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Referendum finale: Immigration vs Economy

~ Though the British sector might be much bigger than Zurich and Frankfurt etc, it is still an employer of a tiny number of admittedly influential players. The City sector really doesn't benefit the British economy or government finances very much at all. Corporation tax as a whole contributes just 6.3% to government income. I've never bought the argument that the financial sector is so crucial to national prosperity. If it doesn't create jobs and doesn't contribute to public finances, what does it do that is so indispensable?

Corporation tax is down from 40% in 2007 to 14% in 2015 but tax receipts from income earned by employees was very high; bubbling around 14 to 11% of total Govt tax receipts.

Otherwise - what it does in attract high salary workers who will spend in London, these people spend and buy things. Their presence and the shops they go to attract others.

BBC News - London - centric
 
So you think only 16% want to visit the UK, if they join the EU? That would only be dreadful news for the UK tourism industry. Or maybe he was talking about people settling in the UK, not visitors.
What you misunderstand me to think is irrelevant, as is what you intentionally misunderstand others to have said. You wanna talk about lying, look in the mirror.

The post starting this all made clear distinctions between settlement, as in residence and tourism, as in visiting (!st and 3rd paragraph respectively). Addressing both those wishing to come if the EU accepts Turkey as a member and those already able to come without any of that. Something you have been trying to conflate ever since,either by incapacity of comprehending or intentional obtuseness.
Its funny how you will take any position, so that you don't have to admit that you were wrong.
What's clearly funny is your propensity for accusing others of the very thing you are most guilty of yourself.

Not surprising though since you seem to show that as being your favorite behavior. But I'll still call you on it when I encounter it, just as I have been doing in the past.
 
Otherwise - what it does in attract high salary workers who will spend in London, these people spend and buy things. Their presence and the shops they go to attract others.
Does anyone still give credence to trickle-down economics?

Did you see the Newsnight debate this evening? It pretty much torpedoed the Norway, Switzerland and Canada models of post-Brexit negotiations and the Brexit debaters were completely incapable of suggesting what model would be workable.
 
Does anyone still give credence to trickle-down economics?

The alternative is that high earners in London are spending all their money overseas and buying in products, food, housing etc overseas and somehow living in London cost free.

Did you see the Newsnight debate this evening? It pretty much torpedoed the Norway, Switzerland and Canada models of post-Brexit negotiations and the Brexit debaters were completely incapable of suggesting what model would be workable.

No, but today's telegraph shows that the Brexit campaign is haemorrhaging support from the core white, elder Conservative voting base.
 
The alternative is that high earners in London are spending all their money overseas and buying in products, food, housing etc overseas and somehow living in London cost free.
Well, I think the amount that they return to the UK economy is exaggerated. That has been the fallacy that trickle-down theorists have always pushed.

No, but today's telegraph shows that the Brexit campaign is haemorrhaging support from the core white, elder Conservative voting base.
That's the impression I've been getting. Better the devil you know has always been a strong inclination of the older and more conservative voter. As it becomes clearer that the Brexiters are advocating not just a withdrawal from the EU, but also from the single market I think that many people who might be against the EU political project will stop short of rejecting direct access to a market of 500 million.
 
Yeah, y'know IC, I don't really class spending sprees on big ticket items like Ferraris, Sunseekers and Mayfair flats as doing an awful lot to contribute to the UK economy. I seriously doubt you do either.

Hey if you add in hookers, child sex slaves and drugs/cocaine then it will impact the economy for the "average man"..
 
Yeah, y'know IC, I don't really class spending sprees on big ticket items like Ferraris, Sunseekers and Mayfair flats as doing an awful lot to contribute to the UK economy. I seriously doubt you do either.
They're irrelevant in their economic impact.

Even if we had a more even spread of wealth than the top 10 pct owning 44 pct of overall household wealth, contribution to the economy by "the rich" would of necessity remain negligible by comparison. There's a limit to the amount of Sunseekers, Ferraris and Mayfair estates that even the rich could buy, even if they were to spend twice what they're spending. None of these items (double or treble them in sales and revenue returns) carry an economy.

One need note in this context that the UK, far from being great in the issue of "wealth inequality", is far from being the worst. That's actual wealth (assets in hand) but the picture on income (earnings) isn't all that much different.

The "trickle down effect" is an idiotic economic invention (if it deserves the adjective "economic" at all), it's opposite can be seen as existing more clearly. In fact we can see wealth moving to the top and that's happening mostly by the middle class (the backbone of any functioning economy) slowly (or less slowly) being drained of it, the poor hardly capable already of adding to the flow.

One can find the buying of a third Ferrari or Mayfair flat (in face of living space in London or even greater London being made unaffordable to those hitherto capable) as something morally reprehensible, yet that is an issue of equating particular morality with criticism of an economic system that's defunct. I don't share into the moralizing as I don't share into any concept of forcing money back down again by legislation of more severe taxing. Simply because the result of any such measure will amount to practically zilch. What I share into is the interest in a sustainable (to the extent possible) economy and political ideologies be damned.

The undeniable sickness of the system lies in its structuring and that's what anyone of authority and responsibility needs to address and not just in and for the UK either.

But won't.

As things stand, "The City" does virtually zero for the overall economy and that won't change. Brexit or Bremain certainly won't change it.
 
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Watching Andrew Marr Show today, the political commentators of various newspapers are reflecting that the last four months of both campaigns will focus on the economy vs immigration

Brexit: spectre of uncontrolled muslim Turk immigration. Right now Penelope Mordaunt is talking about the highly likely picture of Turkey being a member of the EU in 7 years and using Turkey's axis as the hub of the route to blackmail other EU members to force membership. Marr did say we (and others) would vote no but she finished by saying we wouldn't be able to vote no. I'm not pro-EU enough to call her bluff but I do know approval of membership depends on unanimous voting and Turkey doesn't meet the requirements for membership.

On the other hand - video of Boris Johnson in a BBC program a few years ago talking about why we should let Turkey join.

Also on the other hand - the NHS has been invoked by Brexit while NHS bosses have said many posts in the NHS are staffed by EU workers and there would be serious problems if we couldn't keep attracting medical specialists from Europe (and the rest of the world)

Bremain: spectre of economic collapse and war if we leave the EU. Various figures have said that we would lose jobs and there would be various apocalyptic scenarios if we leave. However, various Eurozone nations are indebted to Germany and powering her economic growth - Germany does export to us and would not want to have an economic trade war if we left. The picture of economic collapse of the world's 5th biggest economy is not likely.

On the other hand - George Osborne's claim house prices would take an immediate tumble would be good for young first time buyers who have for the last few years been frozen out of homes. We are otherwise at the silly stage where you could sell a moderate house in the UK and buy a really nice property and have lots of money left over if you bought in Spain / France / Crete etc.

Also on the other hand - the financial districts in Europe's powerhouse nations are physically and in terms of workforce - tiny in comparison to ours. It could be argued that our status as an independent financial centre set aside from EU rules would mean we become even more powerful as a centre for global trade and financial dealings. Those jobs and that industry are pretty powerful and could set deals and ensure its own survival whether inside or outside the EU.

Someone just posted this short article from Reuters that points out that the EU has more problems than the Economy and refugees.
Commentary: For Europe, the party's over. It’s not clear what comes next. | Reuters
 
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A little late to say the party is over, austerity and stagnation has been the norm since 2008. Even before that economic conditions were not that good.

However, they do make a lot of good points.

It takes time to crumble and even more for the damage to become realized in the hearts and minds. Then the illegitimacy sets in and the socio-political impacts grow in force.
 
A little late to say the party is over, austerity and stagnation has been the norm since 2008. Even before that economic conditions were not that good.

However, they do make a lot of good points.
Austerity has been around since 2003, precisely to avoid the looming danger of stagnation.

In Germany.

Seeing how the measures worked in a time where the economics of one country made them "affordable", since then the mistake has been made of applying the one rule for (to fit) all others and in total lack of address of completely different parameters governing the times and those "others".

As to economic conditions not being all that good before 2008, perhaps you'd care to elaborate where you gained this pearl of wisdom?
 
I can't help the impression that the Brexit camp are getting a little desperate.

CjUCA5hWYAAWbuo.jpg:large


CHIVALRY?
 
The Brexit folks are fighting some very powerful moneyed and controlling interests.
 
Yeah, y'know IC, I don't really class spending sprees on big ticket items like Ferraris, Sunseekers and Mayfair flats as doing an awful lot to contribute to the UK economy. I seriously doubt you do either.

They're irrelevant in their economic impact.

Even if we had a more even spread of wealth than the top 10 pct owning 44 pct of overall household wealth, contribution to the economy by "the rich" would of necessity remain negligible by comparison. There's a limit to the amount of Sunseekers, Ferraris and Mayfair estates that even the rich could buy, even if they were to spend twice what they're spending. None of these items (double or treble them in sales and revenue returns) carry an economy.

One need note in this context that the UK, far from being great in the issue of "wealth inequality", is far from being the worst. That's actual wealth (assets in hand) but the picture on income (earnings) isn't all that much different.

The "trickle down effect" is an idiotic economic invention (if it deserves the adjective "economic" at all), it's opposite can be seen as existing more clearly. In fact we can see wealth moving to the top and that's happening mostly by the middle class (the backbone of any functioning economy) slowly (or less slowly) being drained of it, the poor hardly capable already of adding to the flow.

One can find the buying of a third Ferrari or Mayfair flat (in face of living space in London or even greater London being made unaffordable to those hitherto capable) as something morally reprehensible, yet that is an issue of equating particular morality with criticism of an economic system that's defunct. I don't share into the moralizing as I don't share into any concept of forcing money back down again by legislation of more severe taxing. Simply because the result of any such measure will amount to practically zilch. What I share into is the interest in a sustainable (to the extent possible) economy and political ideologies be damned.

The undeniable sickness of the system lies in its structuring and that's what anyone of authority and responsibility needs to address and not just in and for the UK either.

But won't.

As things stand, "The City" does virtually zero for the overall economy and that won't change. Brexit or Bremain certainly won't change it.

Well I think we're veering off topic but let's carry or explore the social and economic implications instead then - we tax the most highly paid "till the pips squeak" and most will leave. There's a stronger guarantee that a vast section of the city (which is what we started off with) would move if we raised taxes than if we left the EU.

I see the city as something that adds to the economy of the UK, taxes added to the UK economy as well as adding to the engine that is London: especially when you compare it to other capital cities. For me, facts are straightforward - looing at the status and economy of London from when the city was first deregulated vis a vis other similar capitals and then London now.

If you have alternative economic models that mean we don't have the city, please present them. We don't manufacture to the same extent we used to, we don't have the spread of manufacture we used to so I'm curious how we achieve greater prosperity that adds to the general economy of the UK?
 
Well I think we're veering off topic but let's carry or explore the social and economic implications instead then - we tax the most highly paid "till the pips squeak" and most will leave. There's a stronger guarantee that a vast section of the city (which is what we started off with) would move if we raised taxes than if we left the EU.
To stay (somewhat) with the topic of immigration vs. economy on leave or stay I'll maintain that "The City's" role is overestimated. As such, as I already stated, higher taxation answers nothing. Not the Brexit/Bremain issue and not the "broken" system.

For one thing financiers will stay and will keep coming if conditions remain (are kept) favorable, leave or not leave. For another revenues thus gained will not make the punch that many delude themselves into being made so far.

I seem to recall your mentioning of being somewhere further North. So what impact does The City have on your crowd? Because if we agree that taxes gathered are not and cannot be of the impact that they are in places like Luxembourg (+500,000 population and most of them living IN some bank, compared to +60 million, most of them never getting to know what a London banker even looks like), then how does the actual City consumer market that comprises bankers' and investors' wives plus more easily quenched desires for luxury cars and flats reflect favorably on Durham (for instance)?

I see the city as something that adds to the economy of the UK, taxes added to the UK economy as well as adding to the engine that is London: especially when you compare it to other capital cities. For me, facts are straightforward - looing at the status and economy of London from when the city was first deregulated vis a vis other similar capitals and then London now.
I'll agree with all of that but look at the mono-culture thus established. What's more look at the geographical confinements in which it dwells (even where investments do indeed venture further afield from London). What good is having a capital city that looks better than most others when even smaller towns in other countries provide far more of their inhabitants with (pro ratio) better living? On models based on actually producing something of substance that will sell?

The bigger the country, both by size (involving infrastructure needs of all sorts) and population (involving means of income thruout it and its terrain), the less you can bank (excuse the pun) the overall economy on having an international financial centre in its capital. Even France, economically panting as it currently is, doesn't depend on that and Germany even less so.

If you have alternative economic models that mean we don't have the city, please present them. We don't manufacture to the same extent we used to, we don't have the spread of manufacture we used to so I'm curious how we achieve greater prosperity that adds to the general economy of the UK?
You've clearly answered the why already. What other measure is there than to look back at how a nation producing well sought after products at one time (from cars to heavy industry products to pharmaceuticals to chemicals etc. etc. etc.) lost all that to replace it with the pipe dream of a precarious banking sector (they all are, everywhere) ever being able to serve as a substitute? And to at least slowly start thinking about ways of reversing the whole process, at least in whatever parts possible?

I have no pronounced political leaning other than being fiscally and economically conservative. But "conserving" didn't happen when it should have been envisaged with greater vigour. Rather than letting a housewife that believed you learn everything you need to learn about economy by living above a corner shop, let her subsequent ignorance of macro-economics lead her to the rabid deregulation campaign that Britain suffers from to this day.

Nevertheless, as a summary (and to return to the topic once again), the existence and maintenance of "The City" is IMHO not of pertinence to anyone's voting of either leave or remain. With tighter regulations being both as infeasible as unwise right now (nothing to even partially replace it in sight) and big political noises from some, of curbing its access to the European market being nothing more than that (money decides, not politicos), it'll carry on.

Within or without, finance flows rarely needing passports.
 
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Well I think we're veering off topic but let's carry or explore the social and economic implications instead then - we tax the most highly paid "till the pips squeak" and most will leave.
That's a myth that Tories and right-wingers have used since time immemorial. It doesn't happen.

There's a stronger guarantee that a vast section of the city (which is what we started off with) would move if we raised taxes than if we left the EU.
Only if the financial services industry abandoned London, and that has never and will never happen.

I see the city as something that adds to the economy of the UK, taxes added to the UK economy as well as adding to the engine that is London: especially when you compare it to other capital cities. For me, facts are straightforward - looing at the status and economy of London from when the city was first deregulated vis a vis other similar capitals and then London now.
Then how do you explain the fact that as a result of that deregulation the financial markets collapsed in 2008 and saddled the UK with the biggest external debt of any country in the developed world except the US?
 
..............Then how do you explain the fact that as a result of that deregulation the financial markets collapsed in 2008 and saddled the UK with the biggest external debt of any country in the developed world except the US?
I'm still surprised even today that it took that long (i.e. Lehmann collapsing), seeing how the US abolished the Glass Steagall Act well after Thatcher was gone and thus long after her administration had deregulated.

Pure luck, I guess, that it didn't happen earlier in UK.
 
To stay ~ finance flows rarely needing passports.

There's an element of us talking at cross purpose I'm afraid and that's probably my fault.

On the city, the original point seemed to have been with regard to beneficial effect of a city financial sector to the UK economy and I would tend to go with govt taxation figures which state that we do tax city workers and those taxes contribute to paying the costs of running the economy. Our cities have economies, those economies are part of and contribute to the country as a whole so to answer your question, I think it may not be easy to trace a £ coin spent in London directly to show it benefits us here in the north but I strongly feel if you did take that economic sector out of the equation that we would feel the cost up here.
We are an interlinked economy so while I would not rabidly support the theory of trickle down and suggest that paying bankers millions in bonuses means they will buy british and spend exclusively on British goods and services but I do see that the housing, services and exclusive products that can be bought in London are part of the expenditure that bankers will spend some of their bonuses and salary on. Like I said to Andy elsewhere - to suggest otherwise is to suggest these people are paid and either squirrel all their earnings away or spend exclusively overseas and somehow spend little in the UK.

Now - to intermix that separately with the Brexit / Bremain argument - I'm not arguing anything to do with the city beyond that I feel the city would adapt if we left, there would be a shrink to the economy but the city is too well established to suffer to the extent that the city would uproot and move wholesale to Frankfurt and or Paris. Although a lot of Eurozone wholesale financial trading would shift pretty quickly, I feel that the city of London has established itself on the global scene and
could develop elsewhere.

You accept the dominance of the city as part of the source for out GDP, it is in fact not as huge as some might feel. I posted for Pete a while ago stats showing that even though our manufacturing had shrunk from the 70's, it was still approx. Figures and contribution to the UK economy Parliament briefing.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06193/SN06193.pdf

Anyhow, yes the primary economic benefit affects the London area but I would add that life in the other areas of the UK are comparable to many parts of Europe. You ask a difficult question though regarding better living standards - how does a slower pace of life in a sleepy French small town compare with a similar town (if there is such a thing) in the UK? Weather and wine apart, does life in a backwater in France fare better than life in a similar backwater in Yorkshire or Aberdeenshire? Housing costs apart, I would say yes.

Finally, you're obviously not a Thatcher fan from how you describe her affect on the UK but from our conversations I guess you are familiar with the 1970's which although a vibrant period of culture in the UK were also a period when we produced goods the world didn't want. I remember seeing Allegro cars returned from Japan, failing to get through borders because of shoddy production. I remember poor production, unionised labour and battles at the workplace just to get goods produced. You may disparage Thatcher's deregulation but it was something that many other countries also did after us. Some in the EU and others elsewhere. I also think you disparage her educational success - she did not learn all she needed above her father's grocer's shop - she went on to Oxford too.

The sick man of Europe is not a tag I hanker for.
 
That's a myth that Tories and right-wingers have used since time immemorial. It doesn't happen.

Only if the financial services industry abandoned London, and that has never and will never happen.

Then how do you explain the fact that as a result of that deregulation the financial markets collapsed in 2008 and saddled the UK with the biggest external debt of any country in the developed world except the US?

I have to go arm wrestle on another thread but quickly - the pips squeak wasn't a Conservative policy but a Labour one. I think it was Wilson initially who introduced supertax which drove the beatles to write songs about it? (I may be wrong)

Second, financial services have always been here but we do get a lot of business because of Eurozone wholesale financial trading - trade that would leave to EU financial centres if we left.

Eurozone banks only locate their wholesale activities in London because the UK is part of the single market. Without the passport, all this eurozone business would fast migrate back across the channel

Finally, did non deregulation save other financial centres in the global (key word) crash of 2008? If not, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

Besides, which non US body could have predicted the results of a domestic US policy (sub-prime market) on everything else? To blame that on deregulation or Thatcher is wrong.
 
There's an element of us talking at cross purpose I'm afraid and that's probably my fault.

On the city, the original point seemed to have been with regard to beneficial effect of a city financial sector to the UK economy and I would tend to go with govt taxation figures which state that we do tax city workers and those taxes contribute to paying the costs of running the economy. Our cities have economies, those economies are part of and contribute to the country as a whole so to answer your question, I think it may not be easy to trace a £ coin spent in London directly to show it benefits us here in the north but I strongly feel if you did take that economic sector out of the equation that we would feel the cost up here.
We are an interlinked economy so while I would not rabidly support the theory of trickle down and suggest that paying bankers millions in bonuses means they will buy british and spend exclusively on British goods and services but I do see that the housing, services and exclusive products that can be bought in London are part of the expenditure that bankers will spend some of their bonuses and salary on. Like I said to Andy elsewhere - to suggest otherwise is to suggest these people are paid and either squirrel all their earnings away or spend exclusively overseas and somehow spend little in the UK.

Now - to intermix that separately with the Brexit / Bremain argument - I'm not arguing anything to do with the city beyond that I feel the city would adapt if we left, there would be a shrink to the economy but the city is too well established to suffer to the extent that the city would uproot and move wholesale to Frankfurt and or Paris. Although a lot of Eurozone wholesale financial trading would shift pretty quickly, I feel that the city of London has established itself on the global scene and
could develop elsewhere.

You accept the dominance of the city as part of the source for out GDP, it is in fact not as huge as some might feel. I posted for Pete a while ago stats showing that even though our manufacturing had shrunk from the 70's, it was still approx. Figures and contribution to the UK economy Parliament briefing.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06193/SN06193.pdf

Anyhow, yes the primary economic benefit affects the London area but I would add that life in the other areas of the UK are comparable to many parts of Europe. You ask a difficult question though regarding better living standards - how does a slower pace of life in a sleepy French small town compare with a similar town (if there is such a thing) in the UK? Weather and wine apart, does life in a backwater in France fare better than life in a similar backwater in Yorkshire or Aberdeenshire? Housing costs apart, I would say yes.

Finally, you're obviously not a Thatcher fan from how you describe her affect on the UK but from our conversations I guess you are familiar with the 1970's which although a vibrant period of culture in the UK were also a period when we produced goods the world didn't want. I remember seeing Allegro cars returned from Japan, failing to get through borders because of shoddy production. I remember poor production, unionised labour and battles at the workplace just to get goods produced. You may disparage Thatcher's deregulation but it was something that many other countries also did after us. Some in the EU and others elsewhere. I also think you disparage her educational success - she did not learn all she needed above her father's grocer's shop - she went on to Oxford too.

The sick man of Europe is not a tag I hanker for.
Just as quickly (re.: your next post),

1) I repeat my reference to the imprudence of basing the economy of a country the size of Britain on the financial sector.

2) In a country of that size the positive impact on consumer markets and the tax office that any bankers may have should not be exaggerated

3) By living conditions I was not referring to wine and sun

4) I was quoting Thatcher's own words. I won't go into her blind belief in the "Chicago boys" and her trust in the Chilean solution (economics), just to say that going to Oxford means squat if you then leave your loaf at the door of whatever institution infatuates you next.

5) Lastly the quality decline of both British products and the environment they emanated from was not addressed sensibly. There's no dispute over appalling management (I witnessed it myself close up), unions having gone rabid and production lines turning out nothing but crap. But addressing those problems by flogging the whole lot off to anyone offering enough (often not even that), asides from wishing to destroy the unions completely, is/was no way of healthily addressing the ailment that made Britain sick.

6) I'll address deregulation (most important effect having been in the financial sector) in a following response to your #47
 
...................Finally, did non deregulation save other financial centres in the global (key word) crash of 2008?
No, but none outside of US was hit as hard as a country as UK was.
If not, then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Pointing out exactly what I previously remarked was what Andy's bark consisted off
saddled the UK with the biggest external debt of any country in the developed world except the US?
Besides, which non US body could have predicted the results of a domestic US policy (sub-prime market) on everything else?
I did. But so as not to appear as gobbling the limelight, many others did. As early as 1999 when Gramm-Leach-Bliley was implemented in the US (well, in my case maybe a year later).
to blame that on deregulation or Thatcher is wrong.
I'd hazard the guess that your field of activity at the time was not economics. Because both deregulations are to blame, Thatcher's (actually not solely hers) even having provided greater vulnerability by having been enacted way before.

None of which justifies making the current set-up of financial sector a key point in the referendum (see, I DO try to get back to base :mrgreen:).
 
Just as quickly (re.: your next post)

Too quickly as we are again talking past each other..

1) I repeat my reference to ~ wine and sun

I wasn't.

4) I was quoting Thatcher's own words. I won't go into her blind belief in the "Chicago boys" and her trust in the Chilean solution (economics), just to say that going to Oxford means squat if you then leave your loaf at the door of whatever institution infatuates you next.

However, leaving aside that Peter Jay (under labour) was going to try some of Freidman's ideas and would not have been given the chance by the Labour party paymasters, the end results took the UK from being a basket case to a stronger economy. The change from manufacture of low quality goods to a financial and insurance services sector sees the UK at the front of specialised manufacture right now. We still have a manufacture base - I've argued its existed ad mauseum with peteEu several times.

5) Lastly the quality decline of both British products

There you are simply wrong. Instead of churning out poor quality products, the UK manufacture sector has largely specialised in the highest quality engineering and components production.

and the environment ~ made Britain sick.

Worthy of a thread all of its own, in fact I've had several similar discussions with Andy about whose version of history reflects events in the 70's and 80's. I will admit being the sole "Europe poster" who thinks we did better economically and that manufacturing events in the UK are a horror story.


No, but ~ Andy's bark consisted off

I find it hard to lay the blame on Thatcher alone as there had been several govts who had the power in the 15 years since to change rules, policy and regulatory practice. Anyhow, policy across the seas left us exposed beyond simple deregulation. You forget the huge rise in oil prices as China boomed, the collapse of Lehman brothers and yes at home our banks tried to become city corporations rather than the traditional banks we used to know which left them over exposed to the housing market bubble and credit crunch. I repeat again - the crunch hit nearly everyone and we learn more from looking at those economies which survived than by blaming Thatcher over 30 years ago.

I'd hazard the guess that your field of activity at the time was not economics.

Ha. Nicely put and I won't respond in kind.

Anyhow, I was finishing my school years before university / joining the military but I trained academically to go into manufacturing industry and saw and experienced first hand old practices and thinking which meant we were doomed. British engineering designers were highly prized overseas (including in my field of automotive where my colleagues and superiors were working wonders for German, American and other companies while being derided and demeaned in the UK.

Because both deregulations are to blame, Thatcher's (actually not solely hers) even having provided greater vulnerability by having been enacted way before.

No, deregulation was hugely important and fundamental. Where I can point a finger of blame is that (like the housing policy of council house home ownership) a great idea should have gone hand in hand with replenishment of stock (in housing) and a serious attempt at redeveloping and real investment in new industry. Those things have happened though far slower than Thatcher originally thought. Dundee, Middlesbrough and Newcastle etc have lost their traditional industries but have become centres for new industries in games and digital media production. We have world class companies up here and although competition for jobs is global and we have Japanese, Canadians etc here we also have many locals who get into these industries.

Going back to London, there is huge growth in production and the design industries again as creatives are all working in close proximity and opportunities are very real.

None of which justifies making the current set-up of financial sector a key point in the referendum (see, I DO try to get back to base :mrgreen:).

Well done... but I wasn't? That was our talking past each other.
 
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