Recent mass shooting proves NRA idea on school security completely wrong. (1 Viewer)

[tererun]

So finally it seems some real details come out about the shooting. I will get to the fake ones in a minute. The shooter came in with a shotgun and somewhere along the line picked up a couple of pistols. Now we hear from the NRA that teachers with guns and armed guards are the best way to prevent a school shooting. This Navy facility had armed guards roaming around. These guys are trained with their firearms and supposedly ready to use them. I would assume some of them might even be soldiers. It seems one of the way the shooter may have armed himself is by shooting the armed guards who are supposed to have been there to stop him. The other story is that this guy may have gotten more guns from a gun storage safe. The NRA suggests we have guns in school in a safe for access to the good guys if there is a armed assault on a school.

So this guy has demonstrated that even with a shotgun that is pump action and not a high capacity gun he was able to somehow acquire more guns and ammo off of the guards or from a safe or locker. This proves what i have said all along. A prepared killer is an overwhelming match for flatfooted guards, and that locked up guns are of no use unless the good guys happen to be able to get to them. Even trained armed guards whose sole purpose there was to respond to an attack were no match for dude with a shotgun who they outgunned and outnumbered surprising them. Even if he did not get his guns off of them, they fell.

Now this brings up the confusion in reporting and why that becomes relevant to this situation. Most of these situations are confusing. the facts are easier to get after things are over and a legitimate forensic investigation can determine how and what happened. During the moments where the fight is going on and for a time afterwards the situation is not known by anyone. The people involved do not know the details and neither do the authorities. What does that mean? What was one of the rumors about this? it was that there were potentially, and may still be, more than one person involved. You are a person and you have a gun in this situation where there is nothing but rumors, speculation, and fear for your life. You are more of a danger to the innocents who are running in fear than you are to the shooter. You may not even know who the shooter is. how are you supposed to determine another "good" guy with a gun from the guy shooting? It is not like they wear T-shirts with "I am the shooter" written on them.

So the NRA somehow expects that mildly trained teachers with guns are going to react better than cops and the friggen navy to a shooter that is often armed with much more than a shotgun. This is a perfect example as to why other methods are far more capable of saving lives than a bunch of flat footed undertrained teachers with guns, or even some armed guard from some security force who drew school as his assignment over being a mall cop. In the end a responding cop shot the guy in this case. Not one of the guards roaming the shipyard. It wasn't some armed person floating around. those were both present. He was not killed by some people who got to a gun locker and armed themselves. No, the cops got him. Thank you NRA for being 100 percent wrong.

 

[APACHERAT]

So finally it seems some real details come out about the shooting. I will get to the fake ones in a minute. The shooter came in with a shotgun and somewhere along the line picked up a couple of pistols. Now we hear from the NRA that teachers with guns and armed guards are the best way to prevent a school shooting. This Navy facility had armed guards roaming around. These guys are trained with their firearms and supposedly ready to use them. I would assume some of them might even be soldiers. It seems one of the way the shooter may have armed himself is by shooting the armed guards who are supposed to have been there to stop him. The other story is that this guy may have gotten more guns from a gun storage safe. The NRA suggests we have guns in school in a safe for access to the good guys if there is a armed assault on a school.

So this guy has demonstrated that even with a shotgun that is pump action and not a high capacity gun he was able to somehow acquire more guns and ammo off of the guards or from a safe or locker. This proves what i have said all along. A prepared killer is an overwhelming match for flatfooted guards, and that locked up guns are of no use unless the good guys happen to be able to get to them. Even trained armed guards whose sole purpose there was to respond to an attack were no match for dude with a shotgun who they outgunned and outnumbered surprising them. Even if he did not get his guns off of them, they fell.

Now this brings up the confusion in reporting and why that becomes relevant to this situation. Most of these situations are confusing. the facts are easier to get after things are over and a legitimate forensic investigation can determine how and what happened. During the moments where the fight is going on and for a time afterwards the situation is not known by anyone. The people involved do not know the details and neither do the authorities. What does that mean? What was one of the rumors about this? it was that there were potentially, and may still be, more than one person involved. You are a person and you have a gun in this situation where there is nothing but rumors, speculation, and fear for your life. You are more of a danger to the innocents who are running in fear than you are to the shooter. You may not even know who the shooter is. how are you supposed to determine another "good" guy with a gun from the guy shooting? It is not like they wear T-shirts with "I am the shooter" written on them.

So the NRA somehow expects that mildly trained teachers with guns are going to react better than cops and the friggen navy to a shooter that is often armed with much more than a shotgun. This is a perfect example as to why other methods are far more capable of saving lives than a bunch of flat footed undertrained teachers with guns, or even some armed guard from some security force who drew school as his assignment over being a mall cop. In the end a responding cop shot the guy in this case. Not one of the guards roaming the shipyard. It wasn't some armed person floating around. those were both present. He was not killed by some people who got to a gun locker and armed themselves. No, the cops got him. Thank you NRA for being 100 percent wrong.

What would a soldiers be doing at the Nav Sea Syst Com ? Are they planning on buying some battleships from the navy ? Almost all who work at Nav Sea Syst Com are civilians. You don't see to many active duty at these complexes that are located all across the nation. The biggest one on the west coast is in Corona Ca.

These DOD civilian police are a joke. They are union and are useless. Just another failed experiment.

The question that should be asked, why was the Washington Navy Yard Marine barracks closed ?

Why aren't the military guarding their own gates, providing their own perimitter security and providing their own law enforcement ? They did it for over two hundred years very sucessfully.

The #### going to come down because of this failed experiment of dumbing down the military. I wonder if the buck will stop at Obama's desk ? I doubt it. Lets hope there's no mass shootings at Camp Pendleton since last year Obama ordered civilian police to start policing the Marines at Pendleton.

 

[tererun]

What would a soldiers be doing at the Nav Sea Syst Com ? Are they planning on buying some battleships from the navy ? Almost all who work at Nav Sea Syst Com are civilians. You don't see to many active duty at these complexes that are located all across the nation. The biggest one on the west coast is in Corona Ca.

These DOD civilian police are a joke. They are union and are useless. Just another failed experiment.

OK, and what do you think guards at a school and teachers will be? teachers are not going to be well trained and experienced in tactical situations enough to beat a guard. The guards the school picks up will be from security companies and they are pretty much receptionists. They will be picking up low cost guys who filled out an application and were able to carry. Sop in other words, so bad they are not even funny enough to be your so called joke.

The question that should be asked, why was the Washington Navy Yard Marine barracks closed ?

Why aren't the military guarding their own gates, providing their own perimitter security and providing their own law enforcement ? They did it for over two hundred years very sucessfully.

The #### going to come down because of this failed experiment of dumbing down the military. I wonder if the buck will stop at Obama's desk ? I doubt it. Lets hope there's no mass shootings at Camp Pendleton since last year Obama ordered civilian police to start policing the Marines at Pendleton.

oh, you do not like the argument so you derail. So for the purposes of pretending this is a good idea you tell us our military is a bunch of dumbasses? I wonder if any of the military around here like the fact you think they are stupid? At any rate, you have yet to address how the NRA solution provides a capable response against mass shooters when the navy cannot even hire people to do that job.

 

[Surtr]

The FBI and ATF have both reported that he did not have an AR-15, so we can squash that rumor. There would also be no Soldiers in a naval yard unless there was a joint exercise going on. Even then, the Army and the Navy rarely have anything to do with each other. Another misconception is that military personnel just go everywhere with loaded firearms at all times. It's a garrison station in DC, at best they had a couple civilian jack offs at the gates who wouldn't know what to do if they got shot at. Even if there were weapons on post, they would be locked up in an arms room. Even if he could have magically gained access to the building the arms room is in, those things are like vaults. If you aren't authorized to access a military arms room, you aren't getting in. There aren't enough details to understand the situation yet, anyway, so calm your tits.

 

[APACHERAT]

OK, and what do you think guards at a school and teachers will be? teachers are not going to be well trained and experienced in tactical situations enough to beat a guard. The guards the school picks up will be from security companies and they are pretty much receptionists. They will be picking up low cost guys who filled out an application and were able to carry. Sop in other words, so bad they are not even funny enough to be your so called joke.



oh, you do not like the argument so you derail. So for the purposes of pretending this is a good idea you tell us our military is a bunch of dumbasses? I wonder if any of the military around here like the fact you think they are stupid? At any rate, you have yet to address how the NRA solution provides a capable response against mass shooters when the navy cannot even hire people to do that job.

When it comes to schools, I think Sheriff Joe Arpaio is doing the right thing.

Put Eddie the Eagle back in our schools.

As for the military, time for the the Pentagon to clean house and remove all of these social engineering activist. Time to let the military get back to being being the military.

Most cops are lousy shots. Law enforcement has been dumbed down over the decades.
Raise law enforcement standards to at least those of 1970 or the 60's. Return to having certified NRA instructors who uses the combat pistol training techniques of Jack Weaver and Jeff Cooper.
Return to proactive law enforcement, reactive law enforcement aka progressive law enforcement has been a complete failure in America.
Profile, profile, profile. Jack up bad guys before they commit a crime.

No gun zones is probably the stupidest thing any liberal has ever came up with. » Navy Yard Shooting: Did Gun Free Zone Enable Killer? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Open carry and conceal weapons carry is a no brainer.

All local, state and Congressional legislatures should be required to take a guns litmus test, attend an NRA safety course and qualify on the range before they are allowed to write or vote on any gun legislation.

All Democrats in the California State Legislature should be tarred and feathered and deposited in San Francisco.

 

[APACHERAT]

The FBI and ATF have both reported that he did not have an AR-15, so we can squash that rumor. QUOTE]

So who started that rumor anyways ?

 

[tererun]

The FBI and ATF have both reported that he did not have an AR-15, so we can squash that rumor.

One, I did not say he did. As a matter of fact i consciously waited for an actual good report because of the stupid of the news and the confusion they like to report. That is why this was not here when this was unfolding. So please, do not pretend i have spread any rumors about an assault rifle.

There would also be no Soldiers in a naval yard unless there was a joint exercise going on. Even then, the Army and the Navy rarely have anything to do with each other. Another misconception is that military personnel just go everywhere with loaded firearms at all times. It's a garrison station in DC, at best they had a couple civilian jack offs at the gates who wouldn't know what to do if they got shot at. Even if there were weapons on post, they would be locked up in an arms room. Even if he could have magically gained access to the building the arms room is in, those things are like vaults. If you aren't authorized to access a military arms room, you aren't getting in. There aren't enough details to understand the situation yet, anyway, so calm your tits.

But actually you are showing my exact point. Just having guns on site does not make things safer, as per what the NRA wants and says. Schools are going to have crappily trained guards or teachers who are more concerned with the goings on of the school than being prepared to shoot someone attacking. they may decide to keep the guns in an arms locker like has been reported here which was not used to fight off the attacker, and MAYhave been used by the attacker.

 

[tererun]

When it comes to schools, I think Sheriff Joe Arpaio is doing the right thing.

Put Eddie the Eagle back in our schools.

As for the military, time for the the Pentagon to clean house and remove all of these social engineering activist. Time to let the military get back to being being the military.

Most cops are lousy shots. Law enforcement has been dumbed down over the decades.
Raise law enforcement standards to at least those of 1970 or the 60's. Return to having certified NRA instructors who uses the combat pistol training techniques of Jack Weaver and Jeff Cooper.
Return to proactive law enforcement, reactive law enforcement aka progressive law enforcement has been a complete failure in America.
Profile, profile, profile. Jack up bad guys before they commit a crime.

No gun zones is probably the stupidest thing any liberal has ever came up with. » Navy Yard Shooting: Did Gun Free Zone Enable Killer? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Open carry and conceal weapons carry is a no brainer.

All local, state and Congressional legislatures should be required to take a guns litmus test, attend an NRA safety course and qualify on the range before they are allowed to write or vote on any gun legislation.

All Democrats in the California State Legislature should be tarred and feathered and deposited in San Francisco.

That is a nice bunch of rhetoric but you did not actually argue against any of my points. I understand you are one of the people that think this way, but this situation just showed you are wrong. An attacker can catch a flat footed guard and they are no good for a dedicated person who's goal is body count. Even in the situation the solution the NRA is supposed to work with, it clearly failed in a place that would be much more prepared than a school.

 

[trfjr]

One, I did not say he did. As a matter of fact i consciously waited for an actual good report because of the stupid of the news and the confusion they like to report. That is why this was not here when this was unfolding. So please, do not pretend i have spread any rumors about an assault rifle.



But actually you are showing my exact point. Just having guns on site does not make things safer, as per what the NRA wants and says. Schools are going to have crappily trained guards or teachers who are more concerned with the goings on of the school than being prepared to shoot someone attacking. they may decide to keep the guns in an arms locker like has been reported here which was not used to fight off the attacker, and MAYhave been used by the attacker.

guns locked up in a safe that is only accessible by a handful of people is almost like not having them there at all. what good is a gun if you don't have access to it

 

[trfjr]

That is a nice bunch of rhetoric but you did not actually argue against any of my points. I understand you are one of the people that think this way, but this situation just showed you are wrong. An attacker can catch a flat footed guard and they are no good for a dedicated person who's goal is body count. Even in the situation the solution the NRA is supposed to work with, it clearly failed in a place that would be much more prepared than a school.

yes an attacker can catch one flat footed guard but only one because guess what guns make noise. now if that guard was the only one armed your screwed. if every military personal in that building was armed how far do you think the shooter would have gotten

 

[Artevelde]

These sorts of mass shootings prove nothing, except perhaps that the people who perpetrate them are deranged.
On the topic addressed in the opening post: I don't believe in turning everybody into a security guard. Teachers are supposed to be teachers (hard enough job as it is). Let's make sure there qualified to do that. Stopping and apprehending criminals is the task of law enforcement.

 

[tererun]

guns locked up in a safe that is only accessible by a handful of people is almost like not having them there at all. what good is a gun if you don't have access to it

I don't know, ask the NRA who suggested it. I completely agree with you on that one.

 

[APACHERAT]

That is a nice bunch of rhetoric but you did not actually argue against any of my points. I understand you are one of the people that think this way, but this situation just showed you are wrong. An attacker can catch a flat footed guard and they are no good for a dedicated person who's goal is body count. Even in the situation the solution the NRA is supposed to work with, it clearly failed in a place that would be much more prepared than a school.

Let me put it another way, that guard and all of those civilian DOD security / police shouldn't have been there in the first place. The gates should have been manned by U.S. Marines and there should have been U.S. Marines providing all of the perimeter and interior security on the base.

That's the way it use to be.

 

[tererun]

yes an attacker can catch one flat footed guard but only one because guess what guns make noise. now if that guard was the only one armed your screwed. if every military personal in that building was armed how far do you think the shooter would have gotten

It is more than just one. The shooters in these cases are going for body count. They are also for the most part working alone or with someone they know well and might be in communication with. That means that they have a much different way of attacking than their opponents. Their opponents will be making evaluations like running away, asking themselves if a target is an enemy, and they will even have to worry about being confused for the enemy by their allies. This puts a massive advantage on a attacker. this is why having guns present doesn't work well against stopping it.

 

[tererun]

Let me put it another way, that guard and all of those civilian DOD security / police shouldn't have been there in the first place. The gates should have been manned by U.S. Marines and there should have been U.S. Marines providing all of the perimeter and interior security on the base.

That's the way it use to be.

Ok, I am good with that explanation. Now let us apply that to the argument. So do you want the front gates of the schools of the US armed with marines and to have armed marines patrolling schools? I actually agree that solution would deter and actually prevent entrance to all but some really dedicated school shooters. That is the sort of level of guards that would make a difference. Of course, having that level of guards means a person who is dedicated to the assault will up their offense and perhaps that could be an escalation of arms which would make for a higher death count, but I am pretty sure that the marines would eat up most any untrained person who thought they were bad ass.

 

[jamesrage]

So finally it seems some real details come out about the shooting. I will get to the fake ones in a minute. The shooter came in with a shotgun and somewhere along the line picked up a couple of pistols. Now we hear from the NRA that teachers with guns and armed guards are the best way to prevent a school shooting. This Navy facility had armed guards roaming around. These guys are trained with their firearms and supposedly ready to use them. I would assume some of them might even be soldiers. It seems one of the way the shooter may have armed himself is by shooting the armed guards who are supposed to have been there to stop him. The other story is that this guy may have gotten more guns from a gun storage safe. The NRA suggests we have guns in school in a safe for access to the good guys if there is a armed assault on a school.

So this guy has demonstrated that even with a shotgun that is pump action and not a high capacity gun he was able to somehow acquire more guns and ammo off of the guards or from a safe or locker. This proves what i have said all along. A prepared killer is an overwhelming match for flatfooted guards, and that locked up guns are of no use unless the good guys happen to be able to get to them. Even trained armed guards whose sole purpose there was to respond to an attack were no match for dude with a shotgun who they outgunned and outnumbered surprising them. Even if he did not get his guns off of them, they fell.

Now this brings up the confusion in reporting and why that becomes relevant to this situation. Most of these situations are confusing. the facts are easier to get after things are over and a legitimate forensic investigation can determine how and what happened. During the moments where the fight is going on and for a time afterwards the situation is not known by anyone. The people involved do not know the details and neither do the authorities. What does that mean? What was one of the rumors about this? it was that there were potentially, and may still be, more than one person involved. You are a person and you have a gun in this situation where there is nothing but rumors, speculation, and fear for your life. You are more of a danger to the innocents who are running in fear than you are to the shooter. You may not even know who the shooter is. how are you supposed to determine another "good" guy with a gun from the guy shooting? It is not like they wear T-shirts with "I am the shooter" written on them.

So the NRA somehow expects that mildly trained teachers with guns are going to react better than cops and the friggen navy to a shooter that is often armed with much more than a shotgun. This is a perfect example as to why other methods are far more capable of saving lives than a bunch of flat footed undertrained teachers with guns, or even some armed guard from some security force who drew school as his assignment over being a mall cop. In the end a responding cop shot the guy in this case. Not one of the guards roaming the shipyard. It wasn't some armed person floating around. those were both present. He was not killed by some people who got to a gun locker and armed themselves. No, the cops got him. Thank you NRA for being 100 percent wrong.

I do not know anything about the Navy but in the army very few soldiers are armed. Soldiers are not running all over post carrying M16s and other weapons, and if they are then those weapons are unloaded and there is no live ammo around. This is how the Fort Hood shooter was able to shoot so many soldiers.

 

[tererun]

The FBI and ATF have both reported that he did not have an AR-15, so we can squash that rumor. QUOTE]

So who started that rumor anyways ?

if i were to guess a liberal news source jumping to some conclusions to fit the story it wants to tell. Still, it is what you can expect in minute by minute reporting of events like this. That sort of confusion that causes this becomes a danger in the actual situation when it involves armed poorly trained civilians with no organized plan. Put yourself in the situation. you are in the school. you have heard a bunch of gunfire. You have a gun and are now supposed to act to protect the kids. People are saying stuff like I think it as an ar-15, or there might be 3 of them. What does that do to your actions? They may not even be politically motivated, just scared assumptions. You can say all you want they should not do that, but when they get into that situation that will happen and you cannot stop it. That is just how normal people who are unused to combat behave, and the only way to minimize it would be to put them into combat which is not an option.

If i were there and was one of the guards I would have probably been hearing things like OMG he has an "insert assault rifle name here," and people would be telling me there were a bunch of them and things would be extremely confusing. The only thing that is going to sink in is that OMG this guy is just shooting whoever he sees. All I am seeing is people running around in most likelihood. Who do I shoot at? What do I do? One thing I know is that just having a gun makes me look like a shooter to anyone else with a gun. How do I tell some scared guy with a gun i am not the shooter before he shoots me?

This is what is called a cluster*insert expletive here*. this is what happens when you give a whole bunch of poorly trained, unprepared people guns and hopes that solves your problem. At best those people are walking reloads. At worst they are a danger to everyone around them. A manipulative asshole could even turn these armed dogoders on each other. I used to play paintball, so i know how easy it is to con some scared person into being your weapon when communication and identification sucks. It was so bad in one scenario game I hung out with the opponents so much that they actually believed i was on their side. they actually argued that I was part of the group before i wiped out their base group single handed and sent the responders to attack each other. This is because there is no aura or label to the bad guy in these situations. At least i had an armband on at the time. mass killers do not do that. This is why evacuation and safety needs to be the primary concerns when an event like this happens.

 

[tererun]

I do not know anything about the Navy but in the army very few soldiers are armed. Soldiers are not running all over post carrying M16s and other weapons, and if they are then those weapons are unloaded and there is no live ammo around. This is how the Fort Hood shooter was able to shoot so many soldiers.

Ok, that is just stupid. Not you, but that sort of policy. if you are going to have the guns and trust people then they need to be loaded. if that is the case someone has done something really wrong.

 

[douglas]

~OP~

How does this show a flaw in a plan that wasn't executed? It's definitely an apples to oranges comparison. If there had been actual security to check everyone going in, this probably wouldn't have happened.

In a school, at least any modern school I've seen, they chain the place up real tight during school hours. Typically they also have atleast one outer gate that is also chained. In a school, this guy wouldn't have made it into the building, let alone kill any guards/teachers, without causing alarm; the time it would take for this guy to actually become a threat would be around the same time it takes for the cops to get there.

 

[WillyPete]

So finally it seems some real details come out about the shooting. I will get to the fake ones in a minute. The shooter came in with a shotgun and somewhere along the line picked up a couple of pistols. Now we hear from the NRA that teachers with guns and armed guards are the best way to prevent a school shooting. This Navy facility had armed guards roaming around. These guys are trained with their firearms and supposedly ready to use them. I would assume some of them might even be soldiers. It seems one of the way the shooter may have armed himself is by shooting the armed guards who are supposed to have been there to stop him. The other story is that this guy may have gotten more guns from a gun storage safe. The NRA suggests we have guns in school in a safe for access to the good guys if there is a armed assault on a school.

So this guy has demonstrated that even with a shotgun that is pump action and not a high capacity gun he was able to somehow acquire more guns and ammo off of the guards or from a safe or locker. This proves what i have said all along. A prepared killer is an overwhelming match for flatfooted guards, and that locked up guns are of no use unless the good guys happen to be able to get to them. Even trained armed guards whose sole purpose there was to respond to an attack were no match for dude with a shotgun who they outgunned and outnumbered surprising them. Even if he did not get his guns off of them, they fell.

Now this brings up the confusion in reporting and why that becomes relevant to this situation. Most of these situations are confusing. the facts are easier to get after things are over and a legitimate forensic investigation can determine how and what happened. During the moments where the fight is going on and for a time afterwards the situation is not known by anyone. The people involved do not know the details and neither do the authorities. What does that mean? What was one of the rumors about this? it was that there were potentially, and may still be, more than one person involved. You are a person and you have a gun in this situation where there is nothing but rumors, speculation, and fear for your life. You are more of a danger to the innocents who are running in fear than you are to the shooter. You may not even know who the shooter is. how are you supposed to determine another "good" guy with a gun from the guy shooting? It is not like they wear T-shirts with "I am the shooter" written on them.

So the NRA somehow expects that mildly trained teachers with guns are going to react better than cops and the friggen navy to a shooter that is often armed with much more than a shotgun. This is a perfect example as to why other methods are far more capable of saving lives than a bunch of flat footed undertrained teachers with guns, or even some armed guard from some security force who drew school as his assignment over being a mall cop. In the end a responding cop shot the guy in this case. Not one of the guards roaming the shipyard. It wasn't some armed person floating around. those were both present. He was not killed by some people who got to a gun locker and armed themselves. No, the cops got him. Thank you NRA for being 100 percent wrong.

Presumably you're ok with the police who shot the guy having firearms? Where do you draw the line?

What policy changes would you have made prior to this incident that would have prevented it?

Unless it's covered in you policy changes, what "other methods" are you referring to?

 

[tererun]

Presumably you're ok with the police who shot the guy having firearms? Where do you draw the line?

Can you explain to me why I should be bothered with the police shooting the person who was shooting others? Call me stupid, but i missed that logic.

What policy changes would you have made prior to this incident that would have prevented it?

A policy that would have banned a person who is hearing voices in his head and has had two shooting incidents from owning a gun. I am pretty sure that would be well accepted if there was a poll. I am so confident in the response that i think you should do your own experiment yourself. go up and ask people around you if they think a guy that is hearing voices in his head should be allowed to own a gun. I am serious, pose that question to people because that is what we just let happen. maybe you are different, but that question seems like a no brainer to me, and i have asked arouhnd to see if people think that someone who hears voices should have a gun.

Unless it's covered in you policy changes, what "other methods" are you referring to?

methods that logically effect death count and work towards mitigating what is obviously a part of the human condition. I also would not be opposed to projects focused on prevention. I would have to hear the exact proposal to make a choice, but in light of the topic putting armed guards in schools or a locker with guns in a school is not a solution.

 

[MaggieD]

So finally it seems some real details come out about the shooting. I will get to the fake ones in a minute. The shooter came in with a shotgun and somewhere along the line picked up a couple of pistols. Now we hear from the NRA that teachers with guns and armed guards are the best way to prevent a school shooting. This Navy facility had armed guards roaming around. These guys are trained with their firearms and supposedly ready to use them. I would assume some of them might even be soldiers. It seems one of the way the shooter may have armed himself is by shooting the armed guards who are supposed to have been there to stop him. The other story is that this guy may have gotten more guns from a gun storage safe. The NRA suggests we have guns in school in a safe for access to the good guys if there is a armed assault on a school.

So this guy has demonstrated that even with a shotgun that is pump action and not a high capacity gun he was able to somehow acquire more guns and ammo off of the guards or from a safe or locker. This proves what i have said all along. A prepared killer is an overwhelming match for flatfooted guards, and that locked up guns are of no use unless the good guys happen to be able to get to them. Even trained armed guards whose sole purpose there was to respond to an attack were no match for dude with a shotgun who they outgunned and outnumbered surprising them. Even if he did not get his guns off of them, they fell.

Now this brings up the confusion in reporting and why that becomes relevant to this situation. Most of these situations are confusing. the facts are easier to get after things are over and a legitimate forensic investigation can determine how and what happened. During the moments where the fight is going on and for a time afterwards the situation is not known by anyone. The people involved do not know the details and neither do the authorities. What does that mean? What was one of the rumors about this? it was that there were potentially, and may still be, more than one person involved. You are a person and you have a gun in this situation where there is nothing but rumors, speculation, and fear for your life. You are more of a danger to the innocents who are running in fear than you are to the shooter. You may not even know who the shooter is. how are you supposed to determine another "good" guy with a gun from the guy shooting? It is not like they wear T-shirts with "I am the shooter" written on them.

So the NRA somehow expects that mildly trained teachers with guns are going to react better than cops and the friggen navy to a shooter that is often armed with much more than a shotgun. This is a perfect example as to why other methods are far more capable of saving lives than a bunch of flat footed undertrained teachers with guns, or even some armed guard from some security force who drew school as his assignment over being a mall cop. In the end a responding cop shot the guy in this case. Not one of the guards roaming the shipyard. It wasn't some armed person floating around. those were both present. He was not killed by some people who got to a gun locker and armed themselves. No, the cops got him. Thank you NRA for being 100 percent wrong.

Remember the guy standing in the alleyway talking with another employee who got shot in the head right in front of the guy he was talking to? Had he been a trained firearm owner - had he been armed - he probably would be alive today and the shooter would have been dropped right then and there.

Shooting unarmed people is like shooting fish in a barrel. If a piece of property is going to supersede state gun laws and be designated as a no-gun zone, then the owners should be absolutely liable for bad guys with guns who get in.

How many of these mass shootings take place in gun-free zones? What do they all have in common, if anything? I think that's a question that deserves an answer, so here's what I found:

• Since 2009, there has been an average of one mass shooting a month.
• In 2010, there were 8,775 people murdered with handguns. Less than 1% of those victims were killed in mass shootings.**
• Assault weapons are used in a minority of mass shootings, yet their use guarantees more fatalities.
• In just four of the 43 shootings were mental health issues raised about the shooter.
• Domestic violence played a part in 40% of the mass shootings.
• At least 25% of the shooters were prohibited from owning guns.
• About one-third of the shootings took place in gun-free zones.

**Statistically insignificant.

So. When one wants to discuss the causes of mass shootings and ways to prevent them? These statistics are really all that matter.

Study: The U.S. has had one mass shooting per month since 2009

 

[TurtleDude]

Remember the guy standing in the alleyway talking with another employee who got shot in the head right in front of the guy he was talking to? Had he been a trained firearm owner - had he been armed - he probably would be alive today and the shooter would have been dropped right then and there.

Shooting unarmed people is like shooting fish in a barrel. If a piece of property is going to supersede state gun laws and be designated as a no-gun zone, then the owners should be absolutely liable for bad guys with guns who get in.

How many of these mass shootings take place in gun-free zones? What do they all have in common, if anything? I think that's a question that deserves an answer, so here's what I found:

• Since 2009, there has been an average of one mass shooting a month.
• In 2010, there were 8,775 people murdered with handguns. Less than 1% of those victims were killed in mass shootings.**
• Assault weapons are used in a minority of mass shootings, yet their use guarantees more fatalities.
• In just four of the 43 shootings were mental health issues raised about the shooter.
• Domestic violence played a part in 40% of the mass shootings.
• At least 25% of the shooters were prohibited from owning guns.
• About one-third of the shootings took place in gun-free zones.

**Statistically insignificant.

So. When one wants to discuss the causes of mass shootings and ways to prevent them? These statistics are really all that matter.

Study: The U.S. has had one mass shooting per month since 2009

almost every major mass shooting was in a gun free zone-Newtown-GFZ, Aurora Colorado-GFZ, the Naval Shipyard GFZ, Columbine-GFZ, the Amish School House GFZ, Luby's Texas-GFZ, teh McDonald's massacre (25 or so years ago) GFZ

 

[MaggieD]

almost every major mass shooting was in a gun free zone-Newtown-GFZ, Aurora Colorado-GFZ, the Naval Shipyard GFZ, Columbine-GFZ, the Amish School House GFZ, Luby's Texas-GFZ, teh McDonald's massacre (25 or so years ago) GFZ

If the Aurora theater had not been a gun-free zone, who could argue that he wouldn't have been killed early on? Or at least that he'd have been so busy trying to avoid being shot that he'd have killed many less people? Changing a state's gun laws by making plots of ground gun-free zones doesn't save lives. It costs them, in my opinion. And if businesses and state/governmental institutions are going to designate gun-free zones, they should be completely responsible for the violence that can't be prevented because of that decision...an obligation (or at least conscientious effort) to prevent the bad guys for getting in with guns.

 

[WillyPete]

Can you explain to me why I should be bothered with the police shooting the person who was shooting others? Call me stupid, but i missed that logic.

I don't know you well enough to call you stupid, but you do seem quite defensive. It seems clear you think gun restrictions are called for, and we agree that police should have firearms, so where is the line? Who is the first person who should NOT be allowed to have a firearm? Perhaps anther way to ask is, what is the least serious "violation" that should ban a person from owning firearms?

A policy that would have banned a person who is hearing voices in his head and has had two shooting incidents from owning a gun. I am pretty sure that would be well accepted if there was a poll. I am so confident in the response that i think you should do your own experiment yourself. go up and ask people around you if they think a guy that is hearing voices in his head should be allowed to own a gun. I am serious, pose that question to people because that is what we just let happen. maybe you are different, but that question seems like a no brainer to me, and i have asked arouhnd to see if people think that someone who hears voices should have a gun.

What you're describing is a new requirement to report people who are "hearing voices" to authorities, so they can ban them. Who shall this be required of? Teachers, police, military authorities? Should there be compulsory psyche screening to purchase a firearm, or perhaps a more general screening that is compelled on everyone? Both of those ideas have Constitutional hurdles to clear.

methods that logically effect death count and work towards mitigating what is obviously a part of the human condition. I also would not be opposed to projects focused on prevention. I would have to hear the exact proposal to make a choice, but in light of the topic putting armed guards in schools or a locker with guns in a school is not a solution.

We all want a policy that will work to reduce these killings. Apart from the psyche screening angle above, do you have anything specific in mind?