ideology. Guess which one of us is winning?

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

My ideas are based upon reality, the needs of society not emotions. Yours are based on ideology. Guess which one of us is winning?

The idea government assists in the health needs of individuals is based on ideology and emotions.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Your "Standing Army" shows a lack of knowledge of the Constitution. It's not Constitutional.

There should be an amendment to make it a pure standing army, thought officially it is not. But that is how the government weasels out of things. But yet, based on your answers, it is still you that has a massive lack of knowledge about the Constitution.

And let me help you out here boys, there is no right to Health Care in the Constitution.

No crap.

In case you haven't noticed, our society is not solely governed by what the Founders did or did not put in the document

Which is why we have gone to pot. Because the apathetic and uninformed have let them continue their path to total power, ignoring the Constitution. Doesn't mean it's right. It is very much NOT right.

That's how it works.

No, that's how F'n MORONS in our society that are too lazy to pay attention have let things go.

My ideas are based upon reality, the needs of society not emotions. Yours are based on ideology. Guess which one of us is winning?

You are incorrect on both one and two, and no doubt you have a wrong answer for the third. But you have shown yourself wrong again and again in this thread with pathetic dodging and lame attempts at redirection, so your failure is expected.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

The idea government assists in the health needs of individuals is based on ideology and emotions.

No little friend, it's based on need and common sense. A healthy society is a productive one, even a safe one, one that can fight wars no less. And an unhealthy one is a danger to one and all. We have an unhealthy one currently.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

There should be an amendment to make it a pure standing army, thought officially it is not. But that is how the government weasels out of things. But yet, based on your answers, it is still you that has a massive lack of knowledge about the Constitution.



No crap.



Which is why we have gone to pot. Because the apathetic and uninformed have let them continue their path to total power, ignoring the Constitution. Doesn't mean it's right. It is very much NOT right.



No, that's how F'n MORONS in our society that are too lazy to pay attention have let things go.



You are incorrect on both one and two, and no doubt you have a wrong answer for the third. But you have shown yourself wrong again and again in this thread with pathetic dodging and lame attempts at redirection, so your failure is expected.

You must be a big hit in your Jr. High School social studies class? That's certainly the level of knowledge and understanding you have.

So, we no longer strictly follow a document written before man flew in a plane let alone walked on the Moon? Did you know that the Founders expected us to have rewritten the Constitution several times by now, and that they thought the thing, let alone the country, would never last this long in a million years? Did you know that one Founder, I will leave it for you to find out which one because you might learn something in the process, said that a people that used the Constitution after it had served its purpose were akin to a grown man trying to wear a small boy's coat? That they created the form and scope of government that they needed at the time and expected us to do the same when our turn came?

For 220 years we have milked this foundational document along, but if you really looked at it rationally that's not how we live now is it? So, rationally, look at it and then tell me that it still fits with the times and needs of the country it founded, a country where most men couldn't vote, no women could vote, people owned other people, where you got water from a stream or a well you dug yourself, where the best medical care at the time involved what you could find in the garden or the forest, where what you ate was mostly what you could grow, forage, or hunt. Is that our world today? No, it isn't, and we aren't going back to it if given a choice. You are trying to use the past to hold back the future while the rest of us, well, we are moving on and that means beyond the wisdom and knowledge of men 220 years ago.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

You

Personal attack and jibber jabber. Expected. Look, you can just come out and say your emotional based ideology does not account for the Constitution or how it was built with a system to change it if it needed to be changed. It's ok. We understand some people have a problem because it is a logical and rational document that has guided this country to success, and stands in the the way of their emotional needs. Sad and pathetic, but it we understand that such people exist. Maybe someday you will understand and get back on track, but it's ok, there is a balance to the insanely high level of ignorance emotional driven fools bring to this nation.

You do use a lot of words to put forth the basic modern liberal belief that 'it's just an old document written by old dead guys.'