Recent Spate of Bear Attacks

[GDViking]

The black bears from my part of New England are on the smaller size, and very shy.

Around here a 400 lb bear is big, 500 or 600 would be a trophy...

 

[yankintx]

Around here a 400 lb bear is big, 500 or 600 would be a trophy...

Holy crap!!

I use to hunt deer with my Dad as a teen in Vermont. In all my years of hunting, and tracking i never did see a bear. Again they are there, but very elusive, good sense of smell. Even the slightest wiff of man those New England bears head further into those Green Mountains the State is known for.

What will get a Vermont bear down from the hills are those wild blue berries. Never had such sweet blue berries in my life, takes me back.

 

[GDViking]

Holy crap!!

I use to hunt deer with my Dad as a teen in Vermont. In all my years of hunting, and tracking i never did see a bear. Again they are there, but very elusive, good sense of smell. Even the slightest wiff of man those New England bears head further into those Green Mountains the State is known for.

What will get a Vermont bear down from the hills are those wild blue berries. Never had such sweet blue berries in my life, takes me back.

In my whole life I've probably only seen four that were over 500...

 

[EMNofSeattle]

There appears to be an increase in the number of bear attacks this Summer.

They include a grizzly attacking a jogger in Idaho:

Grizzly bear with cub charges at man running on Idaho trail, officials say

The grizzly struck the man several times after he laid on the ground to protect himself.

news.yahoo.com

A Californian woman killed while camping in Montana:

Grizzly bear pulls woman out of her tent in Montana, kills her

A grizzly bear pulled a woman from her tent in a small Montana town in the middle of the night and killed her before fellow campers could use bear spray to force the bruin out of the area, wildlife officials said Wednesday.

news.yahoo.com

A black bear attacking a camper in Seward, Alaska:

Bear killed after attacking man sleeping inside camper in Seward, troopers say

Alaska State Troopers said they killed a black bear that attacked a man sleeping inside a camper this past weekend.

www.alaskasnewssource.com

A hiker on the Kenai River Trail was attacked by a grizzly sow after his border collie began chasing the grizzly's cubs :

Mama bear bites Alaska hiker after his dog chased her cubs

While traversing the Kenai River Trail in Alaska this weekend, a man walking with his collie was attacked by the brown brown bear. The trail is now closed for an investigation.

nypost.com

In all fairness, bear maulings are pretty common in Alaska. It is often said that it is not officially Spring in Alaska until someone has been either mauled by a bear or stomped by a moose. However, all of the above bear attacks occurred within the last 10 days.

They are all explainable as well.

• The Idaho man was running away from a predator. That will trigger an attack response every time.
• The Californian women killed in her tent did not know how to camp in bear country.
• The camper in Seward left his camper door open, with all his food inside the camper.
• The hiker's dog threatened the sow's cubs, which elicited the attack by the sow.

While the jogger in Idaho was attacked because he was running away from the bear, he did everything absolutely correctly. Which is most likely why he ended up with only minor, not life threatening injuries.

If you encounter a grizzly/brown bear and it is not already charging you, DO NOT RUN! Assess your location, see if there are any near-by trees with which you can easily climb. While facing the bear, back away very slowly with your arms out-stretched to show the bear you are human. Talk to the bear calmly in a normal speaking voice. This is a very good example of how to properly handle a grizzly/brown bear encounter while on the trial:


You should also never run, jog, or ride mountain bikes when in grizzly country. The key to avoiding bears is to be aware of your surroundings, which you cannot do when you are running or riding down a trail.

If you encounter a grizzly/brown bear and it is already in the process of charging you, DO NOT RUN! If you are not armed with a large caliber firearm, drop to the ground, cover your hear with your hands and arms, and either roll on to your stomach and spread your legs wide so the bear cannot flip you over on to your back, or curl up into the fetal position, keeping your arms and hands protecting your head.

Bear spray only works against non-aggressive or curious grizzly/brown bears. Bear spray is completely ineffective against an aggressive grizzly/brown bear.

The bear is most likely trying to determine whether or not you are a threat. If you do not move, make no noise, and be as submissive as possible, you may get a few minor injuries but you will most likely survive the experience. Exactly like the jogger in Idaho.

Everything I stated above applies to grizzly/brown bears specifically. It does not apply to black bears.

If attacked by the bear, remain calm pull your 44 magnum.

 

[Crosscheck]

If attacked by the bear, remain calm pull your 44 magnum.

You own a .44 magnum?

 

[swing_voter]

This grizzly looks young.

If you and the bear spotted each other at 50 feet away, there's a good chance the bear is going to get you no matter what you're packing. Those things can move.

 

[GDViking]

This grizzly looks young.

If you and the bear spotted each other at 50 feet away, there's a good chance the bear is going to get you no matter what you're packing. Those things can move.

They run faster than a triple Crown winner in short bursts...
They do run slower down hill...

And for those that don't know grizzlies don't climb trees very well, they are good a knocking them over but not climbing them...

Black bears climb like raccoons...

 

[Glitch]

Has there been a study on the causes why bear attacks are increasing? Historically is the trend ticking upwards.

Perhaps we are encroaching on the bears natural habitat. I do know the small black bears in New England are shy creatures, and avoid contact with man. Interesting the bear attacks are predominantly in the West and Mid West.

During the last 50 years there have been 123 fatal bear attacks in North America (including Canada) that resulted in the deaths of 133 people. Or an average of 2.66 fatalities by bear per year. Broken down by the type of bear they are:

Type of Bear​	Number of Attacks​	Fatalities​
Black​	49​	54
Grizzly/Brown​	64​	69
Polar​	10​	10

When broken down by the gender of the victim, 26% were female, 74% were male. When broken down by gender of the victim and the type of bear:

Type of Bear​	Males Killed​	Females Killed​
Black​	28.6%​	71.4%
Grizzly/Brown​	82.6%​	17.4%
Polar​	90.0%​	10.0%

The causes vary widely, some are known while others are not. Ten of those fatalities were caused by bears held in captivity, the remaining 123 fatalities were by wild bears. When broken down by location:

US Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alaska​	26
Arizona​	1
California​	1
Illinois​	1
Maryland​	1
Montana​	14
New Jersey​	1
New Mexico​	1
New York​	3
Ohio​	2
Pennsylvania​	1
Tennessee​	2
Utah​	1
Washington​	1
Wyoming​	10

Canadian Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alberta​	15
British Columbia​	14
Manitoba​	2
Northwest Territory​	5
Nunavut​	3
Ontario​	7
Quebec​	4
Saskatchewan​	3
Yukon Territory​	4

 

[Glitch]

That guy was an idiot.... but we might have been lucky. Hard to tell.

Timothy Tredwell was an idiot. Unfortunately, his idiocy also got his girlfriend killed.

He was also very lucky. After all, he did spend several Summers in Katmai National Park approaching brown bears. I am very surprised he was not attacked sooner. It is also a testament to the tolerance of the bears to suffer such a stupid human intentionally approaching them.

 

[Bodi]

Timothy Tredwell was an idiot. Unfortunately, his idiocy also got his girlfriend killed.

He was also very lucky. After all, he did spend several Summers in Katmai National Park approaching brown bears. I am very surprised he was not attacked sooner. It is also a testament to the tolerance of the bears to suffer such a stupid human intentionally approaching them.

Agreed on all of it... poor girl... Timmy though, can get ****ed. It will confuse the bears on the boundaries...

 

[Bodi]

During the last 50 years there have been 123 fatal bear attacks in North America (including Canada) that resulted in the deaths of 133 people. Or an average of 2.66 fatalities by bear per year. Broken down by the type of bear they are:

Type of Bear​	Number of Attacks​	Fatalities​
Black​	49​	54
Grizzly/Brown​	64​	69
Polar​	10​	10

When broken down by the gender of the victim, 26% were female, 74% were male. When broken down by gender of the victim and the type of bear:

Type of Bear​	Males Killed​	Females Killed​
Black​	28.6%​	71.4%
Grizzly/Brown​	82.6%​	17.4%
Polar​	90.0%​	10.0%

The causes vary widely, some are known while others are not. Ten of those fatalities were caused by bears held in captivity, the remaining 123 fatalities were by wild bears. When broken down by location:

US Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alaska​	26
Arizona​	1
California​	1
Illinois​	1
Maryland​	1
Montana​	14
New Jersey​	1
New Mexico​	1
New York​	3
Ohio​	2
Pennsylvania​	1
Tennessee​	2
Utah​	1
Washington​	1
Wyoming​	10

Canadian Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alberta​	15
British Columbia​	14
Manitoba​	2
Northwest Territory​	5
Nunavut​	3
Ontario​	7
Quebec​	4
Saskatchewan​	3
Yukon Territory​	4

There are wild bears in Illinois, Maryland and New Jersey?

EDIT: I see that you said some were in captivity... that must be it.

 

[Bodi]

This grizzly looks young.

If you and the bear spotted each other at 50 feet away, there's a good chance the bear is going to get you no matter what you're packing. Those things can move.

That is what I have heard. I have seen at least 50+ in the wild... most in places like Yosemite near camp grounds... but I have never seen one run.

 

[Glitch]

last time I was in alaska I saw a black bear as big or bigger than any grizzly I've ever seen...

You guys grow them big up there...

There are two subspecies (?) of bear I have not yet personally seen in the wild. The hybrid polar/grizzly bear.

CBC North - Hunter may have shot grolar bear – or was it pizzly?

CBC North news, weather and information from your favorite local CBC programs.

web.archive.org

Also I have not seen the extremely rare Glacier blue bear. They are located primarily in Alaska's panhandle, and were only discovered in 1895 for the first time. Some think it is a different subspecies of bear, but I think it is just a different coloration of a black bear. Like albino bears, which are just as rare as Glacier blue bears, but still the same subspecies.



I never go by the coloration when identifying a bear. There is too much cross-over between grizzly/brown bears and black bears. It is too easy to confuse a young grizzly/brown with an older adult black bear. I use their ears, and of course the hump on their back as my identifiers. If they are close enough for me to determine the shape of their head, then I can also determine their sex. Males have square box-shaped heads, while females have more triangular-shaped heads.

 

[Glitch]

There are wild bears in Illinois, Maryland and New Jersey?

EDIT: I see that you said some were in captivity... that must be it.

Those bear fatalities in Illinois and Maryland were by captive bears.

The Telegraph - Google News Archive Search

Gettysburg Times - Google News Archive Search

The one in New Jersey was by a wild black bear.

Black Bear Kills Rutgers Student During a Hike in New Jersey (Published 2014)

Darsh Patel, 22, and four friends were in the Apshawa Preserve in West Milford when the animal began to follow them, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[ALiberalModerate]

There appears to be an increase in the number of bear attacks this Summer.

They include a grizzly attacking a jogger in Idaho:

Grizzly bear with cub charges at man running on Idaho trail, officials say

The grizzly struck the man several times after he laid on the ground to protect himself.

news.yahoo.com

A Californian woman killed while camping in Montana:

Grizzly bear pulls woman out of her tent in Montana, kills her

A grizzly bear pulled a woman from her tent in a small Montana town in the middle of the night and killed her before fellow campers could use bear spray to force the bruin out of the area, wildlife officials said Wednesday.

news.yahoo.com

A black bear attacking a camper in Seward, Alaska:

Bear killed after attacking man sleeping inside camper in Seward, troopers say

Alaska State Troopers said they killed a black bear that attacked a man sleeping inside a camper this past weekend.

www.alaskasnewssource.com

A hiker on the Kenai River Trail was attacked by a grizzly sow after his border collie began chasing the grizzly's cubs :

Mama bear bites Alaska hiker after his dog chased her cubs

While traversing the Kenai River Trail in Alaska this weekend, a man walking with his collie was attacked by the brown brown bear. The trail is now closed for an investigation.

nypost.com

In all fairness, bear maulings are pretty common in Alaska. It is often said that it is not officially Spring in Alaska until someone has been either mauled by a bear or stomped by a moose. However, all of the above bear attacks occurred within the last 10 days.

They are all explainable as well.

• The Idaho man was running away from a predator. That will trigger an attack response every time.
• The Californian women killed in her tent did not know how to camp in bear country.
• The camper in Seward left his camper door open, with all his food inside the camper.
• The hiker's dog threatened the sow's cubs, which elicited the attack by the sow.

While the jogger in Idaho was attacked because he was running away from the bear, he did everything absolutely correctly. Which is most likely why he ended up with only minor, not life threatening injuries.

If you encounter a grizzly/brown bear and it is not already charging you, DO NOT RUN! Assess your location, see if there are any near-by trees with which you can easily climb. While facing the bear, back away very slowly with your arms out-stretched to show the bear you are human. Talk to the bear calmly in a normal speaking voice. This is a very good example of how to properly handle a grizzly/brown bear encounter while on the trial:


You should also never run, jog, or ride mountain bikes when in grizzly country. The key to avoiding bears is to be aware of your surroundings, which you cannot do when you are running or riding down a trail.

If you encounter a grizzly/brown bear and it is already in the process of charging you, DO NOT RUN! If you are not armed with a large caliber firearm, drop to the ground, cover your hear with your hands and arms, and either roll on to your stomach and spread your legs wide so the bear cannot flip you over on to your back, or curl up into the fetal position, keeping your arms and hands protecting your head.

Bear spray only works against non-aggressive or curious grizzly/brown bears. Bear spray is completely ineffective against an aggressive grizzly/brown bear.

The bear is most likely trying to determine whether or not you are a threat. If you do not move, make no noise, and be as submissive as possible, you may get a few minor injuries but you will most likely survive the experience. Exactly like the jogger in Idaho.

Everything I stated above applies to grizzly/brown bears specifically. It does not apply to black bears.

I think its worth pointing out that even with this recent spate of attacks, bear attacks are still extremely rare. As always, most people that die in the backcountry die of either exposure or falls.

That said, I think the most probably explanation for the uptick in the lower 48 is a combination of large numbers of visitors this year to public lands and extreme drought which is probably making for more aggressive bears.

Every bear I have encountered in the backcountry over the years either paid me no mind at all or ran. Never had a problem with one other than one time when I got lazy hanging a bear bag and had it raided that night.

 

[Glitch]

I think its worth pointing out that even with this recent spate of attacks, bear attacks are still extremely rare. As always, most people that die in the backcountry die of either exposure or falls.

Bear fatalities are rare, but bear attacks are frequent and very common. Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, it is a common saying in Alaska that it is not officially Spring in Alaska until someone has been either mauled by a bear or stomped by a moose. That gives you some indication how often they occur.

I recall one year shortly after moving to Anchorage in 1991 that there were more people killed by moose and bear within the city limits than by people. Moose are much more dangerous than bears. Bears you can figure out. Their behavior is rational. Moose, on the other hand, are simply psychotic and will attack someone for absolutely no reason. Or they may just stand there and allow some moron to approach them. You can never predict how moose with react. Moose are responsible for more fatalities in Alaska than all other critters combined.

That said, I think the most probably explanation for the uptick in the lower 48 is a combination of large numbers of visitors this year to public lands and extreme drought which is probably making for more aggressive bears.

Every bear I have encountered in the backcountry over the years either paid me no mind at all or ran. Never had a problem with one other than one time when I got lazy hanging a bear bag and had it raided that night.

I've made my share of mistakes that cost me as well. Like when I left those two silver salmon in my backpack on the river bank while I fished for a third. I turned around to get more bait and found my backpack gone, but my camp gun was still where I left it. The brown bear (judging by its track, I never saw the bear) had taken my backpack into the bushes a few yards from the river, and proceeded to rip it to shreds to get the salmon. I didn't mind losing the salmon, but I really liked that backpack.

I try not to make similar mistakes in the future.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Bear fatalities are rare, but bear attacks are frequent and very common. Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, it is a common saying in Alaska that it is not officially Spring in Alaska until someone has been either mauled by a bear or stomped by a moose. That gives you some indication how often they occur.

I recall one year shortly after moving to Anchorage in 1991 that there were more people killed by moose and bear within the city limits than by people. Moose are much more dangerous than bears. Bears you can figure out. Their behavior is rational. Moose, on the other hand, are simply psychotic and will attack someone for absolutely no reason. Or they may just stand there and allow some moron to approach them. You can never predict how moose with react. Moose are responsible for more fatalities in Alaska than all other critters combined.


I've made my share of mistakes that cost me as well. Like when I left those two silver salmon in my backpack on the river bank while I fished for a third. I turned around to get more bait and found my backpack gone, but my camp gun was still where I left it. The brown bear (judging by its track, I never saw the bear) had taken my backpack into the bushes a few yards from the river, and proceeded to rip it to shreds to get the salmon. I didn't mind losing the salmon, but I really liked that backpack.

I try not to make similar mistakes in the future.

Yeah I agree moose can be dangerous. I always try to make sure I have a tree I can jump behind or climb when I encounter one. The problem is sometimes you just stumble upon one laying in the morning and you are feet from it before you even know he is there.

The dumbest things I have ever done in the backcountry didn't involve animals though. A few years ago I was off trail in the Northern Wind River range and weather forced me to camp on Goat Flat that night (It's a high flat at about 12,000 feet). It was cold and extremely windy, so much so that I had to pile rocks around my tent. The next morning I was taking my tent down and just as I pulled the second to last tent stake up, the wind picked up the tent and it went flying across the tundra. I chased it as far as I could and found it nearly a mile away, caught on a ledge below a snowbank. Had it not caught on the ledge somehow, it would have blown of the side of the flat, 2000 feet into the glacial valley below. I was 2 days walk from the nearest road. Could have froze to death had I not found the tent. Since then, anytime I am above tree line like that, I put as big of rocks as I can on a tent as I take it down so that there is no risk of the wind getting it.

 

[BitterPill]

During the last 50 years there have been 123 fatal bear attacks in North America (including Canada) that resulted in the deaths of 133 people. Or an average of 2.66 fatalities by bear per year. Broken down by the type of bear they are:

Type of Bear​	Number of Attacks​	Fatalities​
Black​	49​	54
Grizzly/Brown​	64​	69
Polar​	10​	10

When broken down by the gender of the victim, 26% were female, 74% were male. When broken down by gender of the victim and the type of bear:

Type of Bear​	Males Killed​	Females Killed​
Black​	28.6%​	71.4%
Grizzly/Brown​	82.6%​	17.4%
Polar​	90.0%​	10.0%

The causes vary widely, some are known while others are not. Ten of those fatalities were caused by bears held in captivity, the remaining 123 fatalities were by wild bears. When broken down by location:

US Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alaska​	26
Arizona​	1
California​	1
Illinois​	1
Maryland​	1
Montana​	14
New Jersey​	1
New Mexico​	1
New York​	3
Ohio​	2
Pennsylvania​	1
Tennessee​	2
Utah​	1
Washington​	1
Wyoming​	10

Canadian Location​	Fatal Bear Attacks​
Alberta​	15
British Columbia​	14
Manitoba​	2
Northwest Territory​	5
Nunavut​	3
Ontario​	7
Quebec​	4
Saskatchewan​	3
Yukon Territory​	4

Just as I expected.

Black bears are after our women.

 

[Glitch]

Yeah I agree moose can be dangerous. I always try to make sure I have a tree I can jump behind or climb when I encounter one. The problem is sometimes you just stumble upon one laying in the morning and you are feet from it before you even know he is there.

The dumbest things I have ever done in the backcountry didn't involve animals though. A few years ago I was off trail in the Northern Wind River range and weather forced me to camp on Goat Flat that night (It's a high flat at about 12,000 feet). It was cold and extremely windy, so much so that I had to pile rocks around my tent. The next morning I was taking my tent down and just as I pulled the second to last tent stake up, the wind picked up the tent and it went flying across the tundra. I chased it as far as I could and found it nearly a mile away, caught on a ledge below a snowbank. Had it not caught on the ledge somehow, it would have blown of the side of the flat, 2000 feet into the glacial valley below. I was 2 days walk from the nearest road. Could have froze to death had I not found the tent. Since then, anytime I am above tree line like that, I put as big of rocks as I can on a tent as I take it down so that there is no risk of the wind getting it.

I have not had to camp where there are no trees, thankfully. The only time I've been beyond the tree line is when I was working on the north slope. The very last tree is just south of the Brooks Range, about 200 miles south of Deadhorse and Prudhoe Bay. I have pitched a tent in tundra, and it is almost impossible. It is like setting up camp on a damp sponge. You need some kind of ground for the tent to be supported. There aren't even rocks. Just vegetation that is hundreds of feet deep.

My worst experience camping wasn't in Alaska. It was in Glacier National Park in Montana. My camp got hit by a small avalanche near the continental divide, it was only a few inches deep but it was fast. Just my luck, my tent was facing the direction of the avalanche, so everything inside was completely saturated with snow. Including my sleeping bag. It was a two day hike back to Lake McDonald Lodge. By the time I got back I had a mild case of hypothermia because it rained the entire time and I could not keep dry. The staff at the lodge let me take several long hot showers, but it still took me three days to recover.

Exposure is certainly a bigger threat than either running out of water or food.

 

[Luce]

One cause of this shit is people feeding the wildlife.

 

[Glitch]

One cause of this shit is people feeding the wildlife.

That is illegal in Alaska. Even backyard bird feeders are technically illegal, but I have never heard of anyone enforcing it. However, they do enforce the law with regard to other wildlife, such as eagles, bears, moose, etc. The oil companies will fire you on the spot if you are caught feeding the wildlife. The very last thing they need are the wildlife associating the remote pump stations with food.

 

[Luce]

That is illegal in Alaska. Even backyard bird feeders are technically illegal, but I have never heard of anyone enforcing it. However, they do enforce the law with regard to other wildlife, such as eagles, bears, moose, etc. The oil companies will fire you on the spot if you are caught feeding the wildlife. The very last thing they need are the wildlife associating the remote pump stations with food.

It's illegal here, too, but dumbasses do it all the time. So the bears are more aggressive, the mountain lions are perfectly comfortable approaching people, even the coyotes are aggressive.

 

[911Sparky]

I can only say what I would do. On occasion some type of critter I generally like and even feed will become a pest. Rare. Generally a raccoon, although I like raccoons. I use a live trap and release them in the woodland swamp, which provides plenty of food and safe haven.

In the case of this squirrel, with no children around, I would shoot it with .22 900 fps air rifle and bury the body as it might be carrying some disease.

It's not like live traps are unknown and a trail of shelled peanuts would draw it in. Then turn it over the city animal control. How much of an IQ does that take? It likely is acting that way having been conditioned to being fed if being a pest. I feed squirrels, every morning. Enjoy watching them chase each other around the live oak - and of course feed for wild birds too. A few squirrels will become a pest, climbing all over the outside of the porch screen really grumbling at you. WHERE'S MY BREAKFAST!!!

Hey, the partisan quip was just that, a worthless quip.

My grandfather would feed the squirrels from his front porch, until one afternoon, one of the critters ran past him into the house. He and my grandmother chased it around the house with a broom and finally got it out the door, but not before it ruined grandma's living room curtains and the cushion on the sofa. Grandpa had to find a new pastime for his afternoons.

 

[swing_voter]

1994 (nine injuries), 1997 (eight), 2004 (eight), 2007 (eight), 2010 (nine), 2011 (14) and 2017 (eight) grizzly attacks.

2020, America led the world in number of shark bites, with 33 incidents, a 19.5% drop from 41 last year.

Most grizzly attacks occur in Spring when sows are out with their cubs. Sows will attack males that are much bigger than they are and they'll attack you too.

I wouldn't feel good about shooting a mother sow. Bear spray is a lot better, imo.

.

 

[Glitch]

It's illegal here, too, but dumbasses do it all the time. So the bears are more aggressive, the mountain lions are perfectly comfortable approaching people, even the coyotes are aggressive.

I never see anyone feed the wildlife here (other than backyard bird feeders of course). If I did I would tell them to stop. If they refused I would most certainly report them to the Department of Fish & Game. I have reported salmon poachers in the past, and have absolutely no problem reporting those who violate fish and game laws. The purpose of those laws is to ensure those resources are available for everyone, including future generations. We don't need some selfish prick screwing it up for everyone else.

Thankfully, there are no officially recorded mountain lions in Alaska. Some have claims to see them, but they are like those who claim to see big foot. There were once tigers in Alaska and northern Canada, but they died out over 100,000 years ago.

Our bears are pretty laid back. I have had numerous encounters and the brown/grizzly bears I've met have been very relaxed and unafraid. None of them showed any signs of aggression. The black bears were wary of me, keeping their distance. While the brown/grizzlies didn't really care. The black bears were always more skittish or nervous, while the brown/grizzlies just accepted that you were there, and didn't really care.

I haven't ever surprised a bear, fortunately. I would expect to have a completely different reaction from them in such a case.