Reasons people shoot other people in May 2015 [W:146,511]

[Black Dog]

Right. And the 'stats' have morphed into the 'fact' that most people shot or shooting people are felons who are not allowed to own guns.

It has not "morphed" into anything. You were and are wrong. Now you are playing some silly intellectual dishonesty game to save face because again you have no argument.

That seems to be too ignorant for words, but you guys know so much more about guns, I'll just defer to you.

The only thing ignorant here is your post. And yes you should "defer" to those who know better than yourself.

 

[Black Dog]

How has the state done that for you given your NCIC does not generally give out such information to private individuals ?

How many convicted felons are police officers and licenced security officers in the state of Florida? I will give you a hint... It's less than the number 1.

Lets say its a private sale between two individuals . What then ?

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

Being a criminal is clearly little obstacle to acquiring a gun in most states

Then it's legal. Then again I am not scared of someone owning a gun.

 

[flogger]

How many convicted felons are police officers and licenced security officers in the state of Florida? I will give you a hint... It's less than the number 1.

How many people would only sell their guns to those sub groups ?

Then it's legal. Then again I am not scared of someone owning a gun.

Even if the person buying the gun was actually a criminal and the seller didn't know ?

 

[Black Dog]

How many people would only sell their guns to those sub groups ?

Does not matter, you asked How has the state done that for you given your NCIC does not generally give out such information to private individuals ?

Even if the person buying the gun was actually a criminal and the seller didn't know ?

No it's not legal in that case but unenforceable.

 

[flogger]

No it's not legal in that case but unenforceable.

In that case heres an idea. Register then monitor firearms and stop selling criminals guns !

I'm sure it would do wonders for your gun crime

 

[Black Dog]

In that case heres an idea. Register then monitor firearms and stop selling criminals guns !

I'm sure it would do wonders for your gun crime

They would just get them other ways. Just like drugs and all other illegal actions. Only a fool would think cutting off one avenue will somehow hinder those who break the law.

Just create more useless laws for them to ignore!

Just like any other right you must accept the good with the bad. Something a lot of Americans are willing to do. Freedom is worth the added risk.

 

[flogger]

They would just get them other ways. Just like drugs and all other illegal actions. Only a fool would think cutting off one avenue will somehow hinder those who break the law.

Well given its by far the main avenue its bound to make a sizeable difference

Just create more useless laws for them to ignore!

Make selling guns second hand illegal by registering and monitoring them

Just like any other right you must accept the good with the bad.

So if you are prepared to countenance this sort of thing happening you can hardly complain about criminals having guns. You are content let them have them as long as your guns are safe ?

Correct ?

 

[Threegoofs]

In that case heres an idea. Register then monitor firearms and stop selling criminals guns !

I'm sure it would do wonders for your gun crime

You have to understand..... for a small minority of Americans the freedom to shoot someone > the freedom to get shot by someone.

Most of us dont think like that, and a large chunk of us dont really care that much - I live in a very very safe community where some people own firearms as a hobby and I have little concern for gun violence personally. But a very vocal minority who are either hobbyists (yeah...guns are their toys) or paranoiacs (gotta carry a gun everywhere because you could get shot!) go nuts if anyone suggests that someone might make it harder for them to get a gun. This leads to situations where multiple kids get shot and the national outrage lasts for a week, but then people go back to caring about Bruce...errr.... Caitlin Jenner.

 

[Black Dog]

Well given its by far the main avenue its bound to make a sizeable difference

Yea just like the drug war and all the laws on drugs have.... oh wait.

Make selling guns second hand illegal by registering and monitoring them

No. The people have spoken. We are not willing to sacrifice freedom for a little security. This is part of the reason England lost the war.

So if you are prepared to countenance this sort of thing happening you can hardly complain about criminals having guns. You are content let them have them as long as your guns are safe ?

Correct ?

Please point out where I have complained about it? I have complained about stupid people who want to curtail crime, by going after law abiding citizens when it has been shown countless times it has no affect on those who break the law.

So you are still wrong.

 

[Black Dog]

You have to understand..... for a small minority of Americans the freedom to shoot someone > the freedom to get shot by someone.

Most of us dont think like that, and a large chunk of us dont really care that much - I live in a very very safe community where some people own firearms as a hobby and I have little concern for gun violence personally. But a very vocal minority who are either hobbyists (yeah...guns are their toys) or paranoiacs (gotta carry a gun everywhere because you could get shot!) go nuts if anyone suggests that someone might make it harder for them to get a gun. This leads to situations where multiple kids get shot and the national outrage lasts for a week, but then people go back to caring about Bruce...errr.... Caitlin Jenner.

Notice how he thinks he knows everything owned by everyone in his entire community? And why they own what they do?

He must have ESP! I rest my case.

Small minority my ass. This is why your arguments get blasted, they are uninformed and utterly moronic.

 

[flogger]

Yea just like the drug war and all the laws on drugs have.... oh wait.

Its certainly worked elsewhere

No. The people have spoken. We are not willing to sacrifice freedom for a little security. This is part of the reason England lost the war.

How is the registering and monitoring of your firearms compromising your freedom in any way ? Why are you so against prudent measures that would make legally purchased firearms far less likely to get into the wrong hands ? I bet many of those 'people' you speak of would be very glad of measures to address that

Please point out where I have complained about it? I have complained about stupid people who want to curtail crime, by going after law abiding citizens when it has been shown countless times it has no affect on those who break the law.

So you have no problem with the ability of criminals to acquire their firearms so easily then ?

So you are still wrong.

Not at all . In fact your responses confirm that I am indeed correct

 

[Black Dog]

Its certainly worked elsewhere

Much MUCH smaller populations who had no real vested interest in those weapons to begin with. They also had no Constitution guaranteeing this right.

US 300 million...
England 53 million
Australia 23 million

And yet they still have gun crime. Much less mind you, but gun crime just the same. Only difference is they have no means of self defence.

How is the registering and monitoring of your firearms compromising your freedom in any way ? Why are you so against prudent measures that would make legally purchased firearms far less likely to get into the wrong hands ? I bet many of those 'people' you speak of would be very glad of measures to address that

The exact same measures don't keep them out of their hands NOW. If they do straw purchases now, why would universal background checks stop this all of a sudden? You make no sense at all.

As for me... It's my property and the government does not need to know anything I have outside of that information I am willing to surrender. I am not willing to surrender information on my firearms whether I have them or not as long as I keep and use them in compliance with the law.

So you have no problem with the ability of criminals to acquire their firearms so easily then ?

I have a problem with people who think they have a solution that will affect them in no way, affect crime in no way and do nothing but make it harder for law abiding citizens. THat's what I have a problem with.

Not at all . In fact your responses confirm that I am indeed correct

You don't even realize how ignorant of reality your answer was let alone being correct.

 

[jamesrage]

Yes it is.

If you are a reasonable person who is not going to shoot other people you don't need a gun.

If you carry a gun and don't live a life of wildness where people are shooting at you you are a nut.

I don't want nuts having guns. I am willing to lose the freedom to have a death tool in order to stop nuts having death tools.

That is just flawed and full of nonsense.Reasonable people carry guns.I do not know if you know this but cops can not fit into your pockets. Nor can you have a cop follow you everywhere just so criminals do not harm you. Nor can you have a cop stationed outside your home 24/7 so that criminals do not harm you. Plus the right to keep and bear arms is not about stopping crime it is about keeping a tyrannical government at bay and being able to repel invaders should our country get invaded.

 

[flogger]

Much MUCH smaller populations who had no real vested interest in those weapons to begin with. They also had no Constitution guaranteeing this right.

US 300 million...
England 53 million
Australia 23 million

And yet they still have gun crime. Much less mind you, but gun crime just the same. Only difference is they have no means of self defence.

The problem with the US mindset is lethal response is your first and only response. Not all crime justifies this level of disproportionate force. We are also far less likely to ever face a gun. Being shot is not something many here need to dwell on given how rare an occurrence it is.

The exact same measures don't keep them out of their hands NOW. If they do straw purchases now, why would universal background checks stop this all of a sudden? You make no sense at all.

Where are the background checks made in any second hand transaction ?

As for me... It's my property and the government does not need to know anything I have outside of that information I am willing to surrender. I am not willing to surrender information on my firearms whether I have them or not as long as I keep and use them in compliance with the law.

And what if some other person then unwittingly sells his guns to a criminal ? They are not monitored or registered and so subsequently vanish into the criminal underworld

I have a problem with people who think they have a solution that will affect them in no way, affect crime in no way and do nothing but make it harder for law abiding citizens. THat's what I have a problem with.

Why would the registering and monitoring of guns make it harder for law abiding citizens ? What have they to fear ?

 

[Black Dog]

The problem with the US mindset is lethal response is your first and only response. Not all crime justifies this level of disproportionate force. We are also far less likely to ever face a gun. Being shot is not something many here need to dwell on.

That is not the "US mindset." The US mindset is just in case. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Do you honestly think we dwell on being shot? Seriously?

Where are the background checks made in any second hand transaction ?

They are not. Now explain how this would stop straw purchases?

And what if some other person then unwittingly sells his guns to a criminal ? They are not monitored or registered and so subsequently vanish into the criminal underworld

Thats true. Or what if an innocent person bought it for her boyfriend! Oh well I guess circumventing the system is not that hard after all.

Why would the registering and monitoring of guns make it harder for law abiding citizens ? What have they to fear ?

The government.

Nice strawman that had nothing at all to do with my reply to you. With that I am done as I have come to the conclusion debate with you on this is a waste of time. Your posts are turning into desperate fallacy arguments.

 

[flogger]

That is not the "US mindset." The US mindset is just in case. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Do you honestly think we dwell on being shot? Seriously?

If some perp was going to mug you who do you think would have their gun out first, you or him ? The odds are he would be more likely to then steal yours than for you to ever get the chance to use it without being shot in the process

They are not. Now explain how this would stop straw purchases?

Every second hand unchecked purchase by a criminal becomes a de facto straw purchase be that by accident or design

Thats true. Or what if an innocent person bought it for her boyfriend! Oh well I guess circumventing the system is not that hard after all.

Thats right it isn't especially if her boyfriend was a criminal

The government.

But the government registers things like your driver licence so whats the difference between that and registering a gun ?

Nice strawman that had nothing at all to do with my reply to you. With that I am done as I have come to the conclusion debate with you on this is a waste of time. Your posts are turning into desperate fallacy arguments.

No . Its simply because I won the argument

 

[VanceMack]

The problem with the US mindset is lethal response is your first and only response. Not all crime justifies this level of disproportionate force. We are also far less likely to ever face a gun. Being shot is not something many here need to dwell on given how rare an occurrence it is.


Where are the background checks made in any second hand transaction ?


And what if some other person then unwittingly sells his guns to a criminal ? They are not monitored or registered and so subsequently vanish into the criminal underworld



Why would the registering and monitoring of guns make it harder for law abiding citizens ? What have they to fear ?

Rapes increased in the UK by 29% in one year. Knifepoint rapes increased by 48% in that same year. The UK response...take it like a man and dont harm the attacker. Then buy a 'rape alarm'.

Yeah...you keep digging your 'higher ground'...

 

[Black Dog]

More nonsense



No . Its simply because I won the argument

Well as long as you feel good about it. :lamo

 

[flogger]

Rapes increased in the UK by 29% in one year. Knifepoint rapes increased by 48% in that same year. The UK response...take it like a man and dont harm the attacker. Then buy a 'rape alarm'.

Yeah...you keep digging your 'higher ground'...

Such crimes can also fall by such rates here year on year too. Overall our crime rates are currently the lowest since records began .......despite our lack of guns

 

[Black Dog]

Such crimes can also fall by such rates here year on year too. Overall our crime rates are currently the lowest since records began .......despite our lack of guns

ONS crime survey shows decline continues long-term downward trend, but separate police figures reveal 32% increase in recorded rapes - Crime rate in England and Wales falls 7% to lowest level since 1981 | UK news | The Guardian

Great job protecting your women.

In the US however.

FBI: Violent crime drops, reaches 1970s level - http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-violent-crime-1970s-level-20141110-story.html

 

[Winchester]

I'm posting this because its just a prime example of the horrible presentation of fact the gun grabbers present to the public.

I mean.. May might have been an aberration.

Things like this should be kept quiet and out of site so no one has to be uncomfortable about being able to trumpet their rights for guns to be freely available.

This organization should be ashamed of itself.

View attachment 67185362

Actually the Clamato excuse is factual, so I assume the rest of the excuses are as well. While I don't support "gun grabber" groups, I have no real issue with them posting this list.

 

[flogger]

ONS crime survey shows decline continues long-term downward trend, but separate police figures reveal 32% increase in recorded rapes - Crime rate in England and Wales falls 7% to lowest level since 1981 | UK news | The Guardian

Great job protecting your women.

In the US however.

FBI: Violent crime drops, reaches 1970s level - Violent numbers down, continuing a decades-long downturn: FBI - Chicago Tribune

Given that the UK has recently changed their methodology for tabulating such crimes and the FBI crime figures often fail to include half the states in the US this is hardly a valid comparison. Rape could just as easily fall back again next year as such figures tend to fluctuate wildly

Perhaps a more telling statistic reflecting our falling crime is the big manpower reduction in numbers officers required to patrol our streets

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8651698/34000-police-jobs-to-be-axed.html

This would not be happening were crime increasing

And it has nothing to do with why people shoot one another in the US as per the OP

 

[Black Dog]

Given that the UK has recently changed their methodology for tabulating such crimes and the FBI crime figures often fail to include half the states in the US this is hardly a valid comparison.

Perhaps a more telling statistic reflecting our falling crime is the big manpower reduction in numbers officers required to patrol our streets

34,000 police jobs to be axed - Telegraph

This would not be happening were crime increasing

And it has nothing to do with why people shoot one another in the US as per the OP

I did not say anything about crime increasing. Just another fluff fallacy argument that completely ignored what I said.

Shows absolutely nothing. Overall crime in the US is going down as well as in the UK ops! Except for rape which has gone up 32% in the UK.

End of story.

 

[flogger]

I did not say anything about crime increasing. Just another fluff fallacy argument that completely ignored what I said.

Shows absolutely nothing. Overall crime in the US is going down as well as in the UK ops! Except for rape which has gone up 32% in the UK.

End of story.

Well apart from us still being around 40 times less likely to be shot and 5 times less likely to be murdered than you because of sane gun legislation

 

[Black Dog]

Well apart from us still being around 40 times less likely to be shot and 5 times less likely to be murdered than you

Why don't you tell your defenseless mothers, daughters and wifes that. It might make em feel better.

Thanks for playing.