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Brexit: spectre of uncontrolled muslim Turk immigration.
Right now Penelope Mordaunt is talking about the highly likely picture of Turkey being a member of the EU in 7 years
On the other hand - video of Boris Johnson in a BBC program a few years ago talking about why we should let Turkey join.
Also on the other hand - the NHS has been invoked by Brexit while NHS bosses have said many posts in the NHS are staffed by EU workers and there would be serious problems if we couldn't keep attracting medical specialists from Europe (and the rest of the world)
Bremain: spectre of economic collapse and war if we leave the EU. Various figures have said that we would lose jobs and there would be various apocalyptic scenarios if we leave. However, various Eurozone nations are indebted to Germany and powering her economic growth - Germany does export to us and would not want to have an economic trade war if we left. The picture of economic collapse of the world's 5th biggest economy is not likely.
On the other hand - George Osborne's claim house prices would take an immediate tumble would be good for young first time buyers who have for the last few years been frozen out of homes. We are otherwise at the silly stage where you could sell a moderate house in the UK and buy a really nice property and have lots of money left over if you bought in Spain / France / Crete etc.
Also on the other hand - the financial districts in Europe's powerhouse nations are physically and in terms of workforce - tiny in comparison to ours. It could be argued that our status as an independent financial centre set aside from EU rules would mean we become even more powerful as a centre for global trade and financial dealings. Those jobs and that industry are pretty powerful and could set deals and ensure its own survival whether inside or outside the EU.
Yes saw this on the newspaper review... utter bull**** as usual from anti-Europe English ........
~utter bull**** ~ bull**** ~freaking
~ No it is not likely, but that does not mean there wont be a massive hit.
~ Well this is a bit silly also. Falling house prices is bad.
~ One could also argue that the only reason that you are a powerful financial centre is because of being in the EU. Like it or not there are "independent financial centres" out there, that have even less regulation than the City of London. Dubai and Hong Kong come to mind. So those that want to go to such areas, have done so already... so why is the City of London so big? One conclusion can be .. it is historical and another.. the EU.
That is where I stopped reading your aggressive, invective tirade.
Leave that kind of rubbish out please. It adds nothing.
There's no evidence either way at yet Pete...
Firstly, I don't think house prices will take the hit projected and I think any fall will be lower than Osborne predicts. But - leaving your inevitable "should have built more houses" comment - we have had problems in the market because they have become an investment rather than a living space and prices are over-inflated and have been for years.
London has always been a trade centre, that is not going to change. You also need to add the reason for London becoming so big is that the American counterbalance stopped any idea of Russian tanks just continuing their journey at Berlin in 1945. The reason there is a free Europe to have a free market and a strong free London is partly also the US. London was (including Pax Americana) a major trade centre before the EU.
Afraid I have to agree with you on this; when the discussion stops being a discussion and all we get is the insults we attract bottom feeders.
It is not rubbish.. ~ How is it an insult to call bull**** for bull****? ~
Plus it is not hard to get access to the EU by Turks as it is. Yes they need a visa, it costs a bit of money, but only 4% of all applications are rejected.. so there is defacto already free access.
~ Penelope Mordaunt is talking about the highly likely picture of Turkey being a member of the EU in 7 years and using Turkey's axis as the hub of the route to blackmail other EU members to force membership. ~
David Cameron has said claims the UK would not be able to block Turkey joining the EU are "very misleading", insisting the UK retains a veto.
~
But the prime minister said this was "absolutely wrong" and raised questions about the Leave campaign's judgement.
It would be "literally decades" before Turkey was deemed ready to join, Mr Cameron said, pointing out that the UK and every other EU member must agree - as well as 28 national Parliaments - to this happening.
You don´t know what you are talking about. Just because 4% got rejected, then it doesn't mean that 96% of the people who want to go to the EU, can go to the EU. People only apply for a visa if they think they can get a visa.
Secondly, your figure is for tourist visa. If you want to live in the UK, then you need a family or work visa.
Look who's saying that.You don´t know what you are talking about.
What are YOU talking about here? If 4 pct of applications get rejected that means that 96 pct of applications don't. Those are the figures, period.Just because 4% got rejected, then it doesn't mean that 96% of the people who want to go to the EU, can go to the EU. People only apply for a visa if they think they can get a visa.
Nobody is talking about giving residence permits, the issue at hand here is visas. Try and understand the difference.Secondly, your figure is for tourist visa. If you want to live in the UK, then you need a family or work visa.
And?I took a look at the actual visa figures.
If you look at all visa types (Tourist, Work, Study, Family) then 8% of Turkish applicants got refused in 2015. This is an increase from 2005, when it was 6%.
Source 2.1 Visas
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...stics-october-to-december-2015/list-of-tables
With the current shenanigans in Ankara we can prepare ourselves for the whole Visa talks to fall flat anyway. Which would also mean the "refugee return" deal that brought the whole thing up.This has become quite the story today: after all the referendum civil war; I think a realignment of positions and appointments may need to be done.
That "judgement" is by members of cameron's own party. Even then though - an early speech by Cameron promising to be the champion of Turkey's membership hopes has emerged from a visit to Turkey in the last Parliament.
With the current shenanigans in Ankara we can prepare ourselves for the whole Visa talks to fall flat anyway. Which would also mean the "refugee return" deal that brought the whole thing up.
And Cameron may sham around in his usual manner (champion of Turkey's EU membership, my bloody foot), he knows he can afford to sound off towards Turkey in this manner without any consequences arising.
Turkey will not be accepted in the medium to long distant future, simply because it meets none of the required standards. In fact now things are as bad (if not worse) as under the military.
But it's not just Cameron wallowing in his own hypocrisy, Merkel and Hollande (and others) are dangling the carrot just as much with just as little intention of letting the mule eat it.
You claimed it is easy because only a minority fail, but that only show you never applied for a visa.And does that change what I said? no... not in the slightest. What I said, was that Turks already have a damn easy time of getting into Europe.
As a EU citizen you can go to another country, apply for the jobs like a local and then settle down.And so what? Any EU citizen moving to another EU country has to have work or the means to support him and his family to be able to settle legally.
With age comes wisdom, with wisdom comes disgust.~.............. I'm not looking to believe anything or anyone in politics in future but it doesn't give much confidence in those we elect to govern us.
What confusion leads you to ignore completely (still) is that the issue under discussion has nothing to do with granting rights of settling, work, residence.~..........As a EU citizen you can go to another country, apply for the jobs like a local and then settle down.
As a non-EU citizen you need the employer to show that he tried to find a eu citizen first. It is hard enough for eu citizens to get work, hence very few non-European citizens can get a work visa in the UK.
What confusion leads you to ignore completely (still) is that the issue under discussion has nothing to do with granting rights of settling, work, residence.
What is scheduled to be discussed is visiting rights, nothing more.
Yes saw this on the newspaper review... utter bull**** as usual from anti-Europe English newspapers. What they have done, is take a poll asking 2000ish people in Turkeys 27 districts the question if they wanted to come to the UK if Turkey joined the EU. 16% said yes, and from this the newspaper has claimed that 10+ million Turks would flood into the UK.
Now first off the question was stupid and leading, and secondly Turks dont want to go to the UK.. they would head to Germany where many have family. So another bull**** story from the leave campaign. This is fearmongering pure and simple.
Plus it is not hard to get access to the EU by Turks as it is. Yes they need a visa, it costs a bit of money, but only 4% of all applications are rejected.. so there is defacto already free access.
You claimed it is easy because only a minority fail, but that only show you never applied for a visa.
Let me tell you what my wife parents needed to apply for tourist visa, from a country that has about the same failure rate as Turkey. They needed to provide a letter from their boss, bank statements, ownership of their house, flight and hotel reservations and much
more. They also need documents from me as a sponsor, or else they would need an interview. In total we had to give them 100 pages per person. Any person who is unemployed would be adviced to not apply.
Its not just to hand in the application and pay some money and hope you are among the majority. Many will see the documents you need to hand in and then just give up. That is why it is meaningless to just look at the failure rate.
As a EU citizen you can go to another country, apply for the jobs like a local and then settle down.
As a non-EU citizen you need the employer to show that he tried to find a eu citizen first. It is hard enough for eu citizens to get work, hence very few non-European citizens can get a work visa in the UK.
What you say is true. Under current treaties the decision to allow Turkish entry would have to be unanimous. What she (Mordaunt) is saying is that EU rules change, constantly, and that it's not so far fetched to believe they could change to favour Turkish accession. She's right as far as that goes. What she ignores, of course, is that any change to unanimity decision-making has to be agreed using the current system, so to discard unanimity voting the member states would have to be unanimous. Not going to happen.Watching Andrew Marr Show today, the political commentators of various newspapers are reflecting that the last four months of both campaigns will focus on the economy vs immigration
Brexit: spectre of uncontrolled muslim Turk immigration. Right now Penelope Mordaunt is talking about the highly likely picture of Turkey being a member of the EU in 7 years and using Turkey's axis as the hub of the route to blackmail other EU members to force membership. Marr did say we (and others) would vote no but she finished by saying we wouldn't be able to vote no. I'm not pro-EU enough to call her bluff but I do know approval of membership depends on unanimous voting and Turkey doesn't meet the requirements for membership.
Yes. What a bastion of principled consistency he is! I guess when a bogeyman is really, really needed Johnson's as willing to throw the Turks under a bus as any other nationality or social grouping.On the other hand - video of Boris Johnson in a BBC program a few years ago talking about why we should let Turkey join.
You don't have to consume the NHS services on a daily basis to understand how dependent it is on non-native staff, from top to bottom.Also on the other hand - the NHS has been invoked by Brexit while NHS bosses have said many posts in the NHS are staffed by EU workers and there would be serious problems if we couldn't keep attracting medical specialists from Europe (and the rest of the world)
True. I'm very critical of all these Treasury/City/EU finance figures weighing into the debate. I don't think they are believed, even if they may be correct. I don't think they have any credibility (look how great they were predicting the 2008 collapse) or impartiality (see how they fed Greece to the wolves just last year), so if they are worried about Brexit they'd be well advised to button it and simply provide the remain campaigners with funds and talking points.Bremain: spectre of economic collapse and war if we leave the EU. Various figures have said that we would lose jobs and there would be various apocalyptic scenarios if we leave. However, various Eurozone nations are indebted to Germany and powering her economic growth - Germany does export to us and would not want to have an economic trade war if we left. The picture of economic collapse of the world's 5th biggest economy is not likely.
Trouble is that older people, those WITH the properties already, are more likely to vote than those for whom falling property prices would be a boon. That's pretty much what happened in the general election last year.On the other hand - George Osborne's claim house prices would take an immediate tumble would be good for young first time buyers who have for the last few years been frozen out of homes. We are otherwise at the silly stage where you could sell a moderate house in the UK and buy a really nice property and have lots of money left over if you bought in Spain / France / Crete etc.
Though the British sector might be much bigger than Zurich and Frankfurt etc, it is still an employer of a tiny number of admittedly influential players. The City sector really doesn't benefit the British economy or government finances very much at all. Corporation tax as a whole contributes just 6.3% to government income. I've never bought the argument that the financial sector is so crucial to national prosperity. If it doesn't create jobs and doesn't contribute to public finances, what does it do that is so indispensable?Also on the other hand - the financial districts in Europe's powerhouse nations are physically and in terms of workforce - tiny in comparison to ours. It could be argued that our status as an independent financial centre set aside from EU rules would mean we become even more powerful as a centre for global trade and financial dealings. Those jobs and that industry are pretty powerful and could set deals and ensure its own survival whether inside or outside the EU.
No, you are either not paying proper attention or being intentionally obtuse. In either case misrepresenting what was said as seems to be the custom with you.You are wrong. PeteEU was talking about people settling in the UK, not visiting rights.
No, you are either not paying proper attention or being intentionally obtuse. In either case misrepresenting what was said as seems to be the custom with you.
The issue at hand was started by you in stating the difficulty of Turks getting Visa. Your claim was refuted as usual.
You brought in work permits and started to conflate EU membership of Turkey with visiting rights.
You don´t know what you are talking about. Just because 4% got rejected, then it doesn't mean that 96% of the people who want to go to the EU, can go to the EU. People only apply for a visa if they think they can get a visa.Yes saw this on the newspaper review... utter bull**** as usual from anti-Europe English newspapers. What they have done, is take a poll asking 2000ish people in Turkeys 27 districts the question if they wanted to come to the UK if Turkey joined the EU. 16% said yes, and from this the newspaper has claimed that 10+ million Turks would flood into the UK.
Now first off the question was stupid and leading, and secondly Turks dont want to go to the UK.. they would head to Germany where many have family. So another bull**** story from the leave campaign. This is fearmongering pure and simple.
Plus it is not hard to get access to the EU by Turks as it is. Yes they need a visa, it costs a bit of money, but only 4% of all applications are rejected.. so there is defacto already free access. .
Secondly, your figure is for tourist visa. If you want to live in the UK, then you need a family or work visa.
Your usual projection problems surfacing again, eh?And once again you are lying and trying to decleare yourself a winner.
............as shown by the fact that it was Pete already refuting your OT deflections.If your arguments was not so pathetically weak, then you wouldn't feel the need to claim that you have refuted anyone.
....who then went on to show that it isn't impossible for Turks to visit the EU right now, i.e. obtain visiting Visas.The issue was not started by me, I responded to PeteEU who was talking about people settling in the UK, not visiting rights. You were wrong.
Focus, eh!You don´t know what you are talking about. Just because 4% got rejected, then it doesn't mean that 96% of the people who want to go to the EU, can go to the EU. People only apply for a visa if they think they can get a visa.
Secondly, your figure is for tourist visa. If you want to live in the UK, then you need a family or work visa..
So you think only 16% want to visit the UK, if they join the EU? That would only be dreadful news for the UK tourism industry. Or maybe he was talking about people settling in the UK, not visitors.In post #22 you even bold the part of Pete's post where he states (16%) wanted to come to the UK if Turkey joined the EU, only to then harp on about the difficulty in obtaining visiting (tourist) Visas in your answer that you also quote Focus, eh!
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