Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:222]

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

what you are telling us is that it is inconvenient for you to accept what the preamble says, that we the people promote those things which are for the general welfare of the people
and single payer health coverage falls in that category.

Now if people like yourself just understood what "promote general welfare" meant in the constitution.

just as the supreme court recently told us that Obamacare should be found Constitutional
yet another reality that you pretend to ignore, because to acknowledge it would upend your ideology

You really want to stand by the supreme court here? Really?

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

ok, arbo
here is the preamble to the Constitution:

i have emphasized the salient portion which gives basis for a national single payer system

Lol! No, what you bolded has nothing to do with the definition of welfare in 1787.

Btw, do you know what the preamble of the constitution is actually for? Hint: It doesn't grant power.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Or people could just pay for their own healthcare.

Personal responsibility? In modern day America? The hell you say.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Btw, do you know what the preamble of the constitution is actually for? Hint: It doesn't grant power.

Clearly he does no know, as he keeps going on about it as if it does grant power.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

this is a stupid way to get to single payer; we should have done that from the start. if it does get us there, that will be one of the few good things the PPACA accomplishes.

Baby steps. Even if it means making everything worse so people love your ideas. There is nothing wrong with that approach. Nope.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Good, they should have started with a single payer system to begin with.

Yes, we put together a law that is meant to make everything worse all so people do exactly what we want and call for more government control. What could possibly be ****ed up about that plan.

You woul think people would see this as bad governance. You would think people would see this as a reason you don't want more government control. Then you realize that people are stupid as hell.

 

[Arbo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

You woul think people would see this as bad governance. You would think people would see this as a reason you don't want more government control. Then you realize that people are stupid as hell.

Those would be the people that fall for the above..

 

[justabubba]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Lol! No, what you bolded has nothing to do with the definition of welfare in 1787.

what a stupid presentation
as if the Constitution was intended only to serve our purposes as they were in 1787
using your "logic" the right to bear arms only extends to the black powder muskets and pistols of that era

Btw, do you know what the preamble of the constitution is actually for? Hint: It doesn't grant power.

let's ignore the tripe you intoduce and instead read something informative; like the preamble:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

notice how it both establishes the Constitution and asserts (among other things) the Peoples' expectation to promote the general welfare
again, that completely upends the backwardness which is your ideology, thus causing you to ignore the very expectations as expressed by our founders

 

[Helix]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Baby steps. Even if it means making everything worse so people love your ideas. There is nothing wrong with that approach. Nope.

nah, there's a lot wrong with it. would be better just to solve the problem in one step, but half of the country still believes that an essential service with inelastic demand can be efficiently delivered via three levels of for-profit companies, and that business owners should be health care providers. it's ridiculous, and it's why we're paying more than anyone else for poorer outcomes.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

what a stupid presentation
as if the Constitution was intended only to serve our purposes as they were in 1787
using your "logic" the right to bear arms only extends to the black powder muskets and pistols of that era

You mean besides words actually mean things and arms logically would expand over time to other arms. While welfare wouldn't logically expand to "aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need" unless someone changed the definition of the word.

let's ignore the tripe you intoduce and instead read something informative; like the preamble:

notice how it both establishes the Constitution and asserts (among other things) the Peoples' expectation to promote the general welfare
again, that completely upends the backwardness which is your ideology, thus causing you to ignore the very expectations as expressed by our founders

I don't imagine you know what they mean by general welfare, do you?

 

[Davo The Mavo]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I personally do not care what the Constitution means, or what the Founders intended as it relates to healthcare in the 21st Century. I know the Constitution is a living document meant to adjust with the times though . . . how that applies to this situation is above my pay grade, and frankly I do not care. All people in a civilized society should have quality healthcare that includes preventative medicine.

I bring up preventative medicine for 2-reasons:
1. The Veterans Administration and the military figured out a long time ago that preventative medicine saved millions of dollars off the top by catching things early and keeping cost down. Many here may blast the VA and Military Healthcare system, but I assure you, through personal experience, it rates right up there with the best insurance policy available. You just have to utilize it. My Mom is 84-years old. Between Medicare and supplements she is buried in paperwork, and has no coordinated care except for consults that send her here there and everywhere. Nothing as simple as my wife and I having everything in house or connected to the same system and believe it or not . . . easily accessible.

2. Preventative medicine keeps people without insurance out of Emergency Rooms. Where most likely, they show up after their problem has lingered and worsened over time. When that happens the treatments are more expensive, and because they have no insurance, you that do, have to pay more for yours. Has the price of health insurance gone down in the last decade and I am not aware of it? If it stays on this same course, does it look like it is going to get cheaper anytime soon? I'm not naive, even if every person in America was covered right now, some people would still use the ER as a clinic, but that could change overtime with patient education.

We have to also stop acting like the government can't do healthcare . . . and can't do it well. My wife and I are patients of the James Lovell Federal Healthcare Facility in North Chicago at Great Lakes. You want an example how to run a federal healthcare system that works? Well there ya go . . . I just gave you one. Is it perfect? Nothing is, but it's better than the civilian care I witness. One Payer? On this I have to say let's go already . . . I hate falling behind the rest of the world in places where we use to be top dog.

I will now await my verbal beating.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

nah, there's a lot wrong with it. would be better just to solve the problem in one step, but half of the country still believes that an essential service with inelastic demand can be efficiently delivered via three levels of for-profit companies, and that business owners should be health care providers. it's ridiculous, and it's why we're paying more than anyone else for poorer outcomes.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but what I think is that's your duty to provide for your own needs and not take from me to help you on your way.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but what I think is that's your duty to provide for your own needs and not take from me to help you on your way.

Everyone else thinks that's a great idea, but that we also have to live in the real world where things are not that simple.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Everyone else thinks that's a great idea, but that we also have to live in the real world where things are not that simple.

It is that simple, sorry. If you want to help someone meet their needs you can easily do that without involving me.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

It is that simple, sorry.

Oh my little friend I wish it was. How easy it would be then, everyone just looking out for number one.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Oh my little friend I wish it was. How easy it would be then, everyone just looking out for number one.

Like I said, if you want to help others you're perfectly capable of doing it without involving me.

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Like I said, if you want to help others you're perfectly capable of doing it without involving me.

Your involvement is probably limited to paying your taxes. In the modern world, where societies and governments are necessary evils, that's as uninvolved as it gets.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Your involvement is probably limited to paying your taxes. In the modern world, where societies and governments are necessary evils, that's as uninvolved as it gets.

Which is involvement I don't desire to take part in to help provide for other peoples healthcare.

This isn't hard.

1. People need help getting healthcare.

2. You care about this problem of theirs.

3. You take it onto yourself to help them.

See how I'm not involved if you do it my way?

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Which is involvement I don't desire to take part in to help provide for other peoples healthcare.

I don't like paying for weapons. Life sucks eh?

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I don't like paying for weapons. Life sucks eh?

Paying for weapons? You mean the military?

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

Paying for weapons? You mean the military?

I mean weapons, those things used by our military, notice the collective there, to kill other people we call enemies.

 

[Helix]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but what I think is that's your duty to provide for your own needs and not take from me to help you on your way.

yes, because you certainly don't benefit from societal structure and stability. take away guaranteed access to health care, and see what happens when the kids of people who can't afford care get sick.

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

I mean weapons, those things used by our military, notice the collective there, to kill other people we call enemies.

So? The military is a legitimate function of government. What does it have in common with healthcare of individual citizens?

 

[Henrin]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

yes, because you certainly don't benefit from societal structure and stability. take away guaranteed access to health care, and see what happens when the kids of people who can't afford care get sick.

They get help from willing members of society or they die?

 

[TiredOfLife]

re: Reid admits to the end game of Obamacare...-[W:22]

So? The military is a legitimate function of government. What does it have in common with healthcare of individual citizens?

The Military provides for the international security of the nation. Security is a societal function. Public health provides for the health of the nation. The health of the nation is a societal function. I realize that you don't agree with the last one but as long as the society you live in does, part of that bill will be yours and the system will include you.

No man is an island, and you are deluding yourself is you think that you are. You can stand on your own two feet all you want, but you are standing on what the people who came before you paid for for most of the time. For that ability, which you didn't ask for but have nonetheless, there's a price to be paid. Get used to it, it's here to stay. It's a trade-off and frankly it's much better than the alternative since no one can go it alone, not for long, and not for the many years someone else paid for what they needed to get onto their own two feet.