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Red State is a Poor State

I'm sure Chinese and Indian cities attract a lot of workers too. Doesn't mean they are nice places to live. But, I am sure that fact escapes most conservatives.

The fact escapes you that people are flocking to TX in spite of your rhetoric but the reality is you cannot seem to understand why nor do you want to. You think it is the liberal responsibility to provide you "free stuff" paid for by someone else.

Obviously you are someone who cares more about free stuff paid for by someone else vs. cost of living and quality of life. All those social programs mean more to you than fiscal issues but apparently not to the millions flocking to the southern states. Seems they want jobs, low taxes, low cost of living and of course no healthcare or so you think
 
No, you've bought the red state/blue state script outright and lie by omission. You leave out whatever data works against your presumption. And no again, your sources don't at all "prove the lower cost of living in Tennessee is not sufficient to make up for the lower incomes". Further you're comparing a service economy state with an agrarian economy state. Mn's GDP is 32 billion more than TN's, largely due to it being a banking center. Red/blue politics has little to do with that - bank favorable laws are more likely the explanation.

Then you further jump the shark by choosing two cities to compare. Of course you may or may not know TN is still largely rural population whereas 60% of Mn's population (and main revenue generators) lives in the area of the MN city you chose.

Amazing, you still accuse others of lying and then go on to make factually incorrect statements.

You state that: " TN is still largely rural population whereas 60% of Mn's population (and main revenue generators) lives in the area of the MN city you chose."

That is simply untrue. A full 70% of the residents of TN live in metropolitan areas. http://archive.knoxmpc.org/locldata/mcsa04.pdf

It's actually more urbanized than MN is. You also state that: "Further you're comparing a service economy state with an agrarian economy state."

Untrue again. 43% of Tennessee is devoted to agriculture. TDA - Farmland Legacy Resources
54% of Minnesota is farmland. Landscapes of Minnesota: A Geography - John Fraser Hart, Susy S. Ziegler - Google Books

So actually, your entire point is completely wrong. Unlike you though, I am not going to call you a liar. I am just assuming you are arguing from ignorance and unable to admit when you are wrong.
 
Amazing, you still accuse others of lying and then go on to make factually incorrect statements.

You state that: " TN is still largely rural population whereas 60% of Mn's population (and main revenue generators) lives in the area of the MN city you chose."

That is simply untrue. A full 70% of the residents of TN live in metropolitan areas. http://archive.knoxmpc.org/locldata/mcsa04.pdf

It's actually more urbanized than MN is. You also state that: "Further you're comparing a service economy state with an agrarian economy state."

Untrue again. 43% of Tennessee is devoted to agriculture. TDA - Farmland Legacy Resources
54% of Minnesota is farmland. Landscapes of Minnesota: A Geography - John Fraser Hart, Susy S. Ziegler - Google Books

So actually, your entire point is completely wrong. Unlike you though, I am not going to call you a liar. I am just assuming you are arguing from ignorance and unable to admit when you are wrong.

Do you have a point with all this? What is quite telling is the reality that people are moving to the South for a reason and climate isn't the total reason. Opportunity is at least when it comes to TX. Think the Blue states have the answer? They sure do to debt, unemployment, and entitlements?
 
Lol !


Its one desperate flailing attempt at mitigation and denial after another from you people.

What left wing sourced nonsense can you post next ?

California used to be a great State. A economic power house. But Liberalism took over and effectively bankrupted it.

Now, its the home to 1/3 of the Nations Welfare recipients and has a Trillion dollars in unfunded liabillities to contend with.

Good luck with that.

One of the best things about Texas is, its not California.

Then it might interest you to know that low income Californians are migrating to Texas in droves. Which means Californias welfare problem is now becoming Texas's welfare problem.....

Jobs Aren't Leaving California For Texas, But People Are - Forbes
 
What you fail to recognize is that state policies on top of Federal policies affect the cost of living in all the states. California has among the highest state taxes in the nation because all those "free" things aren't really free and have to be paid for by state policies and thus taxes. Even with all those state taxes California remains billions in debt and billions in unfunded liability. It seems that the people there care more about social issues such as gay marriage, pot, free stuff than they do on the economic conditions in the state. Fiscal issues are of no concern to people who live off the taxpayers and get all that "free" stuff.

I agree that California is a mess. However, California would be an extremely expensive place to live regardless of who was running it because of its climate and natural features. However, I don't consider California a model of progressive government in action. I consider California to be a model of what happens with you take a progressive government to its absolute extreme with little regard to pragmatism.

I know you are a Texan, so you may disagree, but when I think of a model conservative state - I don't think of Texas. Yes, there are lots of jobs to be had in Texas and in most of the state you can by a big house in the burbs pretty cheap, but outside of the Austin area, the over all quality of life in Texas is not that great. For example, my wife is from Houston. We go down to Houston every year to visit her family. Economically Houston is booming. We have talked before about moving down there before given how cheap you can buy a home down there and how good the job market is. However, when we compare it to Kansas City in terms of overall quality of life, from our perspective the area is quite lacking. For example, some of the suburban school districts in Houston are good, but they still don't compare to the better school districts here. There are some parks and green space in Houston, and a couple of the communities there do a good job of it like The Woodlands, but all and all the place makes Kansas City look like Portland. From any community in Kansas City you could bike to downtown and have designated bike routes and lanes the whole way in. Unless you happened to live right on the Buffalo Bayou trail, I can't imagine how you could ever pull that off in Houston. Within an hour of my house there is hundreds of miles of cumulative mtb trails and single track. There is some in the Houston area, but very little in comparison. I could not even begin to tell you how many miles of paved bike trails there are in the area, or in JoCo alone, but I can tell you its a good bit more than you will find in the Houston area despite it being a much larger metro. A lot of developments down there don't even have sidewalks. I can go for a run on a 15 degree day here and still encounter lots of runners. I can go for a run on a 60 degree day down there and seldom ever encounter any other runners. The same is true when I carry my road bike down there. I know there are runners and cyclists in Houston, but as a percentage of the population it has to be one of the lowest in the nation.

All of what I have just said about Houston could easily be applied to DFW as well in comparison to most other cities. Austin in this regard is by far the exception down there, and you can thank all the greenies in the Austin area for that. The state of Texas as a whole is like this. Sure there are some state parks, Big Bend National Park, and some small National Forests in East Texas, but there are small states with far more public land than the whole state of Texas has. Hell Missouri has millions of acres thanks to an 1/8th cent statewide sales to tax that goes to the Department of Conservation. As a result there are millions of acres in Missouri to fish, swim, hike, hunt, bike and so on in the state available to anyone. Arkansas is the same way and for the same reason. In fact, growing up in Arkansas we thought it was like the Adirondacks for Texans in that it was where Texans went for actual wildlands.

My point is that yes, Texas is a place with jobs and comparatively cheap cost of living, but in terms of overall quality of life I would not consider it a model for conservative policies at all. In fact, its a perfect example of how things can go wrong when such policies are taken to the extreme. If I were looking for a model state for conservatism, I would think of a place like Utah. It is a deeply red state. Has lower taxes. Is socially conservative as well. Yet, it also has a very high quality of life thanks to excellent schools, loads of green space and public land, smart development and so on.
 
So basically your argument is that
welfare reduced poverty...which is the purpose of welfare.

I suggest you look up what poverty is. Welfare is different than poverty.

My argument is States like California are disproportionately filled with people on Welfare because Liberal Government policies create more poverty.
 
Then it might interest you to know that low
income Californians are migrating to Texas in droves. Which means Californias welfare problem is now becoming Texas's welfare problem.....

Jobs Aren't Leaving California For Texas, But People Are - Forbes

LOL !!

You think people on Welfare have the money to pick up and move several States East ?

How ridiculous.

You think Californians, who're dependent on Welfare are going to move to a State that enforces the 1996 Welfare Reform law ?

Because California DOESN'T enforce Welfare work requirements so it works out real well for us.

We get Cali's citizens who want to work and support their families, and Cali keeps its welfare class.

Its a Win Win !!
 
It's actually an amazing correlation--Vote GOP and your state is probably in poverty.

n-POVERTY-MAP-570.jpg



These Nine Maps Show How The GOP is Destroying Southern States | Americans Against the Tea Party

In addition to the Poverty, the Red States are also the fattest states, the highest smoking states, and the most teens getting pregnant states. Which leads them to be the most unhappy states.

No wonder conservatives like those angry rants on Fox News and Rush Radio. By and large, they live a miserable existence.

California has more people living in poverty than any other state. :eek:

Over 6.5 MILLION !!!!

Who in the #### is in charge of Sacramento ? :thinking
 
LOL !!

You think people on Welfare have the money to pick up and move several States East ?

How ridiculous.

You think Californians, who're dependent on Welfare are going to move to a State that enforces the 1996 Welfare Reform law ?

Because California DOESN'T enforce Welfare work requirements so it works out real well for us.

We get Cali's citizens who want to work and support their families, and Cali keeps its welfare class.

Its a Win Win !!

"Are we there yet, pa?"

oakies-car.jpg


Think of it this way, they migrated to California for low paying jobs without benefits and now their offspring are migrating to Texas for the same thing. What goes around, comes around.
 
CA has lost a lot of it's economic activity as businesses are migrating away due to the high costs of living and to operate there in general.

Not true

California Economy by the Numbers

LEADING JOB CREATION: California added over 230,000 new jobs in 2013 and over a million new jobs since the end of the recession.

TOP 5 GDP GROWTH: California's GDP growth rate was 3.5 percent in 2012 – fifth best in the nation.
 
Who ? NASA ?

Lol !!

Obama has been cutting funding to NASA and its contractors for the last 5 Years.

Companies like Lockheed, Jacobs and Boeing are Laying off people as fast as they can pass out pink slips.

He needs it for his growing class of dependent voters.

Poverty is the only thing Liberals policies really produce

Thanks for acknowledging that govt spending creates jobs.
 
why are southern states poor? it has nothing to do with GOP, it's all because of slavery. the economy of the south was destroyed during the civil war and they were held down and oppressed for decades to follow.
 
why are southern states poor? it has nothing to do with GOP, it's all because of slavery. the economy of the south was destroyed during the civil war and they were held down and oppressed for decades to follow.

Poor little victims

smallest-violin.jpg
 
"Are we there yet, pa?"

oakies-car.jpg


Think of it this way, they migrated to California for low paying jobs without benefits and now their offspring are migrating to Texas for the same thing. What goes around, comes around.

Uh huh.

Why would they leave Cali where they DONT enforce their welfare work requirement laws ?

Nice try, but Cali's has 33 percent of the USs Welfare cases for a reason.
 
TX has the 5th highest poverty rate of all the states in the nation at 16.2%

CA is the 16th at 13.2%

List of U.S. states by poverty rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you come up with a crediable source instead of Wikipedia ?

From your own source:

>"The rank seems to be incorrect? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.205.197.34 (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The rank doesn't correspond to the sort by poverty percent, so it's not rank -- what is it? Also, the rank doesn't sort correctly. It's sorting alpha and not numeric and should be fixed. I'm surprised nobody else has tried to sort by rank... or have they done so and just walked away disgusted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.30.227.240 (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC) "<

Talk:List of U.S. states by poverty rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Amazing, you still accuse others of lying and then go on to make factually incorrect statements.

You state that: " TN is still largely rural population whereas 60% of Mn's population (and main revenue generators) lives in the area of the MN city you chose."

That is simply untrue. A full 70% of the residents of TN live in metropolitan areas. http://archive.knoxmpc.org/locldata/mcsa04.pdf

It's actually more urbanized than MN is. You also state that: "Further you're comparing a service economy state with an agrarian economy state."

Untrue again. 43% of Tennessee is devoted to agriculture. TDA - Farmland Legacy Resources
54% of Minnesota is farmland. Landscapes of Minnesota: A Geography - John Fraser Hart, Susy S. Ziegler - Google Books

So actually, your entire point is completely wrong. Unlike you though, I am not going to call you a liar. I am just assuming you are arguing from ignorance and unable to admit when you are wrong.

Actually, no.

Minnesota is the 12th most extensive and the 21st most populous of the U.S. States. Nearly 60% of its residents live in the Minneapolis–Saint Paul metropolitan area (known as the "Twin Cities"), the center of transportation, business, industry, education, and government and home to an internationally known arts community.

Minnesota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once primarily a producer of raw materials, Minnesota's economy has transformed to emphasize finished products and services. Perhaps the most significant characteristic of the economy is its diversity; the relative outputs of its business sectors closely match the United States as a whole.[56] The economy of Minnesota had a gross domestic product of $262 billion in 2008.[57] In 2008, thirty-three of the United States' top 1,000 publicly traded companies (by revenue) were headquartered in Minnesota,[58] including Target, UnitedHealth Group, 3M, Medtronic, General Mills, U.S. Bancorp, Ameriprise, Hormel, Land O' Lakes, SuperValu, Best Buy and Valspar. Private companies based in Minnesota include Cargill, the largest privately owned company in the United States,[59] and Carlson Companies, the parent company of Radisson Hotels.[6

For 2012, the state held an asset surplus of $533 million, one of only eight states in the nation to report a surplus.[59]

Major outputs for the state include textiles, cotton, cattle, and electrical power. Tennessee has over 82,000 farms, roughly 59 percent of which accommodate beef cattle.[60] Although cotton was an early crop in Tennessee, large-scale cultivation of the fiber did not begin until the 1820s with the opening of the land between the Tennessee and Mississippi Rivers. The upper wedge of the Mississippi Delta extends into southwestern Tennessee, and it was in this fertile section that cotton took hold. Soybeans are also heavily planted in West Tennessee, focusing on the northwest corner of the state

Tennessee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And if you're going to throw around stats, you could at least understand what you're tossing out there - from your TDA link:

The Tennessee Department of Agriculture is dedicated to preserving the state’s farmland while keeping farms profitable. Tennessee farms, including forestry, generate more than $3.1 billion annually, ranking agriculture one of the top industries in the state. With more than 79,000 farms accounting for more than 43 percent of the state’s total land area, it is important to continue supporting this industry. Every year, Tennessee loses approximately 60,000 acres of farmland. TDA is working with partner organizations to give landowners the tools to continue their legacy for other generations to work and enjoy.

Agriculture in TN earns them 20 billion a year, MN 8 billion. As mentioned MN takes in 32 billion more in GDP per annum than TN.

http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publications/farmfacts.pdf
 
Thanks for acknowledging that govt spending creates jobs.

Where ? NASA ?

NASA represents how much of our States total GDP ? Wanna Guess ?
 
Actually, no.


And if you're going to throw around stats, you could at least understand what you're tossing out there - from your TDA link:



Agriculture in TN earns them 20 billion a year, MN 8 billion. As mentioned MN takes in 32 billion more in GDP per annum than TN.

http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publications/farmfacts.pdf

You stated that TN's population was largely rural. That was incorrect.

You stated that MN had a more urbanized population than TN. That was incorrect.

I then pointed out that MN had more farmland than TN. You just stated that MN only produces 8 billion agriculturally. I am afraid you are wrong there as well.

Food and agriculture form a cornerstone of Minnesota's economy | MinnPost It's actually 13.2 billion. Which is remarkable considering that in TN the growing season is considerably longer.

Moreover, there is a note of anger in your argument that I don't get at all. :confused:

You then argue that Minnesota has a much higher GDP than TN. Well no sh** that is my point. I stated that neither state sits on a bunch of oil, both are landlocked, TN is a solidly red state with conservative polices if no income tax and low regulation across the board, while MN is a blue state with progressive taxation, strong environmental protections, and socially liberal, and by every economic and quality of life measure it significantly outperforms TN. Moreover, as I pointed out and used Forbes as a source, the greater income in MN more than makes up for the differences in cost of living.

My point in all that being is that sure, if you compare a poorly ran state like California to a state swimming in oil and natural gas like Texas, California doesn't look so good. However, when you compare similar states red to blue, you can certainly find blue states that outperform red states.
 
I agree that California is a mess. However, California would be an extremely expensive place to live regardless of who was running it because of its climate and natural features. However, I don't consider California a model of progressive government in action. I consider California to be a model of what happens with you take a progressive government to its absolute extreme with little regard to pragmatism.

I know you are a Texan, so you may disagree, but when I think of a model conservative state - I don't think of Texas. Yes, there are lots of jobs to be had in Texas and in most of the state you can by a big house in the burbs pretty cheap, but outside of the Austin area, the over all quality of life in Texas is not that great. For example, my wife is from Houston. We go down to Houston every year to visit her family. Economically Houston is booming. We have talked before about moving down there before given how cheap you can buy a home down there and how good the job market is. However, when we compare it to Kansas City in terms of overall quality of life, from our perspective the area is quite lacking. For example, some of the suburban school districts in Houston are good, but they still don't compare to the better school districts here. There are some parks and green space in Houston, and a couple of the communities there do a good job of it like The Woodlands, but all and all the place makes Kansas City look like Portland. From any community in Kansas City you could bike to downtown and have designated bike routes and lanes the whole way in. Unless you happened to live right on the Buffalo Bayou trail, I can't imagine how you could ever pull that off in Houston. Within an hour of my house there is hundreds of miles of cumulative mtb trails and single track. There is some in the Houston area, but very little in comparison. I could not even begin to tell you how many miles of paved bike trails there are in the area, or in JoCo alone, but I can tell you its a good bit more than you will find in the Houston area despite it being a much larger metro. A lot of developments down there don't even have sidewalks. I can go for a run on a 15 degree day here and still encounter lots of runners. I can go for a run on a 60 degree day down there and seldom ever encounter any other runners. The same is true when I carry my road bike down there. I know there are runners and cyclists in Houston, but as a percentage of the population it has to be one of the lowest in the nation.

All of what I have just said about Houston could easily be applied to DFW as well in comparison to most other cities. Austin in this regard is by far the exception down there, and you can thank all the greenies in the Austin area for that. The state of Texas as a whole is like this. Sure there are some state parks, Big Bend National Park, and some small National Forests in East Texas, but there are small states with far more public land than the whole state of Texas has. Hell Missouri has millions of acres thanks to an 1/8th cent statewide sales to tax that goes to the Department of Conservation. As a result there are millions of acres in Missouri to fish, swim, hike, hunt, bike and so on in the state available to anyone. Arkansas is the same way and for the same reason. In fact, growing up in Arkansas we thought it was like the Adirondacks for Texans in that it was where Texans went for actual wildlands.

My point is that yes, Texas is a place with jobs and comparatively cheap cost of living, but in terms of overall quality of life I would not consider it a model for conservative policies at all. In fact, its a perfect example of how things can go wrong when such policies are taken to the extreme. If I were looking for a model state for conservatism, I would think of a place like Utah. It is a deeply red state. Has lower taxes. Is socially conservative as well. Yet, it also has a very high quality of life thanks to excellent schools, loads of green space and public land, smart development and so on.

First of all I am not a Texan but I moved to TX in 1992. I grew up in the Midwest, spent much of my life in Ohio and Indiana before moving to TX. I live 28 miles north of Houston and I defy you to find a better place to live, 165 miles of hike and bike trails, lakes, woods, and great shopping. I can apply that same statement to the suburbs of DFW, San Antonio, Austin. I traveled all over the country spending a lot of time in California and although a beautiful state the entitlement mentality in that state has destroyed it. Beautiful state, great beaches but everything is provided and paid for by someone else or on credit.

TX has no state income taxes, has a booming economy meaning jobs, has businesses flocking here. If you judge TX by Houston you are sadly mistaken as the quality of life here is incredible.
 
First of all I am not a Texan but I moved to TX in 1992. I grew up in the Midwest, spent much of my life in Ohio and Indiana before moving to TX. I live 28 miles north of Houston and I defy you to find a better place to live, 165 miles of hike and bike trails, lakes, woods, and great shopping. I can apply that same statement to the suburbs of DFW, San Antonio, Austin. I traveled all over the country spending a lot of time in California and although a beautiful state the entitlement mentality in that state has destroyed it. Beautiful state, great beaches but everything is provided and paid for by someone else or on credit.

TX has no state income taxes, has a booming economy meaning jobs, has businesses flocking here. If you judge TX by Houston you are sadly mistaken as the quality of life here is incredible.

I am sorry, but I got to disagree. Like I wrote earlier, there is greenspace, parks, trails, and so on in the Houston area, but it's pretty lacking compared to most major cities these days.

For example. For cyclists, neither Houston or Dallas even make the top 50. America's Most Bicycle-Friendly Cities | Bicycling Magazine

We have more trail races and a bigger trail running and mtb community in Kansas city, a metro of 2.1 million than Houston does.

Bad Ben's Trail Running Site (KC trail runners)

Houston Area Trail Runners - Trail and ultra running club in Houston and surrounding areas (Houston Trail runners)

No city in Texas makes the top 10 lists for Parks: U.S. Cities With The Best Parks - Business Insider

In fact only Texas city, Austin, is even in the top 20 U.S. cities for Parks: The Best City Parks Systems in America - Nate Berg - The Atlantic Cities

Just 1.92% of Texas is public land. http://www.nrcm.org/documents/publiclandownership.pdf

Look, I totally agree that the economy down there is strong. Moreover, you can get a lot of house for your money. Especially in the Houston area. However, I stand by what I said in terms of quality of life. The state and its cities, other than Austin, have a lot of work to do in regards to greenspace, being more bike and pedestrian friendly, public lands, protected wildlands and so on. For younger generations in particular those are huge quality of life factors.

To me, there is a balance between having low taxes, low regulations, and having so little that you don't have the quality of life that one gets from a well ran public sector. I don't like paying taxes, but I do believe in paying enough for lots of bike lanes, parks, green space, good schools and so on.
 
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