Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

No, it really hasn't.

The correct phrase is: "Minimum wages are far below their highs, adjusted for inflation, in the 1960s and 70s."

Yes, it really has. It's not at it's highs. It's not at it's lows. It's about where it should be averaging everything out. We are due for a correction on it but to insinuate or even claim outright that there is any enormous disparity is to grossly exaggerate the reality of it.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Actually, it's a very accurate picture because what you're measuring is buying power. Something that cost 1.00 in 1960 will cost $7.90 today. So if you earned 1.00 an hour in 1960 for minimum wage, the value of that today would be $7.90 and $7.90 would be the inflation adjusted figure that would equate to same/same between 1960 and 2013. Compounding doesn't apply to this.

Well, how about figuring what the SS/Medicare taxes have increased since 1960? And Federal income tax rates? (Probably nothing on the rates, but surely on SS and Medicare and Part D.) I'll look. Okay, here:

If one earned minimum wage in 1960, ALL payroll taxes were a whopping $70.00 a year...that's Federal income tax and Social Security. How the tax burden has changed since 1960 - politics - Capitol Hill | NBC News -- or a net to the worker for the year of $2,010.

If one earns minimum wage today, one pays $658 in income tax Breaking Down the Minimum Wage – this ain't livin' and SS/Medicare withholding is $1153. So the net is $13,269.

Using the inflation calculator on $2,010 net in 1960 means that today's worker, in order not to lose buying power, should be netting $15,881.00 -- vs $13,269. And, of course, this doesn't take into account how all the other taxes in our lives have increased.

That's a drop of 17% in buying power -- again, without taking into account how other taxes in the marketplace have increased. So, just to keep it simple, to take the increase in payroll taxes into account, Federal minimum wage should be at least $8.36 an hour.

It's easy to forget payroll taxes. They've shot up tremendously.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Well, how about figuring what the SS/Medicare taxes have increased since 1960? And Federal income tax rates? (Probably nothing on the rates, but surely on SS and Medicare and Part D.) I'll look. Okay, here:

If one earned minimum wage in 1960, ALL payroll taxes were a whopping $70.00 a year...that's Federal income tax and Social Security. How the tax burden has changed since 1960 - politics - Capitol Hill | NBC News -- or a net to the worker for the year of $2,010.

If one earns minimum wage today, one pays $658 in income tax Breaking Down the Minimum Wage – this ain't livin' and SS/Medicare withholding is $1153. So the net is $13,269.

Using the inflation calculator on $2,010 net in 1960 means that today's worker, in order not to lose buying power, should be netting $15,881.00 -- vs $13,269. And, of course, this doesn't take into account how all the other taxes in our lives have increased.

That's a drop of 17% in buying power -- again, without taking into account how other taxes in the marketplace have increased. So, just to keep it simple, to take the increase in payroll taxes into account, Federal minimum wage should be at least $8.36 an hour.

It's easy to forget payroll taxes. They've shot up tremendously.

That's the price of our entitlement system with social security and medicare/medicaid. It really doesn't have any bearing on minimum wage. We're all paying a boatload more in payroll taxes, which is one of the reasons why we should be very, very upset about fraud in the entitlement programs paid for by those payroll taxes.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

That's the price of our entitlement system with social security and medicare/medicaid. It really doesn't have any bearing on minimum wage. We're all paying a boatload more in payroll taxes, which is one of the reasons why we should be very, very upset about fraud in the entitlement programs paid for by those payroll taxes.

Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming that those calculations don't have any bearing on minimum wage. Minimum wage is designed to be a floor for subsistence. Your claim is outrageous. (No offense.)

 

[Fenton]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

If enough people realized that they could simply pay the Fine, and buy insurance when the get ill, it would accomplish two things.

It would kill this ridiculous healthcare law, and it would burn the Democrats.....big time

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

I think scrapping it in it's entirety is the only solution. Sorry. I think we're going to end up with a single-payer system of socialized medicine like Canada and Europe and I think it will end up saving us a lot of money and aggravation if we just go ahead and do it. It should be lean and mean, but now we're back to the real problem with our government. Nothing is lean and mean.

I don't think such a system would be fair for everyone. It's certainly socialist in nature, but since we're hell bent to go with socialism and no attempt to stave it off is working, we might as well go with the most reasonable solution. And it's going to happen eventually, anyway. It's just that we're taking the most expensive and most painful route to get there.

Tehchnological advances are responsible for around 50% of the increase in healthcare costs since the 80's from a study I read and that makes sense. If you want to stop the costs from spiraling upward, quit rewarding the private sector for disovering new radically expensive treatments and drugs that insurance and government programs will pay for. As long as we're willing to throw unlimited resources toward healthcare, costs will continue to go up. Maybe if the government had to pay for everything, there would be a line drawn in the sand somewhere. Rationed healthcare is the only affordable healthcare.

All health care in any nation is rationed in one way or another. There is no such thing as unlimited health care, nor is there free health care.

However, France, one of those terrible socialistic European nations, has a top rated health care system that costs less than half as much as the US system did before Obmacare.

 

[Wiseone]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Employer Mandate taken out.
Individual Mandate taken out.

No, you can still keep measures that companies shouldn't deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions. You can keep that people under 26 can be on parents insurance coverage plans. It doesn't gut everything. Just the insanely BAD parts.

Well I can tell you don't really understand anything, the mandates are what pays for the coverage of the already sick. If you don't allow insurance companies to deny based on pre-existing conditions than you'll have a flood of those people into the system pulling more money out than what goes in, and the young and healthy will not purchase since they have no reason to since they are 1) young and healthy and 2) don't have to worry about thinking ahead because they just sign up whenever they get sick.

Doing what you say and stripping the funding would collapse the entire health insurance industry in no time at all.

Basically you want your cake but don't want to pay for it, which everything else aside is a pretty selfish attitude.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Well I can tell you don't really understand anything, the mandates are what pays for the coverage of the already sick. If you don't allow insurance companies to deny based on pre-existing conditions than you'll have a flood of those people into the system pulling more money out than what goes in, and the young and healthy will not purchase since they have no reason to since they are 1) young and healthy and 2) don't have to worry about thinking ahead because they just sign up whenever they get sick.

Doing what you say and stripping the funding would collapse the entire health insurance industry in no time at all.

Basically you want your cake but don't want to pay for it, which everything else aside is a pretty selfish attitude.

Well then we should go with my actual position and just throw out Obamacare altogether.

 

[Wiseone]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Well then we should go with my actual position and just throw out Obamacare altogether.

Fine but you really showed some ignorance in that post, basically said the change you'd make would be collapsing the entire health insurance industry. I don't think you really understand this issue at all

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming that those calculations don't have any bearing on minimum wage. Minimum wage is designed to be a floor for subsistence. Your claim is outrageous. (No offense.)

No one gets a raise because the government raises taxes. That's why raising taxes is a bad thing. It eats into the value of your labor. It is the percentage of your work that the government takes to run it's affairs. The fact that the percentage of your work the government seized goes up does not mean that the value of you work must automatically be raised and, in fact, you try to think back to the last time you got a raise because taxes went up and see if you can recall one single instance of that ever happening. No one gets raises just because taxes go up. Not you. Not me. Not minimum wage.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Fine but you really showed some ignorance in that post, basically said the change you'd make would be collapsing the entire health insurance industry. I don't think you really understand this issue at all

I understand the issue. The bill as a whole is bad.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

No one gets a raise because the government raises taxes. That's why raising taxes is a bad thing. It eats into the value of your labor. It is the percentage of your work that the government takes to run it's affairs. The fact that the percentage of your work the government seized goes up does not mean that the value of you work must automatically be raised and, in fact, you try to think back to the last time you got a raise because taxes went up and see if you can recall one single instance of that ever happening. No one gets raises just because taxes go up. Not you. Not me. Not minimum wage.

The fact that a loaf of bread goes up in price could fit in your same mold. No. Minimum wage is meant to be a subsistence floor. Actually, it points out (to me) a flaw in the inflation calculator. It is extremely misleading. It takes into account what's happened to the cost of living. A loaf of bread - increased taxes. Both are as equally responsible for inflation.

I think you are dead wrong.

 

[Fenton]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

All health care in any
nation is rationed in one way or another. There is no such thing as unlimited health care, nor is there free health care.

However, France, one of those terrible socialistic European nations, has a top rated health care system that costs less than half as much as the US system did before Obmacare.

Top rated based on who's subjective opinion ?

It would seem socialist healthcares quality improves on a ppst by post basis around here.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

All health care in any nation is rationed in one way or another. There is no such thing as unlimited health care, nor is there free health care.

However, France, one of those terrible socialistic European nations, has a top rated health care system that costs less than half as much as the US system did before Obmacare.

In our system, you can buy virtually unlimited healthcare if you can afford virtually unlimited healthcare. If you're the one paying for your own healthcare, no rationing is necessary. If, however, YOU are not the one paying for it, then rationing is absolutely necessary. It's just a fact of life and not a bad thing.

 

[Ray410]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Seriously, I don't think there is anything that could be changed that would make it work, it's just too expensive for those expected to support it.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

In our system, you can buy virtually unlimited healthcare if you can afford virtually unlimited healthcare. If you're the one paying for your own healthcare, no rationing is necessary. If, however, YOU are not the one paying for it, then rationing is absolutely necessary. It's just a fact of life and not a bad thing.

I agree with you here. (Not there. Ha!) Healthcare is always going to be rationed. Saner minds HAVE to prevail or we could be keeping vegetables alive on machines until they dry up and blow away. Standards of care will have to be carefully examined if we're to get a handle on healthcare in this country.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

In our system, you can buy virtually unlimited healthcare if you can afford virtually unlimited healthcare. If you're the one paying for your own healthcare, no rationing is necessary. If, however, YOU are not the one paying for it, then rationing is absolutely necessary. It's just a fact of life and not a bad thing.

Exactly. We can't all be Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. The rest of us have to ration health care, housing, food, travel, everything, in one way or another.

 

[Wiseone]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

I understand the issue. The bill as a whole is bad.

You obviously have no idea how it works if you think what you suggested would be an improvement.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

You obviously have no idea how it works if you think what you suggested would be an improvement.

Did I say it would be an improvement? No, I didn't. I want the whole law gone, but the OP didn't allow for that.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

The fact that a loaf of bread goes up in price could fit in your same mold. No. Minimum wage is meant to be a subsistence floor. Actually, it points out (to me) a flaw in the inflation calculator. It is extremely misleading. It takes into account what's happened to the cost of living. A loaf of bread - increased taxes. Both are as equally responsible for inflation.

I think you are dead wrong.

The fact that a loaf of bread goes up in price is exactly what inflation and inflation calculation is all about. But it's not one bit misleading. The fact that taxes have gone up for everyone just means that we all have to get by on less. After-tax income may have gone down for everyone, but that's not due to minimum wage not keeping up with inflation. That's due to us taxing and spending more for entitlement programs.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

I agree with you here. (Not there. Ha!) Healthcare is always going to be rationed. Saner minds HAVE to prevail or we could be keeping vegetables alive on machines until they dry up and blow away. Standards of care will have to be carefully examined if we're to get a handle on healthcare in this country.

And make no mistake.... taxes will increase MORE because of this. And we're not going to get pay adjustments to even the score. It doesn't work that way.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Can we PLEASE make the assumption that Obamacare isn't "going away" for the purposes of this thread?

Here's what I'd like to see changed right away:

Enact a meaningful penalty for those who don't sign up for healthcare insurance. The penalty in place right now is meaningLESS.
Lower the definition of full-time (for the purpose of Obamacare coverage) from its current 30 hours to 20 hours a week. It is virtually impossible for companies to staff positions at 19 hours a week. This would avoid what's happening now -- employers cutting hours to 29. (That's doable from a staffing standpoint. Nineteen hours a week is not.)

What would you like to see changed? For God's sake!!!! Don't say "Scrap the whole thing," as that is NEVER going to happen.

I don't know all the details related to Obamacare and the various regulation/requirements of businesses and individuals, but I do know two things:

1. Business in America does not look upon the ACA as a benefit to the way they do or wish to conduct business and they see that circumventing the provisions through adjustments to their staffing levels is preferable to providing healthcare insurance to their employees. Even here in Canada, where we have universal health care coverage, both large and small businesses use the provision of supplemental health insurance coverage as part of their employee benefits packages and they do it willingly and to be competitive. It's why the auto industry in Canada was thriving while our wages were higher - the Big Three noted our educated work force and our healthcare coverage as two main reasons for staying engaged here. Ask yourself why businesses aren't welcoming and embracing the provisions of ACA.

2. No piece of legislation will last and be supported if it requires the complete change and upheaval in the business and work environment as you contemplate in your "fixes" above. Why is it necessary to disrupt the standard work week and the definition of full time employment that has been in place for decades, even a century, in order to introduce healthcare coverage? That's just asinine.

In my view, the ACA is a disaster and it won't or can't be fixed. It will so ruin the provision and coverage of healthcare in your country in the next few years that it will either be scrapped by way of a public uprising or it will be replaced by a government run universal plan similar to Canada's. The sooner your country gets rid of Obama or he gives up the ghost of his stupid plan, the better off your country and its economy will be.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

The fact that a loaf of bread goes up in price is exactly what inflation and inflation calculation is all about. But it's not one bit misleading. The fact that taxes have gone up for everyone just means that we all have to get by on less. After-tax income may have gone down for everyone, but that's not due to minimum wage not keeping up with inflation. That's due to us taxing and spending more for entitlement programs.

Keeping up with inflation isn't the total answer. You know that. A subsistence floor is a subsistence floor. Period. The ONLY thing that matters when trying to come up with a minimum wage one can actually "somewhat" live on is the bottom line.

You may have the last post on this. We're never going to agree.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

Keeping up with inflation isn't the total answer. You know that. A subsistence floor is a subsistence floor. Period. The ONLY thing that matters when trying to come up with a minimum wage one can actually "somewhat" live on is the bottom line.

You may have the last post on this. We're never going to agree.

Probably not going to agree for sure because you seem to think that minimum wage is actually designed to be a substistence wage and I don't think it is. With less than 3 percent of the working population making minimum wage, I don't think it's really too hard to see it for what it really is; a minimum wage instead of a living wage.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Obamacare - What would you like changed?

2. No piece of legislation will last and be supported if it requires the complete change and upheaval in the business and work environment as you contemplate in your "fixes" above. Why is it necessary to disrupt the standard work week and the definition of full time employment that has been in place for decades, even a century, in order to introduce healthcare coverage? That's just asinine.

But the one thing you DON'T know about the United States' tax code is that, in the past, for YEARS, the definition of full-time employment for the purposes of company perks WAS 20 hours. When did it change? Don't know. But wouldn't be surprised that it didn't change explicitly for Obamacare. Pension plans, company-paid health insurance, 401K's, etc., all previously defined "full-time employment" as 20 hours per week, including paid holidays and vacations. That was to keep greedy business owners from giving themselves all the perks, being able to write off HUGE chunks of their otherwise taxable income, and exclude their employees.

I know this is absolute truth because my company had to abide by the 20-hour rule when I established a defined benefit pension plan. It would have been sweet if just I had been able to do it. But that wasn't the law.